Trouble with Trak bed mill ways
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  1. #1
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    Default Trouble with Trak bed mill ways

    Hello, I am new to the forums but have been watching from the sidelines for years.
    Here is my question, we recently acquired a used 1997 trak dpm3 bed mill at work. The machine is extremely low hours and in very good condition, or so we thought, upon arrival in our shop we noticed the ways were pretty dry and the lube system seemed to be oiling only the head ways so we decided to tear the X and Y axes apart. What we found is very large amounts of rust damage to the flat ways of the table and pitting on the flat ways of the Y axis. The rust on the table ways was mostly built up rust and came off fairly easily but it damaged the turcite on the saddle. The Y axis flat ways were very pitted in the center and it will definitely need attention. I'm a pretty good scraper hand and can handle the turcite repair, what I'm wondering is has anyone attempted to scrape the hardened Y axis ways on a trak mill? How hard are they? They are box ways on the Y and I mic'd them, they are within .0005 parallelism so I'm hoping I can scrape them straight down a couple thou to clean up the pitting and then of course re fit the saddle etc. Any help is greatly appreciated. I will try to get pics when I get back to work after the weekend.

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    Better check with Charles if we can discuss a Asian Mill on here? I understand that is against forum rules.

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    A Trak Bed Mill ( TRAK Bed Mills : Products - Southwestern Industries, Inc. ) is a "real" machine, not a hobbyist tool. They've been talked about here before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Better check with Charles if we can discuss a Asian Mill on here? I understand that is against forum rules.
    Sure Richard, as suggested this is a popular machine and the repair will be applicable to other machines as well. The technique is more important than the actual machine.

    The only machines that we should not be discussing are the "mini" machines or the really cheap ones. These rules are forum rules by the way and are not specific to this subforum.

    I hope that Ironsmith will post many photos of his progress and how well his efforts work out?

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by CBlair View Post
    Sure Richard, as suggested this is a popular machine and the repair will be applicable to other machines as well. The technique is more important than the actual machine.

    The only machines that we should not be discussing are the "mini" machines or the really cheap ones. These rules are forum rules by the way and are not specific to this subforum.

    I hope that Ironsmith will post many photos of his progress and how well his efforts work out?

    Charles
    I would like to apologize for not reading through the rules of this thread fully, like I said I'm new so I'm still learning, bear with me! I appreciate the effort put forth to keep these forums from becoming "poluted" and will try to do my part. CBlair I will do the best I can to keep everyone up to date, pictures may be difficult as my shop technically doesn't allow cell phones, cameras etc. But they make exceptions occasionally. I have scraped hard ways before but not on a surface this size, I've read up on "the wreck" in the monarch forums and I tip my hat to the work done on that project, hopefully I can provide some good follow up on my progress. Again thanks to all who have posted.

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    I wanted Charles to clarify the rules before I said anything. I would like to see the pictures of the ways, but if the ways are flame hardened to Rc50 hardened and ground, they can't be scraped. Not even with carbide. You can scrape off rust, but to actually scrape like we do in cast iron or soft steel and are normal box ways with hardened ways is impossible. One could use a hand scraper to scrape rust off, but I don't want to hurt your feelings by saying that is not scraping, but we call that chicken scratching.

    Some of those imported machines with box ways are soft CI and ground and appear hardened but aren't. If the hard ways are rusted, remove the surface rust and scotch- brite them or fine emery-cloth. If it is a modern built machine it will have some sort of lube pump that is probably a low pressure BiJur type. Probably a Showa or Lube. Many assume they are not working as after you pull the lever it creeps out super slow through mini jets called metering units.

    I would pull it apart, being careful with the ball screw, so it stays together. Many times I wrape the open end with a few wraps of duc-tape and clean the ways, lube passages or oil grooves, be sure the lube system works prior to assembly. Lets see some more info and pictures. I see you close and only a few hours away. I am very curious who in Souix Falls has a way grinder? I know Prince industries once had one but i heard they sold it. Rich

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    Rich, thanks for your insight, I appreciate the experience I am tapping into here and will certainly respect it. I have the X and Y axes stripped to basic components, but don't worry we do lots of automation and retrofits at work, guide way reconditioning is a recent addition to our shop however. I'm not 100% sure these ways are hardened, I saw a pic on bridgeport rebuilders website of this very machine with its Y axis ways scraped, however the hss scraper I had at work at the time wouldn't touch it, could be a glazed grinding skin? I'll know more next week. Never heard of Prince, the closest grinder I know of is dales machines in hayti, sd. Thanks again!

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    I am pretty sure that the Y axis on my trak mill is chrome plated or something similar .

    Are we talking about a machine with "KR" cast into the column ,if so it is a King Rich made in Taiwan ,these are pretty good machines and there are huge numbers of them in the UK. It just occurred to me while typing that King Rich the other way around is Rich King !

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    If the surfaces are truly hard you could have a go with small hand grinder. Experiment on something small with different set ups (discs / stones / technique etc) As an experienced scraper hand i think you should be able to come up with something workable in no time, as you understand what youre trying achieve.

    Some food for thought.
    Marks lathe bed
    Using a grinder to 'scrape' a hardened part

    Progress in a hard material is rapid.

    Looking forward to any pics you sneak out the workshops.

    Cheers D

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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsmith89 View Post
    Rich, thanks for your insight, I appreciate the experience I am tapping into here and will certainly respect it. I have the X and Y axes stripped to basic components, but don't worry we do lots of automation and retrofits at work, guide way reconditioning is a recent addition to our shop however. I'm not 100% sure these ways are hardened, I saw a pic on bridgeport rebuilders website of this very machine with its Y axis ways scraped, however the hss scraper I had at work at the time wouldn't touch it, could be a glazed grinding skin? I'll know more next week. Never heard of Prince, the closest grinder I know of is dales machines in hayti, sd. Thanks again!
    I know of his grinder..its a planer with a Bridgeport or make-shift head, using a cup wheel if i remember right. I taught a scraping class at Bemis Bag from Fergus Falls and they sent him a Fadal VMC, table and saddle we rebuild and it took for-ever and in my opinion was a lousy job. Rich

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    If the surfaces are truly hard you could have a go with small hand grinder. Experiment on something small with different set ups (discs / stones / technique etc) As an experienced scraper hand i think you should be able to come up with something workable in no time, as you understand what youre trying achieve.

    Some food for thought.
    Marks lathe bed
    Using a grinder to 'scrape' a hardened part

    Progress in a hard material is rapid.

    Looking forward to any pics you sneak out the workshops.

    Cheers D
    If it's a flash chromed way, then using the air grinder is not an option and you will grind though the chrome and it will peel up and snowball into gualling. I have been in the KingRich factory in Taiwan. Small world. I have a pictures someplace with me standing next to the president of KingRich...I had students from that company go through my classes at PMC in Taichung.

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    Ironsmith, even if you cant get photos keep us informed of how it goes. It might be very good for others to know if the ways are hardened or chromed or not. There are always more than one way to skin a cat, I vow to never find the worst way! Good luck and have a great weekend.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I know of his grinder..its a planer with a Bridgeport or make-shift head, using a cup wheel if i remember right. I taught a scraping class at Bemis Bag from Fergus Falls and they sent him a Fadal VMC, table and saddle we rebuild and it took for-ever and in my opinion was a lousy job. Rich
    Yes, I too have had the pleasure of seeing this "grinder" and have had to rework some of its "art" at work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    If it's a flash chromed way, then using the air grinder is not an option and you will grind though the chrome and it will peel up and snowball into gualling.
    I was thinking a flame hardened way type scenario rather than a coated finish. For sure is a good point. Im guessing the only fix for a blown chromed way is strip / get flat and rechrome (or not)

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    This surface is not a chromed surface, I made a point to check for that, I have a friend who just did a series 2 bridgeport and we used muriatic acid to strip the chrome as per recommendation by our local plater. The ways were then scraped, no flaking, and left this way. I'm sure it won't last quite as long as the original chrome surface but as a hobby machine this is probably as good as it gets. I hope the trak ways will "react" to my carbide scraper tomorrow, otherwise it's off to a grinder. I have had bad grind jobs resist a hss blade due to a glazed skin from a dull wheel, hopefully this machine is one of those as bad as it sounds lol.

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    TRAK Bed Mills : Products - Southwestern Industries, Inc.

    I have a 1999 version of this same mill.
    the website says, "Wide way surfaces that are hardened and ground, slideways are Turcite® coated."

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    Carl, thanks for your research. I was afraid they were hardened. Quick tests last Friday showed a file could knock the corners off the ways with moderate force but my hss scraper wouldn't touch it. I'm technically hired as a lathe operator so most of my scraping equipment is left at home, tomorrow I'll take a lick In an inconspicuous corner with a carbide scraper as one more test of hope (fingers crossed) otherwise it's up the the owner as to what happens next. He really wants me to scrape it to save on the down time of sending it out for a re grind, but if that's what it takes we'll gnaw on that bullet. Thanks again for all the help you guys are putting forth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsmith89 View Post
    Carl, thanks for your research. I was afraid they were hardened. Quick tests last Friday showed a file could knock the corners off the ways with moderate force but my hss scraper wouldn't touch it. I'm technically hired as a lathe operator so most of my scraping equipment is left at home, tomorrow I'll take a lick In an inconspicuous corner with a carbide scraper as one more test of hope (fingers crossed) otherwise it's up the the owner as to what happens next. He really wants me to scrape it to save on the down time of sending it out for a re grind, but if that's what it takes we'll gnaw on that bullet. Thanks again for all the help you guys are putting forth.
    If the carbide 'doesnt cut it' (sorry, couldnt resist ). How about taking a piece of scrap and go at it with a small hand held grinder, whatever youve got laying around. Leave any bias or current beliefs on the shelf and just give it a try.
    The worst that can happen is it will be 30mins wasted...
    The best? You might look down at that 20ppi youve just carved outta that scrap, conclude that it may actually be possible, grind that machine back into shape to the disbelief of all, have the boss scatter rose petals at your feet when you stroll into work the next day. Or realising that all of that nonsense dont matter none, be content that youve just added another string to your bow.

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    Okay, update on the trak mill. My boss at work is trying to negotiate with the dealer who sold us the machine. We paid a "premium like new" price for this machine and that's clearly not what we got. The dealer has made it clear they don't want the machine back but they refuse to give compensation for the damage. They were very angry with us for disassembling the machine, which to me means there was something they didn't want us to find. I'll post some pics of the damage, which the dealer claims is not that bad and just needs simple cleaning, I'll let you be the judge. Meanwhile I tested the carbide blade on the ways and it cuts but I can tell it wouldn't be fun. If we receive compensation for the damage this will be sent out and ground, any recommendations for shops near Sioux falls, sd?uploadfromtaptalk1409702586653.jpguploadfromtaptalk1409702607353.jpguploadfromtaptalk1409702620123.jpguploadfromtaptalk1409702633423.jpguploadfromtaptalk1409702643473.jpg

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    And some pictures before cleaning as the machine came.uploadfromtaptalk1409703960537.jpguploadfromtaptalk1409703968990.jpguploadfromtaptalk1409703976490.jpg


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