Turcite/Rulon vs using bronze
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    Default Turcite/Rulon vs using bronze

    Still reading and researching quite a bit. Assume I know zero.

    I know turcite and/or rulon has been used quite extensively, has very good longevity. And atleast some grades have bronze impregnated into it.

    I was curious if there was any reasons not to use let's say 932 bronze flat plate to build up saddles, cross slides etc. I'd imagine you could glue it down in similar fashion, mill, scrape, and flake it.

    Any up or downsides that I'm missing ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Still reading and researching quite a bit. Assume I know zero.

    I know turcite and/or rulon has been used quite extensively, has very good longevity. And atleast some grades have bronze impregnated into it.

    I was curious if there was any reasons not to use let's say 932 bronze flat plate to build up saddles, cross slides etc. I'd imagine you could glue it down in similar fashion, mill, scrape, and flake it.

    Any up or downsides that I'm missing ?
    Cheaper to correct "sub-optimal work" with Bronze. And it can be used SCARY thin. Even plated onto CI at anywhere from a mere flash to as much as a third of an inch thick.

    The "miracle plastics" need minimum thickness plus (Rulon, Turcite) a glue-line, Moglice is its OWN adhesive. All have minimums, regardless.

    The plastics have fillers carefully selected to reduce the massive thermal coefficent of expansion difference to a CI host. Bronze ain't identical to CI, but it is waaay TF closer. So .... severe enough winter/summer weather or infrequently utilized hobbyist environment machine tools?

    The plastics can be forgiven for de-bonding, now and then.

    The Bronzes, OTOH, can actually be permitted to "float" a tad. "Trapped" or Bronze/Brass pinned at but one END is good enuf. Gravity is pretty damned reliable stuff.

    Grab you a 12-pack for about a hundred bucks off MMC. Experiment with the various thicknesses. Machine tool ways only need rather narrow strips. Even the modern equivalent of Goodyear's classical "Pliobond" contact cement can adhere a strip, you work it clean enuf.

    And it is a "Very Good Idea" to have that sort of variety-pack of shim-stock handy, any shop, regardless.

    Bronze is easy to "undo" it if yah mess it up. Same again a re-do, years later.

    What have you to lose for trying ..what the Old Skewl "masters" HAD to use.. ages BEFORE "miracle plastics" ...or even War One era "grade phenolics" even existed?

    Keep it cheap and cheerful. The target machine-tool ain't worth but so much, regardless.
    Settle for 80% of the gain at 20% of the time and money.

    Some pompussity as makes his LIVING teaching perfect scraping calls it a crude redneck monkey patch?

    Don't argue. Just "snile". Agree with the bystanding critic. Cheap enuf'

    Buy some nice tooling off the time and money saved. Keep on makin' chips several MONTHS earlier, if not a whole dam' year or more spent "practicing" a trade you ain't planning to take up as a career ennyway.

    I mean.. look how dam' CROTCHETY it can make a body, scraping as a life work, first on metal, then on plastics, then scraping on the generosity, tolerance, and inherent good nature of other human beings ... 'til yah dam' near draw blood?

    Why wuddja wanna do that?


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Cheaper to correct "sub-optimal work" with Bronze. And it can be used SCARY thin. Even plated onto CI at anywhere from a mere flash to as much as a third of an inch thick.

    The plastics have fillers carefully selected to reduce the massive thermal coefficent of expansion difference to a CI host. Bronze ain't identical to CI, but it is waaay TF closer. So .... severe enough winter/summer weather or infrequently utilized hobbyist environment machine tools?

    The Bronzes, OTOH, can actually be permitted to "float" a tad. "Trapped" or Bronze/Brass pinned at but one END is good enuf. Gravity is pretty damned reliable stuff.

    Bronze is easy to "undo" it if yah mess it up. Same again a re-do, years later.

    What have you to lose for trying ..what the Old Skewl "masters" HAD to use.. ages BEFORE "miracle plastics" ...or even War One era "grade phenolics" even existed?
    With a lot of name machines, and builders using turcite or rulon. No doubt there must be some benefit, and it must hold up well.

    Not having used it, my knee jerk reaction is I would prefer to use or keep metal surfaces. Having worked with bronze for shaft bearings, I find it easy to work with. Plus with lube it can hold up quite well too.

    From what I've read, I'm thinking half moon flaking might work better on bronze as well.

    I think you might have a point with pinning it on one end. In my head, I had been thinking I would pin both ends, plus glue it. I don't typically have extremes in temperature in my shop, but pinning one end could preempt a problem there.

    I've been gathering some tooling and supplies to give it my first shot. Hopefully I won't have any funny pics or stories.

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    I have and old 18" American that the saddle is very badly worn and was thinking about that very thing. Just use flat cs brass screws to retain them. Seen it done and makes sense.When the bronze wears down enough the screws just become part of the bearing, also done on band and brake shoes.
    We have had several metal flame spray outfits here and I had forgot about until recently where I needed to build up some very soft expensive tubes with a 60 rc coating.

    In doing my research I didn't realize that there so many different powders available including bronzes.
    That may be an alternative.
    As for the non metals I think the fact that they don't have a natural affinity for the metals they run against makes them last longer in a lot of cases.

    The first time I came across non metal bearings was in 66 at the Chevy dealership I worked at.Mechanic wanted some kingpins and bushings for a 60 series truck.Parts book showed Nylon or bronze? The old guy had never heard of such. When I started thinking of using plastics later on I remembered that and thought GM surely did their home work before they allowed their use on a 60sr truck steering.

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    Ampco 18 has been used heavily for such a purpose for many years. I believe in some applications it still has its advantages. It's hard and fairly slippery but the stick slip is still too high for most CNC equipment. However due to its compressive strength and hardness it has good rigidity and would run dry better than iron on iron. Turcite/Rulon has vastly different properties. It is self lubricating, the static and dynamic coefficients of friction are nearly identical so no stick slip can develop. It also has higher PV ratings so higher speeds can be obtained without excessive wear and heat. However, it is soft, and cold flows easily. Machines designed for it take this into account. The Mfg's of these polymers will tell you more PSI (smaller surface area) is better for friction properties and that is true, but my experience has taught me it wont last as long as iron or bronze in that setting. However it will perform better (fricton wise) all along. It does have the huge advantage that it's easy to bond and scrape and it tends to be much friendlier on it's running surface, which means subsequent rebuilds are cheaper. Bronze liners and even cast iron liners are not nearly as friendly to work with as far as bonding goes, but are stiffer. This makes them better suited on manual equipment in my opinion, plus the hardness of these materials helps them become hydrodynamic much easier and at lower speeds, which is a zero wear condition. Surface grinder tables and lathe saddles are places where slides commonly go hydrodynamic. It all boils down to application. Box way CNC lathe in a production shop, I'd choose Rulon. Monarch lathe, 32" swing for heavy turning, I'd choose ampco 18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsmith89 View Post
    Monarch lathe, 32" swing for heavy turning, I'd choose ampco 18.
    Happens I stock Ampco. If yer going to use it for a wear strip? Make DAMNED sure it gets good lube! Airbus once failed to do. An aircraft lost a major control surface. Folks died. It can be just that NASTY in a dry-bearing.

    What I'd like to TRY, but probably will run out of time, gumption, need, or all of the above before it ever happens.. is Chrysler (originally...) Oilite II, Oilite 16. Copper-IRON Bronzes.

    But still with the classical sintered structure that produces around 30% "void" of open channels to hold an oil and/or pass it.

    Put the machine-tool's lube channels to the back or "fixed" side of it? The entire wear-face stays oil-wetted. Even for VERY looong periods between refresh/flush of the oil supply. Because.. in MOST uses, it never gets any more oil than it had in it the day it was installed, anyway.

    The creation of a Bronze with Iron rather than Tin as Copper's partner makes for a hard surface and very high load capacity. But the retained oil means never a "dry" one. "Retained" is what Oilites "just do", and why they exist and have endured.

    The Copper-Tin ones we are far more familiar with are just not as well suited for use on ways.

    The surface velocity of traverse spec @ given loads - same as you alluded to for the other materials as a factor to pay attention to - is published, and seems more than adequate for all-manual machine tool way loads and rates of traverse.

    The more common applications have been, and remain "round' bearings on pump shafts & c. The earliest use, 1930's, and why Chrysler was even the inventor in the first place was for lower-maintenance install and forget seal/bearings for automotive water pumps. And "not ony".

    So it has been in-use and has proven good for over 70 years, already.

    Oilite(R) -Superior Synthetic Performance Difference(R) Sleeve & Flange Bearings, Lubricants, Flexible Couplings - Beemer Precision, Inc.

    The barriers?

    - Not EASY to obtain in long, narrow, flat plate instead of dead-common solid or hollow ROUNDS and ready-mades.

    - Machines readly enough, but .. even SHARP HSS can "smear" the voids partially closed.

    I am "of the opinion", largely off the back of a SWAG, (and work with the tin-Bronze flavour..) that leaching out the oil charge first, machining it, acid-etching the smear's off to insure voids are clear, THEN flushing and re-loading the initial oil charge can take care of that.

    Surely HOPE, that as with most thing, some other Pilgrim - or whole tribe of - is a long ways ahead of ME.. and the results are already known, just have to be found and reviewed to see if there is meat on that bone.

    Or was-never.

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    I would comment, but won't. You can trust Iron Smith, He is an excellent professional rebuilder. If you want my opinion email me. [email protected]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I would comment, but won't.
    LOL! Cute! You keep sayin' that.... while so doing!



    No fear. Stick to what YOU know. It works well.

    Some among as are just more curious and prefer to take a risk. Even if our choice of dice-roll doesn't win.

    We are NOT "professional rebuilders", y'see.

    Whatever ELSE we are?

    Could be the reason we can better AFFORD to take the odd risk?


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    I'm always amazed at how hard it is for really smart people to work together.

    There's a meme that pops into my head pretty often when going through the forums.

    350.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsmith89 View Post
    Ampco 18 has been used heavily for such a purpose for many years. I believe in some applications it still has its advantages. It's hard and fairly slippery but the stick slip is still too high for most CNC equipment. However due to its compressive strength and hardness it has good rigidity and would run dry better than iron on iron. Turcite/Rulon has vastly different properties. It is self lubricating, the static and dynamic coefficients of friction are nearly identical so no stick slip can develop. It also has higher PV ratings so higher speeds can be obtained without excessive wear and heat. However, it is soft, and cold flows easily.

    Monarch lathe, 32" swing for heavy turning, I'd choose ampco 18.
    I didn't know what Ampco 18 was. Had to read up on it a bit. It seems its a proprietary metal, Aluminum bronze mix. Which can be had as extruded, forged etc. Also some variations with 18, 18.22, 18.23, and 18.136.

    Available, but maybe not as widely as other bronze. Maybe specific dealers ? Any suggested vendors to get it from ?

    A bit easier for me to get in aluminum bronze would be 954, any opinions ?

    I'd be curious opinions on Phosphor Bronze 544 also.

    My first thought was 932 bronze with its lead content. Softer but more anti friction and could survive less lube I think.

    The project I have in mind is actually a Monarch, but a 61 series 16" swing. I dont know thickness numbers yet, but I suspect I will be building up the carriage and cross slide. The parts will be lubed prior to each operation, but not continuous oil flow. I've changed carriage lube system to not be fed from apron. The cross slide was/is lubed through grease fittings where I have a special oil can with a grease gun end on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I didn't know what Ampco 18 was. Had to read up on it a bit. It seems its a proprietary metal, Aluminum bronze mix. Which can be had as extruded, forged etc. Also some variations with 18, 18.22, 18.23, and 18.136.

    Available, but maybe not as widely as other bronze. Maybe specific dealers ? Any suggested vendors to get it from ?
    if/as/when they actually HAVE any, I've been getting round bar and flat plate from a remainderman/salvager, Moses Glick, directly online, who also have an eBay storefront.

    Last order was a four lineal foot run cut into 2 by 2-foot long plates (shipping was easier), 1/4" thick, 3" wide.

    Glick have all manner of drops and stuff, some of it weird alloys, but it all depends on whatever they have salvaged, any given period in time.

    Otherwise, check Speedy, Online and a couple of the other "usual suspects" who sell into small orders by the foot or even inch.

    Only a few of the "majors" can be bothered with small orders, and even then usually for "registered" customers who do a significant dollar total a year.

    What is under both 10EE NOW is just slices off the MMC 12" X 12" "assortment" shim pack. One size is actually Brass not Bronze in that pack. Brass is only for "decoration", my view of metalregurgitry. It has Zinc in it, so not on my dance card for anything important.

    "Monel" and Cupro-Nickel cousins might also be a candidate? Was once a major contributor to rifle projectile jacketing at "extreme pressure" dry, high velocity. Mind a boolit only had to make the ONE trip! But the barrels did OK.

    We used a LOT of Monel on the farm for the milk, butter, and cheese as part of the dairying "back in the day".

    Monel was found as a natural alloy off that massive astral body that smacked out Hudsons Bay plus-plus (3 impactors off the Roche limit breakup was it?).. and left that part of Uppa yew ess South of and on the Great Lakes area & Canada up to Sudbury and not-only so metals minerals rich. Same area fueled the Copper age, then Bronze age for the Med and Europe, early-early history.

    Columbus hadn't been such a good salesman but half-assed mariner, he'd have hit the St. Lawrence off the ancient metals-trade route maps his brother had scrounged for him instead of getting lost and ending up clear down in the Caribbean!



    Monel - Wikipedia

    Accordingly, Monel predated "rustless iron" / Allegheny Metal by about ten years in theory by patent dates, but closer to forty or fifty years before it saw common use. As-in wherever tinplate, galvanized, nor brass or Copper just would not do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I've changed carriage lube system to not be fed from apron. The cross slide was/is lubed through grease fittings where I have a special oil can with a grease gun end on it.
    I'd be interested in some pictures of your modifications. I've been considering doing the same. I have a mid 30s RP with manual oilers on the saddle and it works great. For those hobbyists among us a bit of manual oiling before each use is a definite advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marka12161 View Post
    I'd be interested in some pictures of your modifications. I've been considering doing the same. I have a mid 30s RP with manual oilers on the saddle and it works great. For those hobbyists among us a bit of manual oiling before each use is a definite advantage.
    IIRC, he put LOTS of pictures into the thread on it. "Right here, on PM".

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    Quote Originally Posted by marka12161 View Post
    I'd be interested in some pictures of your modifications. I've been considering doing the same. I have a mid 30s RP with manual oilers on the saddle and it works great. For those hobbyists among us a bit of manual oiling before each use is a definite advantage.
    My write up on it is a little long, and pic heavy. Starts about here:
    Getting a Monarch Series 61 Back in Service

    Basically I removed and capped off the oil feed line in carriage. I un-capped a port in an oil manifold in another location of carriage to bring in the new oil supply. I will also cap off the feed inside of apron, when I get to tearing down apron.

    Externally I will mount an oil reservoir and use a hand pump mounted to tail stock base, The pump you can see here:
    Getting a Monarch Series 61 Back in Service

    My initial plan was basically a clean and lube when buying this machine, with some smaller repairs. I got delayed to finish another machine by several months. I kind of regret not do some scraping on previous machines. And this Monarch I plan as a long term keeper, I really like it. With that delay time, I've had more time to consider and research what I'd like to do. So I figure I'm going to try up my game, and go a little further with it.

    I've got some straight edges coming in, and some other supplies. Richard was actually kind enough to call me twice last week and gave me advice on various means of hand scraping and a variety of different tooling from building my own to store bought. I opted for time saving, and placed an order with Dapra. So hopefully before too long the saga will continue.

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    Ampco 18 is not scraper friendly and need good lube. Good for pivot pins if kept lubed.

    We had a maintenance manager that thought everything should be hardened and substituted Ampco for 660 bronze in crank bearings.(100 - 120 rpm) Fine until there was a lube failure. It would either weld to the journal or tear up the shaft. This was 30 some years ago and the cranks were 30K.
    I spent alot of time sanding the journals to try and salvage them. Make the bearing the consumable part not the way.

    Dave

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    I would have thought the major advantage of " Rulon/Turcite/Shamban " is it can be applied quite thinly. We always used 1/8" or 3mm thickness but I know you could get much thinner sections. With brass you'd need maybe 1/4" thickness, possibly 3/16" at a pinch. Back in the day, when we fitted " Ferrobestos " to the ways, it was in lengths that were usually 1/4" thick.

    The thicker the material the more you have to remove from the machine casting in preparation.

    Having said all that I was working in the days when the fancy adhesives we have today were in their infancy and the strips couldn't be just glued on.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    This is just my opinion. I think the non metalic materials are used due to their low coefficient of friction. CNC's move at lightning speeds and stick/slip is a big concern when holding jig borer like accuracy. I would think brass would be fine for a manual machine.

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    Shim stock is great for estimating the amount of wear when you are inspecting the machine and trying to get your game plan together. The problem with trying to use it to build up a worn surface, is that the surfaces didn't wear evenly.
    This means that the leading edge of your apron, or tailstock, etc usually has more wear than the middle. If you compare the unworn areas versus the sliding surfaces it becomes obvious.
    If you pin or glue shim stock to these curved surfaces you now have regained the lost height, but the fit still sucks. The correct approach is to mill/grind/scrape them flat and aligned. Then use something to shim them back up, or lower the other part into alignment.
    Rulon/turcite is actually made for this exact application, so it shouldn't be surprising that it works well! It is surprisingly soft and scrapes really easily. It's also available by the inch from a lot of sellers on Ebay so even though it seems expensive compared to brass shim stock you are money ahead if your time is worth anything at all.
    You should definitely carefully consider how thick your repair will be when finished scraped. The oiling grooves should be contained within the repair material instead of slotting thru it into the cast iron beneath. I included some of the instructions below
    https://www.aetnaplastics.com/site_m...Brochure_1.pdf
    Hahn Rossman

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    Quote Originally Posted by winger View Post
    Ampco 18 is not scraper friendly and need good lube. Good for pivot pins if kept lubed.

    We had a maintenance manager that thought everything should be hardened and substituted Ampco for 660 bronze in crank bearings.(100 - 120 rpm) Fine until there was a lube failure. It would either weld to the journal or tear up the shaft. This was 30 some years ago and the cranks were 30K.
    I spent alot of time sanding the journals to try and salvage them. Make the bearing the consumable part not the way.

    Dave
    LOL! Not a laughing matter, actually.

    But I should clarify.. These two 1/4" by 3" plates I mentioned?

    They were purchased to make new operating HANDLES.. for the 10EE's power surfacing feed clutches on the apron. Not for the friction faces inside the clutches!

    The part your grubby hands grab.

    That Bronze is also a "biocide". Kills bacteria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hahn_rossman View Post
    Shim stock is great for estimating the amount of wear when you are inspecting the machine and trying to get your game plan together. The problem with trying to use it to build up a worn surface, is that the surfaces didn't wear evenly.
    Of course not. On the machines in question, the wear on the softer CI of the underside of the saddle is several times as severe as that on the ways.

    And that is the general case. In the "real world" it is less on a 12 X 20 10EE because the saddle and its "wings" are actually a skosh longer than the 20" worth of traverse.

    Look at a(ny) longer-bed lathe.. the ways are far longer than even a wide carriege. That unfavorable ratio puts more wear onto the carriage underide even IF it was as hard as the ways. And it is not.

    Worse? Look at an El Cheapo Asian hobby-grade lathe such as a "Precision Matthews" that is trying to maximize traverse within an overall length and keep the weight down..AND has its HS, TS, and toolpost "jacked up" in the sand. Their carriages are very SHORT or "narrow". The lesser bearing surface, lesser "lever arm" narrow carriages want to "tip" left or right far more as they work under load. So their "rocking horse" curve of wear gets "worser sooner". Very VERY "sooner" if ever they were to attempt "industrial grade" working.



    If you pin or glue shim stock to these curved surfaces you now have regained the lost height, but the fit still sucks.
    Surely it would. IF you just laid a single thickness flat to the curve as worn, yes.

    Just don't do that. You do not have to.

    One can "shim the shim" in steps. The "center" is meant to not bear the same in any case. Scraperater folk relieve it a skosh when working directly to CI when new.

    So there are SIX wear surfaces in effect.

    - Left, right, (relieved center between) on the flat is two.

    - Left-right, (relieved center between) on each face of the inverted Vee is four more.

    Soo.. one may apply a filler/bonding plastic BETWEEN the bronze wear strip and the CI underside of the saddle.

    Nice if it is milled flat first. But it need not be.

    IF... the Bronze wear strip is formed flat and compliant to the ways - it is now as if it was the way. Same plane.

    Fill between the Bronze and the worn CI? That corrects the variance in the gap.

    Just with a plastic cheaper and more easily had, easier to work with than Moglice.
    Because it does NOT have to also BE the "wear strip" at all.

    Call that "division of labour". The Bronze takes the wear. The adhesive/filler adjusts the gap. Pre-milling now optional.

    We get to use these machines by keeping the cost and time within the bounds of what we can afford. Not what we only WISH we could afford.

    Building 80 years worth of goodness back into an 80 year old machine may give the MACHINE 80 years. Or 800 years, given it is no longer in 3 shift War work.

    But I have only 20 years. At best. So why would I?

    If I were running a revenue business and really needed "as new"?
    I'd buy new.

    And go like the very hammers of Hell itself to TRY to wear it out in FIVE years. Or less.

    So it had made a nice profit ...as well as the price of an even BETTER replacement. That's how you build wealth.

    And reduce the risk involved with the "as"(s) part of not-really-new!
    Some OTHER part of that old machine with "as new" ways can bust your as(s)-pirations in a New York MINUTE!

    We need to strike a more reasonable risk/reward balance than investing multiple thousands of dollars in scraping classes, months if not years of our lives doing scrapimg.. only to cry as $1,000 to $3,000 worth of new spindle bearings call for THEIR share of economic ransom.

    Can't have everything. Not "all the time", anyway. It all has a price of time, money, or both!

    BTW: "Brass" has no place here. Bronze is not interchangeable with Brass- nor the reverse - just because neither one is Iron.

  29. Likes texasgunsmith liked this post

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