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What to do with worn hardend ways and Grinding ways

Richard King

Diamond
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Location
Cottage Grove, MN 55016
I see this question all the time and I will tell you how I have done it. One is simple you send it to a company like Cash has and they grind it on a way grinder. We did a thread a couple of years ago that will help you if you can dismantle your machine
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...n/large-capacity-grinding-company-usa-319232/

But what if you cant send it out or have an emergency?

I have a few methods that worked for me over the years. Had to have been around 10 years ago I went down to Cloyes Gear in Paris Arkansas to teach a 1 week scraping class to the maintenance department. It is a pretty big company. During the class the production shop foreman asked me to come and advise them on what they could do with a CNC slant bed lathe out in the shop. I walked over there and there sat a Japanese lathe they were running and the shut it down, removed the way covers and the Z and X Axis and they were box ways and were worn about .010" in the center and the ends were original. They had run the same production part on the machine 24/7 for about 5 years and when they wanted to change parts and couldn't.


I said the machine needed to be taken apart and sent out. They said they couldn't stop production in the plant because that machine was buried in the middle of the shop in a cell. I told them I could make it better then it was but the repair had some drawbacks. They said to go for it. I had the 2nd shift pull the machine apart and the next day I took the class out to the shop and we started to grind the worn hardened ways by angle grinder using 2" disk 60 grit pads. We used the same method I call "Blind Scraping" and that's when you spread highlighter Yellow Canode or in the old days we used red lead. This covers the surface with a light film and when you grind or scrape that area it goes away and it comes down evenly.

We used that method until the ways mic'ed with-in .001 and then we blued up a straight edge and grind off the blue spots until it was flat and with-in .0002" on average. We had a few low spots as you will have a few accidents when grinding. The long and short of it we used a small hand held angle grinder to grind the hardened ways to get them flat. There are a few You Tube shows on this Chris German who goes by CGPrecision on there is Ironsmith on PM ground a machine with a hand air grinder and cut of wheel.
Hand grinding hardened ways - YouTube works pretty slick.
 
I worked with an old black smith who would do much the same..but he would Dikem die the part and then hand grin at the high places. He could get .001 or so with eyeball grinding. Plus he was a master welder and could build up cast iron. only guy I ever met who could do that.
 
I follow this guy on YouTube. He specializes in rebuilding Russian made engine lathes. They hand scrape the hard bed ways (hand scrape, no Biax). The dialog is all in Ukrainian, but I translated some of the comments. He says that it's less expensive to scrape than to send out for grinding.

They don't use Turcite either. They seem to use some kind of white plastic, possibly teflon, to build up worn ways. They use some kind of glue and brass pins to hold it on.

Pretty interesting to watch his videos. He does each lathe the same way. They scrape the bed using some kind of light weight straight edge and a sled. Then build up the carriage with plastic and scrape it. Scrape cross slide and build it up with plastic. Then they bore out the tailstock and fit an oversize quill. They seem to do a lot spindle bearings too.

 
I see this question all the time and I will tell you how I have done it. One is simple you send it to a company like Cash has and they grind it on a way grinder. We did a thread a couple of years ago that will help you if you can dismantle your machine
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...n/large-capacity-grinding-company-usa-319232/

But what if you cant send it out or have an emergency?

I have a few methods that worked for me over the years. Had to have been around 10 years ago I went down to Cloyes Gear in Paris Arkansas to teach a 1 week scraping class to the maintenance department. It is a pretty big company. During the class the production shop foreman asked me to come and advise them on what they could do with a CNC slant bed lathe out in the shop. I walked over there and there sat a Japanese lathe they were running and the shut it down, removed the way covers and the Z and X Axis and they were box ways and were worn about .010" in the center and the ends were original. They had run the same production part on the machine 24/7 for about 5 years and when they wanted to change parts and couldn't.


I said the machine needed to be taken apart and sent out. They said they couldn't stop production in the plant because that machine was buried in the middle of the shop in a cell. I told them I could make it better then it was but the repair had some drawbacks. They said to go for it. I had the 2nd shift pull the machine apart and the next day I took the class out to the shop and we started to grind the worn hardened ways by angle grinder using 2" disk 60 grit pads. We used the same method I call "Blind Scraping" and that's when you spread highlighter Yellow Canode or in the old days we used red lead. This covers the surface with a light film and when you grind or scrape that area it goes away and it comes down evenly.

We used that method until the ways mic'ed with-in .001 and then we blued up a straight edge and grind off the blue spots until it was flat and with-in .0002" on average. We had a few low spots as you will have a few accidents when grinding. The long and short of it we used a small hand held angle grinder to grind the hardened ways to get them flat. There are a few You Tube shows on this Chris German who goes by CGPrecision on there is Ironsmith on PM ground a machine with a hand air grinder and cut of wheel.
Hand grinding hardened ways - YouTube works pretty slick.

I know you know what you are doing so please don't think I am doubting or questioning you but the thought of seeing a man take an angle grinder to a lathe's bedways turns my stomach. I guess in a large shop a machine is a much less precious thing than it is to a small timer like myself.

So to be clear did you just grind down the unworn ways to the average level of the worn area? What are the drawbacks you mentioned to this method?
 
They use that white plastic in Germany too, plus another type of Moglice. Next time you get a Leblonde or Monarch lathe in Wes, try to scrape the rails. I can't imagine hand scraping hard beds. I have tried power scraping every which way hardened ways and it just scratches the surface. I wonder what rockwell it is? The brothers in Austria will know that brand name of that plastic I bet. They emailed the name to me once before, but I accidentally deleted some old emails.

I will send a link to the Sales Manager at Biax Germany as he is Russian and see if he can translate it.

I once rebuilt a 96" Blanchard and a 600 ton extrusion press, both had soft ways and it was imposible to rig them out of the factories to get them machined. So we ground them with 8" electric angle grinders to get them close and then we power scraped them. :-)

Lowering the bed and re-boring the tail-stock may work, At Defense Logistics East in Mechanicsburg PA bores out the TS and Mogliced a round ground to a super finish test bar that is make so a new quill fits it. Like we say...Always 2 ways to skin a cat. It seems pretty crude over there in Russia. I hired a Ukraine immigrant years ago and he was an amazing hand scraper. He worked in a factory in Kiev and one side of the factory made tanks and the other side made pots and pans. I could tell some wild stories about Semyon Morgovsky some day.. lol
 
I know you know what you are doing so please don't think I am doubting or questioning you but the thought of seeing a man take an angle grinder to a lathe's bedways turns my stomach. I guess in a large shop a machine is a much less precious thing than it is to a small timer like myself.

So to be clear did you just grind down the unworn ways to the average level of the worn area? What are the drawbacks you mentioned to this method?


As I said I told them to rig out the machine first and they couldn't. When you have a proction shop and your machine is out .010 yo will do what it takes to get the machine back in business ASAP. Production shops are a different animal then a hobbyshop or a machine shop that has time to do it right.

The drawback is the surface is no longer smooth like a ground surface, you can get a few deeper holes when the grinder dug it, your grinding on a lathe and grit flies everywhere, the wipers may not work as well as before. We did the 2nd class rebuild in 4 days and the machine was up and running cutting good parts. If we had snaked it out of the shop and had it done the right way it would have been gone 6 weeks if we were lucky
 
I follow this guy on YouTube. He specializes in rebuilding Russian made engine lathes. They hand scrape the hard bed ways (hand scrape, no Biax). The dialog is all in Ukrainian, but I translated some of the comments. He says that it's less expensive to scrape than to send out for grinding.

They don't use Turcite either. They seem to use some kind of white plastic, possibly teflon, to build up worn ways. They use some kind of glue and brass pins to hold it on.

Pretty interesting to watch his videos. He does each lathe the same way. They scrape the bed using some kind of light weight straight edge and a sled. Then build up the carriage with plastic and scrape it. Scrape cross slide and build it up with plastic. Then they bore out the tailstock and fit an oversize quill. They seem to do a lot spindle bearings too.


I looked at it again...and if Isaw that in a class I would walk up behind them and go Bok Bok Bok....chicken scratching...lol Did you see the way he laid the straight edge in the middle....lol.... But if they had a machine that was worn .010" and they got it better then .001" more power to them.

Another thing if you have never seen good scraping then you think any scraping is wonderful. Had a customer tell me once he hired a rebuilder to scrape in a lathe cross-slide and the shop owner was there on a Saturday in his jeans and tee shirt. The rebuilders helper thought he was a peon and said " most owners think we are the best scrapers in the world, but we just do it good enough to get paid". The owner through the company out the door and told the owner to sue him for the money!
 
I don't want to get into a pissing match, but how good does it really need to be? It's a clapped out Russian lathe. I'm sure anything they do to it is an improvement.

From watching his videos, it seems many of the shops he visits have no heat, little to no light, poor quality floors (some are brick), and there doesn't seem to be much infrastructure there.
 
I am just talking....It seems you have matured now that you own your own company and I have mellowed seeing your staring to get it. The Blanchard repair you did last year looked super. You posted something and I said something, I posted something and you commented...no arguing from me.
 
I've posted the pictures before, so won't bother again. When I did the milling machine table I marked out the ten thou curvature along the bed in 1 thou steps using a dial height gauge and the surface table, and a sharpie! Knowing that I got a quarter of a thou constistantly without pushing too hard, I blind step scraped the table to the point where I could use the surface plate to get a bearing.

On the hardened HLV bed I used a Dremmel/Proxxon clone. A die grinder would work just as well but is a bit heavier. I've used my electric die grinder for similar work as well and the extra weight makes a difference with the way you need to control the cut. You can get any depth of cut you want from carbide burs, through several grades of abrasive points, to Cratex points, even to felt mops and rouge if you are working on a mirror.

Blind step scraping is one of the techniques needed for roughing. It doesn't have to be that blind, you can still use a dial gauge and a flat foot to check progress, but you aren't looking for bearing points yet. Similarly, using a hand grinder of whatever type on hardened ways is just another tool to get the job done. If you can get the right abrasives and the right technique it's a lifesaver when you can't get the machine to an outside way grinder.

This from an amatuer that's done a total of five machines so far...
 
I've never "scraped" with a grinder before, but I imagine it would be hard to control your depth, and not just for the "oops" moments every few passes. I'd think the spring of the scraper blades help to keep them from digging in too much the more you press down, whereas a grinder's just going to keep plunging, so depth is totally in control of the operator.

I hadn't realized how much scratching I was doing hand-scraping until I got my Biax. The weight and level of the machine makes the depth come in much more naturally so you can focus on your positioning more.

I'm sure someone could get really good grinding ways by hand, but unless It was necessary, I think way grinders and planers are the way to go. The only thing that would deter me from sending my machines out for grinding would be finances or anxiety about them cutting the right material from the right places.
 
About 5 years ago I taught a class down in El Paso IL and they rebuilt Railroad wheel lathes that sat inside a pit. They used to hire a old rebuilder from New Jersey who retired suddenly because he got Dementia. They said he would use a portable belt sander to grind down soft ways before he power scraped them. I had used belt sanders on hard beds years before but those ways were hard. Those railroad lathes weighted 15 tons. They aren't real accurate machines on the bed, just the cross-slide and compound. They turned the wheels round and parallel over 4" . Those chucks are driven off the same shaft that goes under the bed between the chucks so they turn both wheels on the axels at the same time. UBC 15 RAFAMET train wheelsets lathe machine - YouTube They looked similar to these in Poland.
 
Breathing all the crap in would put me off. Done my share of angle grinding over the years and I've got the cough to prove it.

Regards Tyrone.

Mike S__ the welder of the boot-tricks, passed away at - IIRC - 51 years of age.

Silicosis. Really bad.

We did mining machinery, but Mike had never once been inside a coal mine in his life.

Welder. Linde DC. Powdered-Iron stick, mostly. War Two to mid-1960's. Ventilation? Who wanted to be chilly?

Came to working conditions, my generation and a couple before it?

"Ve gang too soon elt, und too late schmart".

:(
 
Hello Rich, we knows 2 kinds of white Slideway plastics.

ZX-100K from Wolf Kunststoff-Gleitlager Wolf Kunststoff-Gleitlager GmbH: Slideways
and
Biplast from i-plastic Zickel i-plastic | Biplast

the one we have tested in our Class by Rottler was Biplast (with the fabric on the underside)

in the last Years we have used Turcite, ZX-100K and Biplast.
Currently our favorite is Biplast, it's a bit harder than Turcite and easier to scrape
we have all three Materials on stock, we can test ist in our Classes in November
 








 
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