Why do 70 Year old Machines areas accuarte as they were when built? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Part of this has to be number of cycles and run time on old machines and new cncs.
    How long was the best built B-port mill good for under 24-7-365 use? A B&S micromaster?
    Bob
    With a timer controlled auto lube system, decades...but you need a machinist to run them whereas a cnc needs an operator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    Stuff was built differently when we could cast steel at such a low cost... and labor was cheap so everything was hand fitted. I personally find it more impressive at how good some of the modern machines are with less and less hand fitting. They nailed things down in the 20's-60's with one methodology. Then the world changed and the machines changed. An SIP jig borer or Monarch 10EE is something to be marveled... but if you look at that and scoff at a brand new Brother you have some real blinders on.

    The truly impressive thing to me is how some of these modern machines can do millions of cycles and keep their accuracy...
    The value of a dollar is way less now than what it was 20-30 years ago, wages went up but we can only buy 1/4 of what we could 30 years ago, a house could be bought for 80k, that same house is 580 now in some markets, a new ford was 2,500, now its 65,000. That would make a modern version of Rockwell 11 lathe about 80,000. That is a lot of labor to manual scrape in a lathe, which would be a week to get it to acceptable standards? That is about 5% of the cost of a machine to scrape it in. Modern machines last the number of cycles they do because they use much better lube systems. A properly set up lube system is automatic and does not require the operator to think about when to lube the machine. After so much time or so many cycles it just lubes. They also lube accurately. The metering blocks are calibrated to put just enough lube to keep the sliding surfaces from touching but not too much to overlube and waste it. After working in a job shop for 10 years, I have seen a lot and there are many reasons why machines break down. Many are operator induced but proper lube is extremely important. tim

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    In inflation adjusted dollars, that lathe cost approx $8600 new. For a consumer grade lathe, that pretty much matches todays prices.
    I think its about 4-5x what the consumer is spending on a bench top lathe today. If the consumer was willing to spend 8600 US$, i bet quality hobby lathe makers like Myford and Emco would still be in business

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    Quote Originally Posted by astjp2 View Post
    The value of a dollar is way less now than what it was 20-30 years ago, wages went up but we can only buy 1/4 of what we could 30 years ago,
    not really. Inflation, wages and purchasing power have all pretty much kept pace if you look at the numbers. Everyone feels poorer though as there is a new significant household expense catagory: technology. Look at the annual spend, both purchase and on monthlies for cable, internet, cell phone, computer, software, games.... if the average household had all that extra to spend, in after tax dollars, wow.....you just might spend 8600 on a bench lathe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    not really. Inflation, wages and purchasing power have all pretty much kept pace if you look at the numbers. Everyone feels poorer though as there is a new significant household expense catagory: technology. Look at the annual spend, both purchase and on monthlies for cable, internet, cell phone, computer, software, games.... if the average household had all that extra to spend, in after tax dollars, wow.....you just might spend 8600 on a bench lathe
    in 1986, minimum wage was 3.50 per hour, now its 9.00 in many states. That means that your new in 1886 toyota is about 20K now, based just on minimum wage rates, try and buy a toyota truck for less than 30K. My parents sold their house about then for $14k, try and buy a house for 42K, most are $250K... People are poorer, % of wages paid for vehicles and homes are much higher now than 30 years ago. Try and buy a used truck for $3k and a dealer will laugh at you, they would send it to scrap before they would sell that cheap. Machines are the same way, I paid $1500 for my rockwell 11 lathe 5 years ago, it was wore out, I need to spend another $2k on it to get it up to par and scraped in, do you think I could afford to pay someone $50-100 per hour to scrape it in? I figure about a week to do the scraping on all sliding surfaces. That is skilled work and not a minimum wage profession. I know a local guy who scrapes machines, the only ones who can afford him is someone who is rebuilding super precise and non replaceable machines like jig borers and surface grinders. A $2k used bridgeport is not worth spending 6-10K rebuilding for most people or most businesses.

    New machines use turcite and box ways that are replaceable, old machine need to be massaged by experts, like what Richard King teaches in classes, any monkey can fix a mazak that has a hard part failure, I know, I used to work on Mazaks. In a week of training on a VTC300, 4 days was on the computer, half a day was spent on the tool changer and a half a day on the manuals. They didnt need to teach someone with any mechanical skills to fix a mechanical problem, unlike a machine with scraped ways and dovetails. New machines are disposable, job shops can replace them every 10-20 years, old ones are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astjp2 View Post
    With a timer controlled auto lube system, decades...but you need a machinist to run them whereas a cnc needs an operator.
    I did not get that that kind of life out of mine.
    8760 hours in a production year, two decades would be 175,000+ hours of continuous use.
    Perhaps we abused them but about 3-5 years and either off to the scrap yard or a very major ground up rebuild.
    I do have machines with the WWII tags on them but they have eaten a lot of money in fixing and reworking ways more than once.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I did not get that that kind of life out of mine.
    8760 hours in a production year, two decades would be 175,000+ hours of continuous use.
    Perhaps we abused them but about 3-5 years and either off to the scrap yard or a very major ground up rebuild.
    I do have machines with the WWII tags on them but they have eaten a lot of money in fixing and reworking ways more than once.
    Bob
    I posted this here once. I can't remember where. This was a Bullard CNC lathe. It was built as a CNC lathe in the early 1980 and lived in a GE aviation facility until around 2015. It has just shy of 240,000 power on hours and just shy of 43,000 hours in cycle. It appears they switched it on in the early 80s and almost never turned it off.

    The ways and spindle bearings were still in good condition and ball bar tests showed good backlash and circularity.

    The maintenance record, which were quite good, showed it had never been rebuilt or had any major repairs.

    img_0863.jpg

    I believe Ox posted that he has a Hardinge with slightly more hours in the cut than this old Dino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I did not get that that kind of life out of mine.
    8760 hours in a production year, two decades would be 175,000+ hours of continuous use.
    Perhaps we abused them but about 3-5 years and either off to the scrap yard or a very major ground up rebuild.
    I do have machines with the WWII tags on them but they have eaten a lot of money in fixing and reworking ways more than once.
    Bob
    My last shop was running 16 hours a day we had 3 Daewoo DVM500 mills which were 22 years old that still were running good parts, the coolant had about destroyed all of the cable insulation and pneumatic lines but they were still trucking along and holding .0002 tolerances when boring. Your maintenance is not adequate and/or your operators are not taking care of their machines. Most of the maintenance problems was due to lube line failures to the x ball screws, the counter weight chains breaking due to high "z" cycle rate, and operators changing offsets and crashing the machines. If your operators are filling the lube tanks every day and it normally lasts 3, you have a lube problem, I have seen a few machines that if they dont make pressure, the pump will not turn off, others are on a timer that just pumps. If the line is broke and not making pressure or it bypasses the metering ports it just dumps it all overboard. Tramp oil will also be an indication, but it up to your operators to notify you. Best of luck. Tim

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    Thats almost 5 years in the cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astjp2 View Post
    in 1986, minimum wage was 3.50 per hour, now its 9.00 in many states. That means that your new in 1886 toyota is about 20K now, based just on minimum wage rates, try and buy a toyota truck for less than 30K. My parents sold their house about then for $14k, try and buy a house for 42K, most are $250K... People are poorer, % of wages paid for vehicles and homes are much higher now than 30 years ago. Try and buy a used truck for $3k and a dealer will laugh at you, they would send it to scrap before they would sell that cheap.
    .
    you can't describe something like purchasing power over the broad reach of decades and a nation by anecdotes. Look at Real Median Household Incomes for the period, Its actually improved. Why do people feel poorer? Partially grass is greener and imo as I said a big part is the huge growth of technology spend. Households are spending a significant portion of earnings on a catagory that basically didn't exist in 1965. I concede there may be an argument that real wages may on average have improved but that it hasn't been the same for all income brackets, but I think think data is available by bracket. I'll leave at that as we're way OT with this


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