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  1. #21
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    The last time I checked this was the 'Machine Reconditioning, Scraping and Inspection' forum, not the 'Bodge it up and tell people how to spend their time' forum.
    To scrape that base and glue/screw in a decent shim is what, a day or two if youve an idea what youre doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    To scrape that base and glue/screw in a decent shim is what, a day or two if youve an idea what youre doing.
    This is kind of my thinking exactly. I would think that even if a newbie like me who moves at a glacial pace ought to be able to tackle this in tens of hours, not hundreds. I really don't mind the commentary on how one values one's time. It's thought provoking and the nature of these forums sort of invites the commentary.

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    I'm not fast, or a professional rebuilder, but based on my previous experience I give 2-3 days for this: machine the flat and v of the base to allow for a 0.125 thick shim with three thou scraping allowance, prep/drill/tap base and screw in the shim, scrape the base in, cut some oil grooves, drill and tap for a way cleaning felt holder to delay me having to do it again. Only wild cards I see are how worn the bed is, and how deep the key for set over of the tailstock is. Hopefully the key is a rectangle not a v.

    If it was my only lathe of this size, I'd do it.

    Just my, non professional opinion.

    L7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    The last time I checked this was the 'Machine Reconditioning, Scraping and Inspection' forum, not the 'Bodge it up and tell people how to spend their time' forum.
    Wiser heads - yours among them - have been trying to correct the excesses of that done to sell training classes rather than get machines back to work with skills we HAVE rather than WISH we had..

    But yes, it IS a slow process going back to the practical and useful - angle-grinder "scraping", anyone - rather than the pious, pontifical "religion" of only one way or the highway.



    To scrape that base and glue/screw in a decent shim is what, a day or two if youve an idea what youre
    doing.
    Probably about right on time - but it is not necessarily related to "scraping".

    This one is out twenty-two thou? And the BED WEAR has not been corrected?

    Hand-scraping twenty-two thou is more work than needs to be.

    Mill it first, save scraping & flaking for final touch, and you are not harmed even if it isn't the best of scraping. The mill gave you most of the gain needed.

    Grinding services exist as well as milling. It isn't too large nor heavy to send-out if you have neither capability under-roof.

    Get it stable and flat so it locks-down tightly again and you have useful improvement over what it was, can put that to work, do more, next go.

    You KNOW it will need a taller shim after a bed regrind, yah?

    And you don't want to try to line-bore or fab a new ram on a worn-out bed, so..

    Take what you got when you get it. Do more next-go.

    No "bodge". Hunger, rather.


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    Without a good look at the rest of the lathe, I'm afraid that shimming the tailstock for wear, is the most practical. Seems like the carriage would be showing much more wear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rj1939 View Post
    Without a good look at the rest of the lathe, I'm afraid that shimming the tailstock for wear, is the most practical. Seems like the carriage would be showing much more wear.
    The "right way" IS the "classical" way, It is simply effort at least partially wasted if the bed goes up and down.

    While the TS ways are usually worn less than the carriage ways, the amount of wear here sez they are probably in bad shape.

    Given I prefer to drill with the carriage, seldom turn 'tween centres, TS refurb isn't high on my list.

    OP's needs are OP's needs, though.

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    Do the bed first. At least check it and decide ok / not ok. Not ok = fix it.
    As mentioned before the quill is likely to be worn as well. One way it can be done, fit the base to the ways, fit the base and the top. Make a new quill or clean up the old. Bore out the quill hole 0,2" oversize. Align the new quill inplace and inject cast it with moglice or SKC epoxy. Making the quill is now "easy" and casting it in place ensure perfect fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumberjack View Post
    Do the bed first. At least check it and decide ok / not ok. Not ok = fix it.
    As mentioned before the quill is likely to be worn as well. One way it can be done, fit the base to the ways, fit the base and the top. Make a new quill or clean up the old. Bore out the quill hole 0,2" oversize. Align the new quill inplace and inject cast it with moglice or SKC epoxy. Making the quill is now "easy" and casting it in place ensure perfect fit.
    That can work, but.. how well, and for how long?

    Some things we know from long years of shared experiences:

    - TS quills wear in their bores, even when run steel against decent grey Iron

    - getting ANY fluid or semi-fluid material INTO and uniformly distributed within the cavity presented by a relatively small diameter and thin "wall" cylindrical space of many-diameter length or depth of run is always problematical. I mean.. even for concreting fence posts into far larger holes?

    - Miracle plastics are slipperier than Iron, but also deform more under load

    - AS they deform, especially in thin sections, plastics stress their (ALSO plastic) bond line to the host metal. Separation is known to occur.

    So I have to ask. How LONG can one expect a moglice monkey-patch of .100" wall thickness to last, as compared to the classical line-bore to an oversize, in the parent Iron?

    Which really needs to be done ANYWAY, as above, .200" overbore, just to make enough space to meet recommended minimum thickness of Moglice. Unless the quill is to be made so much smaller we create a challenge as to re-implementing its anti-rotation key and keyway?

    This is the sort of patch that might hope to help SELL a wore-out lathe if not looked at too closely..

    But I'd hafta put it in the same class as my late cousin from French Creek, WBGVA putting oatmeal into a noisy differential and a bacon rind main bearing into a fifty-six Dodge to get a better trade-in on a new Plymouth Valiant.

    He did get his deal. But it was the last time anyone trusted him for the better part of forty years. Well. Until he died, anyway. No one was really counting by then.

    You'd have to know small-town West Virginia?

    For a tailstock? The "standard" or classical "all metal" way to a durable repair is still the best.

    It may even be cheaper and faster?

    If the BED has been trued first? It can even be accurate!

    Go figure...


    4 1/2 CW

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    As near as i can tell by estimating the bed wear using two diverse methods, the bed wear is on the order of .005 over the first 30 inches or so of carriage travel. I'm thinking this is not horrible for a 78 year old machine. i feel like the wear in the carriage and TS can be corrected. Through all of this i failed to mention that i this is not my only lathe. I have a mid 30's reed prentice 14 x 30 in very good mechanical condition. it is in the same class as the monarch so i can afford to take my time setting the monarch right.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails imag1189.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by marka12161 View Post
    As near as i can tell by estimating the bed wear using two diverse methods, the bed wear is on the order of .005 over the first 30 inches or so of carriage travel. I'm thinking this is not horrible for a 78 year old machine. i feel like the wear in the carriage and TS can be corrected. Through all of this i failed to mention that i this is not my only lathe. I have a mid 30's reed prentice 14 x 30 in very good mechanical condition. it is in the same class as the monarch so i can afford to take my time setting the monarch right.
    Monarch forum for yah, then.

    "If you have not already read..."
    EARLY in the "stickies". The late, lamented Harry Bloom, writing as "beckley23".

    "Wreck" Update

    Another New Toy

    - In there or more likely "elsewhere", St. Mary's foundry seems to have tipped a skosh of Nickel into their melt for the Wizards of Sidney. Carriages are long, broad, exert lower unit-pressure than ordinary lathes. Beds wear very slowly, are not easy to scrape.

    - Underside of the softer CI saddle will have 5 or more times as much wear as the ways - your TS just demonstrated the same.

    Tailstock specific:

    Another now-absent hero, the late TexasTurnado, made his last major contribution a full-investigation as to a precision TS rebuild:

    Is it possible to hone the bore of a tailstock accurately enough in a home shop?

    Great discussion, folks covered all the bases, also remained polite and shared nicely. Got superb results in the metal as well.

    PS: Reed-Prentice may have a work envelope similar to the Monarch.

    Are bed hardness and a few other niggling details the "same"?

    Maybe not so much? You'll soon see!


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Monarch forum for yah, then.

    "If you have not already read..."
    EARLY in the "stickies". The late, lamented Harry Bloom, writing as "beckley23".

    "Wreck" Update

    Another New Toy

    - In there or more likely "elsewhere", St. Mary's foundry seems to have tipped a skosh of Nickel into their melt for the Wizards of Sidney. Carriages are long, broad, exert lower unit-pressure than ordinary lathes. Beds wear very slowly, are not easy to scrape.

    - Underside of the softer CI saddle will have 5 or more times as much wear as the ways - your TS just demonstrated the same.

    Tailstock specific:

    Another now-absent hero, the late TexasTurnado, made his last major contribution a full-investigation as to a precision TS rebuild:

    Is it possible to hone the bore of a tailstock accurately enough in a home shop?

    Great discussion, folks covered all the bases, also remained polite and shared nicely. Got superb results in the metal as well.

    PS: Reed-Prentice may have a work envelope similar to the Monarch.

    Are bed hardness and a few other niggling details the "same"?

    Maybe not so much? You'll soon see!

    Bill,
    Thanks for the tips

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    Marka,

    That´s one sweet Monarch, much smaller than I anticipated.
    You have received plenty good advices from most but one and you will be hosting an RK class. I´m not sure why you shy away from that short bed. Don´t worry about it, once you´ve held that class you´ll be right on top of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumberjack View Post
    Marka,

    That´s one sweet Monarch, much smaller than I anticipated.
    You have received plenty good advices from most but one and you will be hosting an RK class. I´m not sure why you shy away from that short bed. Don´t worry about it, once you´ve held that class you´ll be right on top of it.
    I'm sorry I was a bit unclear. The machine in the picture is the mid 30s reed prentice which is in really good condition. The machine we've been discussing here is a monarch 16 CY with 56" bed from 1941. It's a bit bigger than the RP. My point of showing the RP was to address some of the feedback indicating i should consider certain short term fixes. Given that the monarch is not my only lathe, i can afford to take the time necessary to set it right. Right now, the only question in my mind is how much money i want to put into the project. I could go all in and get the bed reground but i'm feeling like that may be more than i want to do given my goals. If i could get it ground for $1000-ish, i might consider it bu i suspect that's a bit of a dream. I'm hoping Richard can help me through that decision process during the class. I'm really looking forward to working over the other components of the machine. Thanks for the feedback

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    Like this? If so thats a proper nice looking machine tool, well worth the effort.


    How did you go about gauging the bed wear out of interest? .005" of wear I think id leave the bed as is. Hardened bed? Have you had it running, test cut, tested the saddle and slides for wear/alignment etc?

    Cheers
    D

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    Quote Originally Posted by marka12161 View Post
    ..question in my mind is how much money i want to put into the project. I could go all in and get the bed reground but i'm feeling like that may be more than i want to do given my goals. If i could get it ground for $1000-ish,
    A bed regrind, I've been budgeting "someday, maybe" at around $3,500, one, but not both 10EE. Ironically, the one with the MOST wear would be given a miss on a regrind because it actually needs it LESS.

    Sound bass-ackwards?

    Simple reason. Its wear is near-as-dammit perfectly evenly distributed, full-length.

    Putting the saddle back right and restoring the vertical height (it presently drags on leadscrew/surfacing shaft) would be all the gain it justifies.

    The one with less wear has nearly all of the wear concentrated in the middle third of travel.

    Both are "war babies", so the one with concentrated wear may have been worked long years, 3 shifts, apparently at Ford Instrument, making the same part for US Navy fire direction control goods one identical part after another as if it were a Hardinge on steroids.

    If only they could talk..



    "Map" your bed's wear, as Harry did. It is a time-consuming exercise, done right, checked and triple-checked. Have that information in-hand before a scraping class, and it will be useful for guiding decisions.

    "Step" scraping is a non-trivial consumer of time, but you HAVE a working lathe beside it, do not have to do it all at once, the headstock need not come off, the bed need not come off the base / pedestal, be hauled or freighted to and back from a grind shop, nor all as came apart then have to go back together again.

    Providing you don't lose interest, change blanket-sharers at great expense - or even just residences, nor expire of old age before it completes.



    So I'll predict no regrind justified.

    As to "lathe economics" in general?

    A 10EE spindle is FAST - never less than 2500 RPM to begin with, soon bumped to 4,000 RPM and easily tuned to run faster-yet. Carbides & cousins were, and remain, an easy option.

    Geared-heads are not as easily over-speeded, or surely not to 4,000 and above RPM,

    Comes a time it makes more sense to go and get a different, newer, lathe entirely.

    My one just happened to be French! And needs no scraping at all.

    Run what yah got. Get what yah want to run. Don't let either run your life.


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    I am late to this party but wanted to clarify that Moglice is not at all like Turcite, not in composition as well as application. Think of Moglice like very hard , high grade JBweld with slippery stuff in it. It does not compress and clamps perfectly, not like Turcite/Garlock. In my experience with Moglice applied over a properly ground surface, it exhibited severe stichon due to the precise mating of the components and required alot of flaking to make things slide easily. Very much like wringing of gage blocks. For me, the alignment and setting up of the Moglice was much easier using a adjustable fixture than trying to precision scrape the base for pitch, yaw, roll and height.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daryl bane View Post
    I am late to this party but wanted to clarify that Moglice is not at all like Turcite, not in composition as well as application. Think of Moglice like very hard , high grade JBweld with slippery stuff in it. It does not compress and clamps perfectly, not like Turcite/Garlock. In my experience with Moglice applied over a properly ground surface, it exhibited severe stichon due to the precise mating of the components and required alot of flaking to make things slide easily. Very much like wringing of gage blocks. For me, the alignment and setting up of the Moglice was much easier using a adjustable fixture than trying to precision scrape the base for pitch, yaw, roll and height.
    To be fair, it has a LOT of metal in it. Even so, the difference between its linear coefficient of expansion from the CI it is usally adhered to is yet-another concern.

    Not a big deal in industrial facilities, perhaps. Even if cycled to energy-save, off hours. Likewise, machine-tools are MEANT to be used-up as they generate revenue, not preserved forever.

    Might be more of an issue for those among us who have severe winter/summer swings and shops not even used every day, let alone held to narrower temp ranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Like this? If so thats a proper nice looking machine tool, well worth the effort.


    How did you go about gauging the bed wear out of interest? .005" of wear I think id leave the bed as is. Hardened bed? Have you had it running, test cut, tested the saddle and slides for wear/alignment etc?

    Cheers
    D
    Yes,

    I'e basically got the same machine but with a much less pretty paint job. The set up i used to take the bed measurements is shown in the pic below. This set up assumes the top point of the inverted V ways are not worn. Since these are not bearing surfaces, i feel this is a reasonable assumption. As the pic shows, i'm measuring the back of an inverted V block. I feel like this is a measurement of "functional wear" or the wear that is relevant to the function of the machine. The results indicate the worst wear is on the front inverted v-way which is what you would expect given the weight of the saddle. I also measured the front and rear flat ways which showed much less wear (1-2 thou). My diverse measurement was the simple mount the indicator on the carriage and indicate off the front flat way. The results were very consistent between the two methods and what you would expect.

    Also, attached are a couple pics of the rest of the machine minus the cross slide, compound TS and TA which are off the machine for cleaning
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_20191024_184628706.jpg   img_20191024_184614474.jpg   img_20191024_184452079.jpg  

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  23. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by marka12161 View Post
    Yes,

    I'e basically got the same machine but with a much less pretty paint job. The set up i used to take the bed measurements is shown in the pic below. This set up assumes the top point of the inverted V ways are not worn. Since these are not bearing surfaces, i feel this is a reasonable assumption. As the pic shows, i'm measuring the back of an inverted V block. I feel like this is a measurement of "functional wear" or the wear that is relevant to the function of the machine. The results indicate the worst wear is on the front inverted v-way which is what you would expect given the weight of the saddle. I also measured the front and rear flat ways which showed much less wear (1-2 thou). My diverse measurement was the simple mount the indicator on the carriage and indicate off the front flat way. The results were very consistent between the two methods and what you would expect.

    Also, attached are a couple pics of the rest of the machine minus the cross slide, compound TS and TA which are off the machine for cleaning
    Understood, youre measuring the sum of the wear vertically. The actual wear in the individual surfaces is likely less with the inside V surface showing the most. The top of the V would be seen as a clearance surface, it most likely would have been ground in the same setup as the bearing surfaces and 'should' be good, but is always good to qualify them as best you can.
    Id be more interested in the more important horizontal number. As the machine stands would be interesting to indicate one of the side surfaces from the saddle.
    side-surface.jpg

    Cheers
    D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    As the machine stands would be interesting to indicate one of the side surfaces from the saddle.
    side-surface.jpg

    Cheers
    D
    great point as that will directly effect the cut. I'll take that measurement.
    thanks for the tip


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