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Would you rent or lease a Biax?

M.B. Naegle

Diamond
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
Conroe, TX USA
So, another topic about the availability of Biax parts got me thinking, is there any interest in a rental service for Biax power scrapers?

I'm in research mode at the moment, but hypothetically I'm thinking of a website based service where you could rent by the week or possibly lease by the year. There would be a deposit to be returned once the tool was returned in working order. The price of rental would also include shipping to the lower 48 states and a return label would be included with the tool. The deal would not include instructions of how to rebuild machines, but instruction of how to use the tool and include a basic blade.

The pricing I'm still figuring out, but It would of course be cheaper than buying a new Biax and less of a gamble as buying an old used model. This is less a service for the professional rebuilder who scrapes every day and more for guys like myself who need to scrape their own machines and tools on demand. If you needed to rebuild your mill over the course of a month, You could have access to a newer model Biax for $800 +deposit (hypothetically).

Would any of you be interested in such a service?
 
I figured I would post a "want to borrow" thread when I get around to my 24x36 surface plate, so I guess I'm a potential customer. But $800 per month is too high. Realistically I'd want it for 3 months at least, and even if it were $800 for 3 months I'd rather just buy a used one.
 
I was telling MB, I have rented out 2 times. Had the renter send me a cashiers check for $2500.00 deposit that I sent back when it was returned. I charged $200.00 a week too. One time I had no issues and they send it back with a company check for $400.00. The last time I did it. The renter originally said he needed it for a week or 2. He had it for a month and after a dozen emails and a few phone calls he sent it back and it had been rode hard and not cleaned up. He sent me a company check and I returned the cashiers check. The company check bounced, so I said no way. It's not worth it to me. Haden who took the Portland class paid $2500.00 or a good runner about 2 months ago. Good luck trying to figure it out Myles.
 
My take on this is no I wouldn't want to rent a Biax scraper. It took me awhile but I found a clean not-too-beat 7EL. I add variable speed with one of those router speed controls and it works just fine for me. I think I have $1100 into it.

Just keep looking and networking and shaking the trees. Eventually one will surface. Then be careful don't buy just any old thing. Mine came with the rollup leather holder with several blades plus a new Sandvik carbide insert plus a spare set of brushes plus the little scraper with the 1" square hole. It was missing the leather handle but I made one and it works just fine. I use a little treadmill motor and controller on a cobbled together wood frame and it sharpens carbide blades just great.

metalmagpie
 
Metal, that square holed scraper is called a "Control Gage". Used to sharpen the blades, count points and the sharp edge is to deburr the part. I prefer a stone. Sounds like you got a deal... :-) Those blades usually sell for new...$85.00 each The gage is $40.00.
 
I've loaned my scraper out to several people who have all treated it with respect and returned in perfect condition but would I rent it to Joe Blow? No fecking way!

Such an expensive tool there's too much risk involved and we all know how rentals get treated.
 
Thanks for the input.

I likewise wouldn't just loan out my personal tools to random people. I would have one or two Biax' purchased just for the service and get an equipment rental policy to help with damages and stolen tools. That and the deposit should cover replacing the tool if it came to it. The deposit is a tricky one to figure because too low and I put myself at risk if the tool is lost, too high and people might as well buy their own and sell it later (what we do right now). With that said, my fee only needs to cover shipping, insurance, gradual depreciation from age and wear, and have a little profit to eventually pay for the tool and purchase it's future replacement. All those numbers I'm still figuring out, but it also depends on if I would have 1 or 50 rentals in a year.

So, if it wasn't YOUR tools :) would such a service be helpful?
 
If I owned one I'd certainly not let anybody touch it. OTOH, I'd have to be doing something really big before considering spending hundreds of dollars a week. This is all hypothetical since I've never scraped more than very small things and never a full machine. As an aside, they've been making these things for quite a while. Isn't it time for somebody to give them some competition? OTOH, the volume must be really small. On the spare parts topic, the things aren't made by aliens outside this planetary system. There's no reason motors can't be rewound and anything else it needs fabricated by perfectly normal (I use the term loosely) people like populate this forum.
 
I bought one used in good condition, but per Richard's recent cautionary thread, it may die on me and be unfixable (green motor machine). At that point I would certainly be interested in rent or lease arrangement, because $4000 for a new model is awful hard to justify when I have a project that needs it only every 2-3 years.
 
800 a month for a 4000 dollar item is a little high. Not against the idea of tool rental, I just rented a tiller from hd for a day. We have a scissor lift under a crane right now from Ryder. It is a win win for both the supplier and user.
Figure out clear terms for wear and tear included vs abuse of tool. Suppling a scrapper with insert cutter (one free, the other 5 with rental are like a hotels mini bar?). No one who rents tools or equipment blinks at cc deposit - even autozone does that on loan-a-tools. Have a shippable case for it, if you expect someone to box (pack) it up properly you are asking to much- and risking to much. The return label inside the case and the renter just slaps it on and drops is off at fed ex(or usps, ups, dhl, pony express..)
 
I am skeptical that you could set up an even marginally profitable business. However, observing the sale prices of questionable ones on eBay, I might be wrong.
Anyhow, my concerns are that the number of customers will be rather low (at least the majority of the hobbyists are more about accumulating potentially useful tools than using them ore than once for projects) and the risk related to the scraper being mistreated by the renter are fairly high. They are rather rugged tools but, at the same time, they are rather delicate. Some wear and tear is very difficult to spot right away and/or to positively blame the last renter for it.

Again, it's a niche market. A few companies build/built power scrapers, but it's rather hard to compete against Biax. You might get something cheaper, like a Renz. But, for what I can see, most of Renz owners, after trying out a Biax, they try to get one and get rid of the Renz.
The balance on niche markets is rather tricky. Consider, for instance, Glendo recently dropping the Accu-Finish from their product line because they were faced with having to buy a too large quantity of motors at once (and the storage costs eating up all the profit margins of the machine).

I agree that $800/month is rather steep for a hobbyist (who would rather bite the bullet and get a hopefully decent one for the cost of a couple of months renting), but it could be reasonable for a professional who doesn't need it frequently and passes down the rental cost to the customer.

The bottom line is that a Biax is not a wood chipper, log splitter, etc. Beside for the volume of rents, the main difference is that it doesn't take up too much space on a shelf.

Paolo
 
Don’t want to be a downer, but I agree with Paulo. I may not be typical and am certainly not a pro rebuilder, but scraping work in my shop gets done in fits and starts depending on my paying work schedule, family time etc. So maybe there’s a week or two I can bltz and get in 40+ hours scraping a week (and pay for that with sore elbows) but most weeks it averages 10 hours when a scraping project is underway. That reality just wouldn’t allow renting a Biax. I purchased a used one five years ago, got three years of use before its first trip to the Detroit spa, and it’s going strong again..

Sorry I can’t be more supportive of the idea of renting.

L7
 
You students make my day! I love reading your posts. Sore elbows and all. LOL

I hope someday we could have some sort of reunion and all of you could meet each other. And No Camping allowed! LOL Have a good Holiday weekend.... Rich
 
Had not seen the $800. That would make me think again. Depends on how it breaks down, by the month only, or in week increments, etc.

You can get a lot done in a month, if you can work steady at it, and have a power scraper. Probably more than I would need to do at a time, and puts a premium on having all ducks in a guaranteed row before renting.

Just an added item found to be needed in the middle of the job could turn it from "worth it" to "a loser". And it is the case sometimes that scraping ends up changing the plan somewhere in the middle, as spaces get too big, gibs need to be made new, etc.
 
I think the monthly rental plan makes more sense than the weekly now. As noted, it gives more time for the unforeseen and less "crunch time" trying to get the job done before needing to return the tool, which leads to late returns and damaged tools.

I have a full time job so I don't need to worry about my own salary, etc. But as I see it, if I can make enough to break even when there's not many orders coming in, then when business picks up, it's profit that goes towards extra rental tools and buying my kids ice cream. IMO The perk of having a newish Biax to use myself between rentals is enough to cover the "hastle" of the service.

$800 was me grabbing a number out of the air based on my own past tool rental experiences. I'm sure it could come down. As I noted before, the frequency of how often the tools get rented has a big bearing on it. I know it can't be predicted exactly, but like any business, if I can divide up the insurance, tool cost, and other small business costs (LLC, etc.) from a projected number to start with, I can charge accordingly and then adjust my rates annually if needed.

I'm also figuring these numbers assuming that the tools will eventually be obsolete, worn out, etc., even if they survive abuse and theft. If I purchase a brand new Biax today, I'm expecting it to pay for it's replacement in 10 years as electric components specifically tend to depreciate at that rate. In time, it also needs to pay for the first tools purchase. If the tool survives longer, which it for sure will if taken care of, then I'd still want to plan on replacing it and at that point the old one could either be rented at a significantly reduced rate, or be sold with the proceeds going towards expanding the fleet. So with current models costing +/- $4000, If I rent it out six months out of the year for 10 years, The rate only needs to cover $66 of the tools value. If I only get one rental a year, $400 of the tools value. Insurance would cost about $40+ a month, provided I'm not plagued with theft and damages driving the rate up, and shipping could cost $100-200 or so for a round trip (adding some flat rate buffer and insurance). Shipping is also down time, so if I'm getting orders right and left and shipping them out as soon as they come back, I'm still going to loose at least two months out of a year in transit.

So splitting the difference, if I can expect three months of rental time a year, then $150 for tool value, $150 shipping, and $160 insurance.
=
$460 a month + deposit. That includes shipping and a used but sharp general purpose blade. Reasonable?

The deposit I'm thinking $1000, to be refunded upon receiving and inspecting the tool. If part of the tool is damaged but fixable or the customer decided to keep the blade, that would be deducted from the deposit. Insurance cases will mainly be for heavy damages and theft as cases will likely increase rates and usually are not quick to pay out, so I could be sitting on a tool for a month before I can get it fixed or replaced.

I'm also thinking of having a brief skill questionnaire. Nothing big, but enough to weed out the guys who don't have a clue and would blame my tool for their inexperience. I also wouldn't be against having a reduced deposit or rate for PM members or people who have completed a scraping course, as that experience and dedication IMO weeds out some risk on my part.
 








 
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