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scraping lathe bed question

Userkc14419

Plastic
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Nov 26, 2013
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Louisville KY
Okay sorry for another scraping a lathe bed question.

I have been reading through alot of threads regarding scraping in lathe beds but still havent determined if its possible to scrape in hardened beds. I have an 11" rockwell that has a slight dip near the chuck which I would like to address. Its not an expensive lathe so I cant really justify sending the bed out to be ground. If hand scraping is possible I would consider it as an option.

Anyone scraped hardened beds?
 
I have an 11" rockwell that has a slight dip near the chuck which I would like to address.

How deep of a 'dip' and how long?

It is part of any restoration, refurbishment, or repair to determine precisely how much needs to be done to what.

Yes hardened beds can be scraped but they are just harder. Have you compared the cost of scraping to the cost of grinding? Are you planning to scrape it yourself? If yes, have you ever scraped anything before?

-DU-
 
There is a thread on here about one guy doing it. Yes, it can be done, but judging by the comments I would guess that it is much harder to do. I believe the thread has the work "wreck" in it.
Joe
 
How deep of a 'dip' and how long?

I am not sure yet. After I finally was able to reassemble and level the lathe I was able to make a test cut on a piece of 2" x 18" bar. If I remember correctly I was cuting roughly .0015 out near the chuck. I was able to adjust the tail and do a little tweaking here and there to make acceptable cuts within roughly 8" of the chuck but I know its got a slight dip.

Can you recommend a way of checking the bed? Is it best to just make a test cut, or better to use some sort of camel back type straight endge?

It is part of any restoration, refurbishment, or repair to determine precisely how much needs to be done to what.

Yes hardened beds can be scraped but they are just harder. Have you compared the cost of scraping to the cost of grinding? Are you planning to scrape it yourself? If yes, have you ever scraped anything before?

I did call about having it ground way back when and the cost after shipping was well over 1000. I just dont think this machine warrents that expense. If this were a Monarch then I could see spending the $$. I however dont think its money well spent on a Rockwell.

Now if I can scrape it in better than what it currently is and all im out is a few dollars for tools then maybe. I would have a more usable tool and learn a skill which I have not tried yet.

-DU-

How deep of a 'dip' and how long?

I am not sure yet. After I finally was able to reassemble and level the lathe I was able to make a test cut on a piece of 2" x 18" bar. If I remember correctly I was cuting roughly .0015 out near the chuck. I was able to adjust the tail and do a little tweaking here and there to make acceptable cuts within roughly 8" of the chuck but I know its got a slight dip.

Can you recommend a way of checking the bed? Is it best to just make a test cut, or better to use some sort of camel back type straight endge?

It is part of any restoration, refurbishment, or repair to determine precisely how much needs to be done to what.

Yes hardened beds can be scraped but they are just harder. Have you compared the cost of scraping to the cost of grinding? Are you planning to scrape it yourself? If yes, have you ever scraped anything before?

I did call about having it ground way back when and the cost after shipping was well over 1000. I just dont think this machine warrents that expense. If this were a Monarch then I could see spending the $$. I however dont think its money well spent on a Rockwell.

Now if I can scrape it in better than what it currently is and all im out is a few dollars for tools then maybe. I would have a more usable tool and learn a skill which I have not tried yet.
 
I started some scraping on a hardened Hardinge HLV bed (5"x30" flat plate in ~60HRC steel). It was a most unpleasant experience. Trials of various positive and negative rake bits didn't change the unpleasantness of the experience. I finally did the job using spot grinding with an electric die grinder and AlOx bits for roughing, followed by cratex bits for finishing and got a very acceptable result.
 
IF you did try scraping a hardened bed,you'd obviously have to use a carbide scraper,preferably with a
biax scraper. The carbide blades are not cheap,and you'd also have to make or invest in the means to sharpen them.

The "wreck" thread was a guy who made up a device to use the tailstock ways to true up the carriage ways. I can't recall if he had a grinder on it,or a carbide lathe tool. I do recall when he got near the bottoms of the V ways,they were soft,and the appearance of the cut changed. It is in the Monarch section.
 
I started some scraping on a hardened Hardinge HLV bed (5"x30" flat plate in ~60HRC steel). It was a most unpleasant experience. Trials of various positive and negative rake bits didn't change the unpleasantness of the experience. I finally did the job using spot grinding with an electric die grinder and AlOx bits for roughing, followed by cratex bits for finishing and got a very acceptable result.


Can you share a little more on how you were using an electric die grinder to aid in the process. Not to mention I have no idea what ALOX or Cratex bits are. Im just trying to picture in my head how the die grinder could be used.

Im not looking for perfect... I however would love to get the lathe back within the .0005 tolerance it came with from the factory. Not sure its possible with my skill and experience level but ya never know.
 
Okay sorry for another scraping a lathe bed question.

I have been reading through alot of threads regarding scraping in lathe beds but still havent determined if its possible to scrape in hardened beds.


So in other words, you have no experience with scraping at all? No equipment to do it?

My advice would be...

A: Live with the wear.

B: Get it ground, which will then open a can of worms as you will have to scrape the saddle anyway, and keep alignment with the headstock, and keep alignment with the leadscrew... And scrape the tailstock, and you might as well scrape the cross slide as well...

C: If you can not do either of the above, sell the lathe...

I can tell you now, it is easy to read threads about people that have hand scraped something complicated... The experienced with years of practice make it look so easy...

It is not easy, and requires a major investment of time and a moderate investment of money to get set up to do it right....
 
How deep of a 'dip' and how long?

I am not sure yet. After I finally was able to reassemble and level the lathe I was able to make a test cut on a piece of 2" x 18" bar. If I remember correctly I was cuting roughly .0015 out near the chuck. I was able to adjust the tail and do a little tweaking here and there to make acceptable cuts within roughly 8" of the chuck but I know its got a slight dip.

OK. (For future reference: Please take notes and mention exactly how you measured 'roughly .0015 out near the chuck') Please define what you mean by 'acceptable cuts'. Again... from what you describe it is likely you have a 'slight dip' but it does not tell us how much and, most importantly, why. From what you are saying you were using the tailstock to make this test, in which case your '.0015 out' may be due to tail stock alignment, headstock alignment, bed twist, or bed wear. It may also be a combination of all four. The trick is to try and separate them in order to isolate and quantify the problem.

Can you recommend a way of checking the bed? Is it best to just make a test cut, or better to use some sort of camel back type straight edge?

Yes... but checking just the bed, independent of everything else, requires some specialized equipment and procedures that you are unlikely to have access to. You can see and read up on one of way measuring by googling for 'king way alignment tool'. You will find most images and discussions point back to practicalmachinist.com. The son of the inventor of that tool is a member here (Richard King.) Finding a King Way Alignment tool is difficult and probably very costly. There are a number of people who have made their own copies. There are also a number of ways to cobble one together with a lot of rods and clamps.

That said... The simplest method to try and isolate and correct your problem is perform the 'test-bar' test. One way to do the test bar test is described in the Rockwell manual for the 11" lathe. You can download the manual from the 'RockwellLathe' yahoo group. I think you need to be a member... but a good idea to join anyhow. Yahoo Groups The manual is in the 'Files' section of the group. But the method described in the Rockwell manual requires a pre-made precision test bar. You can find them but they are usually pretty expensive.

Another method is to use the test bar you already have but this time do not use the tailstock at all. This is often called the 'Turning Test Method'. For a reasonably good description see this: http://neme-s.org/Model_Engineer_Files/Align1.pdf (page 915 lower left) When using this method it is important to use a free cutting test bar and a sharp HSS tool to minimize cutting forces and deflection of the test bar. I would actually make three 'bobbins' on the bar; one at each end and one in the middle. You will need the test bar you already have, a 1-2" micrometer that can read to tenths, and a sharp HSS cutting tool ground for finish cutting the material of your test bar.

Even if there is some wear to the bed ways as you suspect... you may be able to 'twist' some or all of it out using the test bar method.

You mentioned that you have already leveled the lathe but you did not mention how you leveled it (the above mentioned manual has specific instructions on doing this) nor what type and precision of level you were using. Leveling a lathe is fine and dandy. When a lathe is setup at the factory it is done with it leveled. But it is not the final adjustment. As is often said here and elsewhere, there are lathes on ships that cut straight and true that may never be 'level'.

I did call about having it ground way back when and the cost after shipping was well over 1000. I just dont think this machine warrents that expense. If this were a Monarch then I could see spending the $$. I however dont think its money well spent on a Rockwell.

You may find that after gathering all the right tools and time spent learning how to scrape that $1000+ is a relative bargain.

Now if I can scrape it in better than what it currently is and all im out is a few dollars for tools then maybe. I would have a more usable tool and learn a skill which I have not tried yet.

Keep in mind... if the lathe is worn about 0.0015" for 8" of the bed length then you will have to scrape approximately 60" (this includes the section under the head stock) of six surfaces down to the level of the worn areas.

So, do the 'Turning Test Method' and tell us what you find.

-DU-
 
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IF you did try scraping a hardened bed,you'd obviously have to use a carbide scraper,preferably with a
biax scraper. The carbide blades are not cheap,and you'd also have to make or invest in the means to sharpen them.

The "wreck" thread was a guy who made up a device to use the tailstock ways to true up the carriage ways. I can't recall if he had a grinder on it,or a carbide lathe tool. I do recall when he got near the bottoms of the V ways,they were soft,and the appearance of the cut changed. It is in the Monarch section.

Thanks for the heads up.. I will look up the thread and see what I can learn. I am just a novice at this stuff but it is something I would eventually like to look into. If not for this project but maybe another.
 
OK. (For future reference: Please take notes and mention exactly how you measured 'roughly .0015 out near the chuck') Please define what you mean by 'acceptable cuts'. Again... from what you describe it is likely you have a 'slight dip' but it does not tell us how much and, most importantly, why. From what you are saying you were using the tailstock to make this test, in which case your '.0015 out' may be due to tail stock alignment, headstock alignment, bed twist, or bed wear. It may also be a combination of all four. The trick is to try and separate them in order to isolate and quantify the problem.



Yes... but checking just the bed, independent of everything else, requires some specialized equipment and procedures that you are unlikely to have access to. You can see and read up on one of way measuring by googling for 'king way alignment tool'. You will find most images and discussions point back to practicalmachinist.com. The son of the inventor of that tool is a member here (Richard King.) Finding a King Way Alignment tool is difficult and probably very costly. There are a number of people who have made their own copies. There are also a number of ways to cobble one together with a lot of rods and clamps.

That said... The simplest method to try and isolate and correct your problem is perform the 'test-bar' test. One way to do the test bar test is described in the Rockwell manual for the 11" lathe. You can download the manual from the 'RockwellLathe' yahoo group. I think you need to be a member... but a good idea to join anyhow. Yahoo Groups The manual is in the 'Files' section of the group. But the method described in the Rockwell manual requires a pre-made precision test bar. You can find them but they are usually pretty expensive.

Another method is to use the test bar you already have but this time do not use the tailstock at all. This is often called the 'Turning Test Method'. For a reasonably good description see this: http://neme-s.org/Model_Engineer_Files/Align1.pdf (page 915 lower left) When using this method it is important to use a free cutting test bar and a sharp HSS tool to minimize cutting forces and deflection of the test bar. I would actually make three 'bobbins' on the bar; one at each end and one in the middle. You will need the test bar you already have, a 1-2" micrometer that can read to tenths, and a sharp HSS cutting tool ground for finish cutting the material of your test bar.

Even if there is some wear to the bed ways as you suspect... you may be able to 'twist' some or all of it out using the test bar method.

You mentioned that you have already leveled the lathe but you did not mention how you leveled it (the above mentioned manual has specific instructions on doing this) nor what type and precision of level you were using. Leveling a lathe is fine and dandy. When a lathe is setup at the factory it is done with leveled. But it is not the final adjustment. As is often said here and elsewhere, there are lathes on ships that cut straight and true that may never be 'level'.



You may find that after gathering all the right tools and time spent learning how to scrape that $1000+ is a relative bargain.



Keep in mind... if the lathe is worn about 0.0015" for 8" of the bed length ten you will have to scrape approximately 60" (this includes the section under the head stock) of six surfaces down to the level of the worn areas.

So, do the 'Turning Test Method' and tell us what you find.

-DU-


Fair enough... I do need to check into finding a test bar, just have not done so yet. Regardless, I would like to learn scraping and try my hand at it in the future. Maybe my lathe is, or is not, the best candidate. Scraping is still something I would like to learn and experiment with in the future.
 
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I did call about having it ground way back when and the cost after shipping was well over 1000. I just dont think this machine warrents that expense. If this were a Monarch then I could see spending the $$. I however dont think its money well spent on a Rockwell.

Now if I can scrape it in better than what it currently is and all im out is a few dollars for tools then maybe. I would have a more usable tool and learn a skill which I have not tried yet.

A man with all the tools and skills still shouldn't take on complete lathe reconditioning on a machine not worthy of it. You, with a lot to learn (not a bad thing by any means, just means it will be a longer journey) and no equipment tackling a lathe not worth scraping is double jeopardy.

As for the scraping hardened beds, Harry proves it can be done with his "wreck", a sticky in the Monarch section. He's a better man than me....I tried a section. Ug. I think if you spent all the hours you are about to put into a hardened bed on a Rockwell lathe working at the counter at McDicks, you'd sooner have enough for late model 10ee than finish the Rockwell :)
 
Fair enough... I do need to check into finding a test bar, just have not done so yet. Regardless, I would like to learn scraping and try my hand at it in the future. Maybe my lathe is, or is not, the best candidate. Scraping is still something I would like to learn and experiment with in the future.

By all means I agree! From time to time scraping classes are offered in various places about the country and they are announced here. Back in 2007 (or mebbe 2006) I took the class offered by Forrest Addy and hosted by 10 fingers at his business in Springfield VT. Classes and other scraping related information are also offered by the aforementioned Richard King: Home Page and Worldwide Scraper Training | DAPRA Also just search this site on 'scraping' and you will get tons of info. It is often discussed here. There are a few books and videos on the subject and even some stuff on youtube.

While I really enjoy scraping it is still hard work and not trivial to learn. This is why I would try as hard as I could to avoid resorting to scraping.

-DU-
 
That would be the first Rockwell lathe with hard ways I ever heard of. If there are traces of factory scraping visible at the tailstock end of the machine, they're not hard. Also, one thing many people overlook is that if it has v-ways you'll need a spotting template, or you won't be able to maintain parallelism. Flat ways you could do with a good straight edge and a small surface plate with handles but it wouldn't be my idea of a fun time.

If you send out the lathe for regrinding, a reputable shop will bond a lining material to the underside of your carriage and remachine it to restore the original height. Otherwise your lead screw and feed shaft will be misaligned with the apron.
 
Work around the wear. The cross feed nut on my lathe has razor sharp acme threads (soft nut/hard screw) so they're quite severely worn but I haven't fixed it because it still makes good parts.

Do a little Pythagorean theorem and you'll see that it takes pretty significant bed wear to make a very noticeable effect in a part's size.
 
That would be the first Rockwell lathe with hard ways I ever heard of. If there are traces of factory scraping visible at the tailstock end of the machine, they're not hard. Also, one thing many people overlook is that if it has v-ways you'll need a spotting template, or you won't be able to maintain parallelism. Flat ways you could do with a good straight edge and a small surface plate with handles but it wouldn't be my idea of a fun time.

If you send out the lathe for regrinding, a reputable shop will bond a lining material to the underside of your carriage and remachine it to restore the original height. Otherwise your lead screw and feed shaft will be misaligned with the apron.

There are no signs of hand scraping under the head stock. Maybe it doesnt mean what I think it means but it has a tag that says flame hardened ways. From everything I have read this means the ways are hardened .. but heck if I know.

I get what you mean about adding lucite or whatever they use to the carriage to retain the original height. My question is why not just cut the apron (I think thats what its called) slightly to compensate. I cant see them needing to grind more than .010 out of the bed which I would think translates to .010 out of the apron to compensate.

Maybe im just not understanding
 
My question is why not just cut the apron (I think thats what its called) slightly to compensate. I cant see them needing to grind more than .010 out of the bed which I would think translates to .010 out of the apron to compensate.

Maybe im just not understanding
That will mess up your gear mesh between the carriage spur and bed rack.
 
Can you share a little more on how you were using an electric die grinder to aid in the process. Not to mention I have no idea what ALOX or Cratex bits are. Im just trying to picture in my head how the die grinder could be used.

Im not looking for perfect... I however would love to get the lathe back within the .0005 tolerance it came with from the factory. Not sure its possible with my skill and experience level but ya never know.


I had made the first attempts with a hand scraper and then a Biax, both with carbide bits, The hand scraper was an enormous effort to even mark the steel and the Biax was trying to dislocate my shoulder with what ever cutting bit angle I went for. I'm not a long time scraper hand like Forrest Addy or Richard King and I knew when I'd met my match. I decided to use the electric die grinder in a fashion similar to that used with a hand scraper (I'd seen the lads at work doing similar when working on steam tight metal-to-metal 2300psi half joint flanges on steam turbine casings, so I knew it was possible). Instead of moving the scraper forwards for the cut, you swipe the grinding bit sideways, aiming to hit the high point and nothing else. It takes some practice to get the coordination and rhythm right, but that applies to scraping as well. I used a lapping plate every few passes to help increase the amount of bearing. Marking blue on a straight edge was used to indicate the high points, the same as in scraping. I'd already rough ground the bed on my surface grinder, but had a nasty half thou trench in the middle of the bed due to having to do the work in two passes.


This was the lathe bed:-

spot-grinding.jpg



And this was the sort of result I was getting:-


spots.jpg





ALOX was aluminium oxide mounted points and Cratex is the trade name of a common rubber bonded abrasive that's available in various shapes and grits.


For 1 1/2 thou of error towards the chuck, I'd advise the same as the others:- live with it for now. For small work it won't be too much of an issue, since the length of the part will be small enough that any taper should be small, for long work, try to work further away from the headstock to avoid the worn area. I managed that way for five years with my first lathe before I managed to get it re-ground. Re-scraping and refurbishing a lathe in spare time is a bit of a labour of love if you aren't in a position to sub it out. It took me four years to rebuild the Hardinge, albeit it was scrap metal when I got it. In your case, the error is small enough to work around for a while while you build up the finances or skills to fix it, including a spare lathe to keep you going, if needed:D.


As to the comments about apron alignment. Yes, you can remove an amount from the top of the apron to account for the amount removed from the bed and the underside of the carriage. If the lathe has a power cross feed, you'd need to cut new gears to allow for a smaller centre-centre distance. No power cross feed and it's a no-brainer...


regards
Mark
 
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Related to this problem, does anyone know why something like this can't be fixed with brush plating? Brush plating is regularly used to electroplate nickel or chrome onto shafts and such to add metal and bring them back into spec. Some Bridgeports have chromed ways, so plating onto cast iron isn't a problem. The lathe bed ends are unworn making a perfect reference for the rest of the bed. If you just selectively add metal there is no need to have to monkey with the gear box, apron, etc to bring them back into line or grind the entire length of the bed to fix one worn area near the chuck. Yet, it doesn't seem that this is commonly done.

Anyone know why?

Steve
 








 
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