WTB - Graziano Sag 12
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  1. #1
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    Default WTB - Graziano Sag 12

    If you have one, or hear of one for sale...

    Graz Sag 12 (not 12's') wanted, in good working condition.

    Pref. with orig. tooling.

    Will pay asking price for a nice machine. I'm in CA, but will drive to pick up within 3 states, or arrange shipping if necessary.

    Please PM or call David (510) 355-4795

    Thanks!
    Shaggy

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    Thought you were originally looking for a 40" 14?

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    Hi Bill. Yeah, that was before I discovered the 12

    Small footprint, for the heft and sophistication. In that regard I don't think there's anything like it.

    Sag 14, even the short bed, is pushing my space limits.

    BTW, how often do you blokes come across a Sag 12 down there?
    Last edited by shaggy; 10-25-2020 at 01:25 PM.

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    Not hugely thick on the ground, due to a deep suspicion of 60s/70s Italian electrical quality probably. A mate up the coast has one, but I'd say 14s outsold them handily and appear more available.

    I remember you mentioning a mori a while back, the Japanese did a range of short bed, high quality lathes back in the day, with takisawa, ikegai, hamatu, etc making them off the top of my head. I'm not sure I'd restrict myself to one brand in this size on the off-chance of a good buy. Orbital77 posted this site a while back, several tasty compact machines there, which can give you models to keep an eye peeled out for!

    USED lathe IN JAPAN FOR SALE│GROWTH POWER:BUY JAPANESE USED HEAVY EQUIPMENT HERE

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    Have you looked at Webb TSL-800's?

    I think there as good as a Graziano, especially if you get the Webb with the 2 speed motor. What seems to be common across TSL-800's is the bedway wear. I haven't seen one that has had any significant wear, regrdless of the use it had. The one I had I think might have been from the 60-70's and had ZERO bedway wear.

    I had a Webb TSL-800 and loved it. A great advantage with the Webb, and most other lathes is that the speed control is mechanical, rather than the Graziano electric clutches.

    There was a thread somewhere that detailed somebodies attempt at rewinding the Graziano clutches.

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    Thanks Bill, yes you're right, there'd be nothing wrong with a good Japanese machine. Here's a 'little' Okuma LK I had the hots for awhile ago - O/A length only 66 inches, weight is listed as 3800 lbs(!)

    okuma-14x23.jpg

    Not cheap at $6500, but super-clean and fully-tooled. Unfortunately too far away from me. Shipping would have brought it to 8,000. Though, for this machine, that would have been a fair price compared to the stupid amounts I see asked for much lesser machines.

    So yeah, I'm open minded, but there seems to be scant few machines of this kind of quality, capable of both precision and serious metal removal, in such a small footprint.

    PS - for that matter, both LeBlonde and Cincinatti in the 1960s and '70s made heavy-but-short 15 x 30s (or thereabouts) that I've considered, and they're are not hard to find, although in my area prices are not low. How they compare in accuracy with these top-shelp foreign makes, I don't know. I'd love to hear any comparisons.
    Last edited by shaggy; 10-25-2020 at 08:32 PM.

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    Will take a look, thanks. There's a few names that look decent to me (Sharp is another) whether or not Taiwanese I'm not certain. Nothing wrong if they are, necessarily, but the ones I'm seeing tend on the larger size - 17" or 22" swings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaggy View Post
    Thanks Bill, yes you're right, there'd be nothing wrong with a good Japanese machine. Here's a 'little' Okuma LK I had the hots for awhile ago - O/A length only 66 inches, weight is listed as 3800 lbs(!)

    okuma-14x23.jpg

    Not cheap at $6500, but super-clean and fully-tooled. Unfortunately too far away from me. Shipping would have brought it to 8,000. Though, for this machine, that would have been a fair price compared to the stupid amounts I see asked for much lesser machines.

    So yeah, I'm open minded, but there seems to be scant few machines of this kind of quality, capable of both precision and serious metal removal, in such a small footprint.

    PS - for that matter, both LeBlonde and Cincinatti in the 1960s and '70s made heavy-but-short 15 x 30s (or thereabouts) that I've considered, and they're are not hard to find, although in my area prices are not low. How they compare in accuracy with these top-shelp foreign makes, I don't know. I'd love to hear any comparisons.
    I ran an Okuma LS lathe for a few hundred hours in the 80's, fantastic lathe. I'd expect that one to be as good. I ran a few Mori-Seiki MS850's, I think the Okuma was better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    I ran an Okuma LS lathe for a few hundred hours in the 80's, fantastic lathe. I'd expect that one to be as good. I ran a few Mori-Seiki MS850's, I think the Okuma was better.
    Yeah, they look rock solid. Here's that one's big brother, on CL Mesa Arizona (or it was - probably won't last long):

    okuma-21-x-50.jpg

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    Default Big swing, short bed

    Do the Japanese have a thing for stocky lathes? From that website back a bit:

    gl-120.jpglpt-35c.jpgpros400-620.jpg

    I'll take a guess and say these are more for their home market, rather than what they usually export(?)

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    Haven't been to Japan in almost 40 years, but if you ever stumbled across some of the tiny machine shops there, you can understand why....this place looks larger than some in Tokyo you see -
    Guy idolises a Japanese engineering master | Guy Martin Proper - YouTube

    Guy looks like he likes to live almost as dangerously operating a lathe as riding the bike too!

    Probably some of the machinery never made it offshore due to lack of distributors. That little Okuma looks sweet I must say!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaggy View Post
    Do the Japanese have a thing for stocky lathes?
    Dunno. Fastest way to tell if an Asian female is Chinese or Japanese?

    Japanese have heavier bone mass in the great toe, more knock-need from a life spent kneeling childhood to old-age. "Radish legs" (as-in Daikon) the Chinese call that.

    Whereas the Chinese invented stools and chairs, early-on, have more balanced distribution of bone in the walk-forever feet, characteristically VERY well-formed legs if nothing else.

    Machine tools are lower to the ground as well as shorter of bed?

    Why would they build anything at all as didn't fit their market's need?


    Page Two:

    Why a Graziano? You know right up front it won't be anywhere close to new and WILL be an orphan as far as unobtanium parts?

    South Korean Webb/Whacheon is still in volume production, most parts CAN be had, even for older ones.

    Same again Germany's Weiler or Czech Trens. Monarch Lathe carry both of those.

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    "Dunno. Fastest way to tell if an Asian female is Chinese or Japanese?

    Japanese have heavier bone mass in the great toe, more knock-need from a life spent kneeling childhood to old-age. "Radish legs" (as-in Daikon) the Chinese call that.

    Whereas the Chinese invented stools and chairs, early-on, have more balanced distribution of bone in the walk-forever feet, characteristically VERY well-formed legs if nothing else.

    Machine tools are lower to the ground as well as shorter of bed?

    Why would they build anything at all as didn't fit their market's need?"

    You are a really stupid and disgusting troll, termite!

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    I have one
    A nice one even
    Shipping might be a issue (DAP €1500 probably ) but not overwhelming
    http://veltmanmachines.nl/en/vm/lathes/draaibank-graziano-sag-12/


    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    I have one
    A nice one even
    Shipping might be a issue (DAP €1500 probably ) but not overwhelming
    http://veltmanmachines.nl/en/vm/lathes/draaibank-graziano-sag-12/


    Peter
    Delivery At Place California end-user? Or Seaport?

    Helluva deal either way, given what we are accustomed to, stateside, not even a sea freight leg involved at all!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Delivery At Place California end-user? Or Seaport?

    Helluva deal either way, given what we are accustomed to, stateside, not even a sea freight leg involved at all!

    Last year I had a Hardinge HLV H shipped to Irvine CA Shipping quote DAP(deleivered at place ) was less as €1000,- That is no tailgate service, no time delivery, commercial adress
    You have to account for ISF filling That is something the buyer has to do Costs about €150 Then a wooden crate Costs about €250,- Crating I do for free
    Insureance about €40 A bit more as the SAG12 is a bit heavier Pretty good guess tstill
    I do not know how Corona affects shipping costs

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Last year I had a Hardinge HLV H shipped to Irvine CA Shipping quote DAP(deleivered at place ) was less as €1000,- That is no tailgate service, no time delivery, commercial adress
    You have to account for ISF filling That is something the buyer has to do Costs about €150 Then a wooden crate Costs about €250,- Crating I do for free
    Insureance about €40 A bit more as the SAG12 is a bit heavier Pretty good guess tstill
    I do not know how Corona affects shipping costs

    Peter
    Even with Euro/USD and the admin stuff, that is LESS than my average Eastern USA DIY go-fetch for most of my Old Iron.

    Which is why my interest perked up!

    Too late for me, I got what I got when I got it.

    But ex-Europe could cost the OP less than ex US Midwest or ex US East coast.

    And almost certainly get him a machine-tool in better condition.

    Graziano's stateside are rare enough, ANY condition.

    Well-treated ones of known provenance have to be in the same class as Unicorns or gaming tables not favouring the "house".

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    Graziano's stateside are rare enough, ANY condition.

    Well-treated ones of known provenance have to be in the same class as Unicorns or gaming tables not favouring the "house".
    Graziano's are not that rare in So Cal, I certainly have seen more Graziano's than I've seen Okuma manual lathes around here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaggy View Post
    Do the Japanese have a thing for stocky lathes? From that website back a bit:

    gl-120.jpglpt-35c.jpgpros400-620.jpg

    I'll take a guess and say these are more for their home market, rather than what they usually export(?)
    No idea how tall you are, but any of those lathes (and a Webb TSL) will likely require raising up to get to a comfortable height for you.

    I'm 5'9" and would have raised the Webb I had 4-6" if I had kept it. I even find the Sag14 a few inches too low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    I have one
    A nice one even
    Shipping might be a issue (DAP €1500 probably ) but not overwhelming
    http://veltmanmachines.nl/en/vm/lathes/draaibank-graziano-sag-12/


    Peter
    Thanks Peter, nice, but I suspect the eventual cost might even outweigh my Sag 12 obsession.

    ...still kicking myself for missing out on my 3000- 'fairly local' one.


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