WTB - Tool and Cutter Grinder

jbacc · Jan 4, 2022

Good Afternoon,

I am not sure why, but I have a desire to purchase a tool and cutter grinder. I have a lot of horizontal mill cutters that I can practice sharpening on.

This is not my livelihood so the time spent learning and actually sharpening cutters is not an issue. I do not need a tool and cutter grinder just like I do not need any of my machines. This is for enjoyment and mental therapy...LOL

Like many, I have limited space but I might be enticed to get rid of a current machine or two to make room if a nice tool and cutter grinder became available.

The Cincinnati #2 interests me but I am open to other makes and models. I live in NJ but willing to drive a fair distance to pick up a decent machine at a fair price.

Thank you.

Joe

michiganbuck · Jan 4, 2022

A Cincinnati #2 with a (1.) work head and arbors will sharpen mill cutters, also with a (2.)centers set with mandrills or between centers arbors using a (3.) finger ( tooth rest bar and finger holder) to hold each tooth at the desired position.

Good to free download the cinci operators manual for sharpening ideas that can be employed on many other TC grinders.

You can even shapen indexable insert cutters to some extent by changing the side cutting angle a little and resharpening at a predetermined wear land perhaps .020 or so. yes, concern about the facets that pocket the insert so you may not be able to sharpen all sides. In some cases losing the coating may suffer 10 or 20% or so of tool life.

Diamond cup wheels are used on carbide and running dry is ok with a little more diamond loss.

It is common to set a mill jack under a standard Cinci work head set-up doing larger mill cutters, ones you cant lift by hand.

michiganbuck · Jan 4, 2022

#2 Cutter Grinder - Cincinnati Machines

Copy to your computer
http://users.beagle.com.au/lathefan/#2 TC grinder001.pdf

Page46
Page 47&48 turn the table tp around to run a larger mill cutter

For the amount to drop wheel for clearance is
Cutter Dia x desired clearance x 87 = drop,
Example 5" dia cutter need 6* OD clearance so 5 x 6 x 87 = 2610 the drop below center is .261.
confirm by looking at page 62 of the manual.

The cinci work head had a radial protractor but most guys just use the 87 rule.

M.B. Naegle · Jan 4, 2022

In my experience, the machines come cheap, while the table fixturing/tooling is expensive (and that stuff is 90% of how the machine works). Bare machines could be as cheap as a few hundred dollars, but you could end up spending several thousand for tooling, if you can find it, and while some can interchange across different machines, there are plenty of odd-ball T&C grinders out there that were at some point sold in an auction without any of their kit included. So unless you're like me trying to save 120 year-old basket-cases, it's worth it to spend extra on a machine that has a lot of tooling with it (or at least the pieces you know you'll need).

Technical Ted · Jan 4, 2022

I know you didn't ask for it, but here's a link to what some consider the tool and cutter grinder bible:

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1834/6637.pdf

I have a Cincinnati #1 T&C grinder as well as a small KO lee. The #1 is not as common as the #2 but the size is a little smaller and perfect for my home shop. The KO Less is nice too, but mine doesn't have the ball bearing table so it's not as smooth to operate. It will do the job though. As others have said, accessories are going to cost you so look for a package deal. Grinding wheel hubs can be VERY expensive as well, so look for a them included if you can find a deal.

Ted

BuffDan · Jan 4, 2022

There's a posting on FB marketplace, a guy in Palmyra selling K. O. Lee model # B6060BB cutter grinder with work head #B6043 for $325

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/477444163896656/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A5e0fda1e-00a5-4be7-a533-5d20114d2b5c

jbacc · Jan 4, 2022

BuffDan said:
There's a posting on FB marketplace, a guy in Palmyra selling [FONT="]K. O. Lee model # B6060BB surface grinder with work head #B6043 for $325

[/FONT]https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/477444163896656/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A5e0fda1e-00a5-4be7-a533-5d20114d2b5c

Thank you all so much for your input, I do appreciate it. I actually touched base with the seller of this machine via messenger. Seems like a nice person and I told him I wanted the machine even though it’s over 5 hours away from me. He said he would get back to me the following day, he wanted to be sure that everything worked as I asked.

Next morning he increased the price as he thought the power head was not working properly. I did not balk, I asked him to send me some additional photos and to give me first opportunity to buy the machine at the new price. He said he would send me a video of the machine operating but as of this evening, I have not heard back from the seller which is why I posted a WTB thread.

I have been perusing Facebook marketplace, Ebay and Craigslist but nothing really jumps out at me at a reasonable price. There is a vendor in NJ, Machinery Values that was s relatively close to where I live but their prices are ridiculous.

Thanks again to all.

I will take a look at the links for manuals and literature that others have graciously posted links to.

Joe

Technical Ted · Jan 4, 2022

I saw that ad as it's not too far from me and I keep an eye on FB MP. One thing to consider is I don't believe that table rides on ball bearings; just little "wheel sets". See this link as it appears to be for that model, but you should check to verify. I just did a quick search and am not an expert on these machines. Maybe the table slides smooth as silk, but it's something to check.

https://leblondusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/B6060Series.pdf

I'm not saying it's a bad machine as I have one that doesn't ride on balls. But, it won't be as nice and smooth as the better models that do. KO Lee does make better models as well, but you'll probably pay more. The spin head is a nice feature.

Just thought I'd throw this out there for something for you to consider and maybe use to lower his price if you're interested. Also, realize it is 3 phase, but your other equipment probably is as well...

Edit: Looks like they call what I referred to as "wheel sets" oil rollers, so it might be just a simple cast iron way design??? I thought they were actually wheels like some old surface grinders use (i.e. some old B&S), but they might be for lubrication only???

Ted

BuffDan · Jan 4, 2022

I have a B6060 and its ball bearing

Technical Ted · Jan 4, 2022

For a point of reference, here's the design of my #1 Cincinnati T&C grinder which uses two rows of ball bearings each held in a nylon linear cage to maintain spacing. Now, I'm not bashing the KO Lee design. I'm just comparing my limited experience between my KO Lee and Cincy and my personal preference. There are a lot of KO Lees out there doing a great job! I just like the smooth moving table of the Cincy over the KO Lee.

YMMV,
Ted

jbacc · Jan 4, 2022

Would it be inappropriate or a violation of the rules to place this WTB in the general discussion forum? I think it would get more exposure but I do not want to violate any rules or protocols.

Thanks.

Joe

EmGo · Jan 4, 2022

jbacc said:
There is a vendor in NJ, Machinery Values that was s relatively close to where I live but their prices are ridiculous.

Don't be afraid to make an offer if you see something you like. Since so many people want to bargain, most dealers will jack up the price so they can have room to give a discount.

Money talks

jbacc · Jan 5, 2022

EmanuelGoldstein said:
Don't be afraid to make an offer if you see something you like. Since so many people want to bargain, most dealers will jack up the price so they can have room to give a discount.

Money talks

Thank you.

Technical Ted · Jan 5, 2022

jbacc said:
Would it be inappropriate or a violation of the rules to place this WTB in the general discussion forum? I think it would get more exposure but I do not want to violate any rules or protocols.

Thanks.

Joe

I would think if you have specific questions about tool and cutter grinders you could change the subject to that/those questions and make a new post in the abrasive machining forum. That's what I would do anyways... Leave this one as it is.

Ted

jbacc · Jan 5, 2022

Technical Ted said:
I would think if you have specific questions about tool and cutter grinders you could change the subject to that/those questions and make a new post in the abrasive machining forum. That's what I would do anyways... Leave this one as it is.

Ted

Thank much for your advice, Ted.

I did leave out an important piece of information, I already have a Harig 6x18 surface grinder. I use it now and then and even wondered if I could use it to sharpen milling cutters. Based on the posts of I have here and other forums, the consensus seems to be a SG is not the machine for that.

Thanks again.

Joe

michiganbuck · Jan 5, 2022

The Ko Lee is os an Ok machine, the Cinci #1 and #2 are high-performance heavy-duty sharpening machines. The B$S 13 grinder is a more high precision but not as fast as the Cincis. The Royal Oak is a very good radial relief machine that lends to crushable wheels, the Cincy Monoset is pretty much a do-anything machine with also having spiral ability but is not as well suited to the bigger work like the Cincy type.

For sharpening much work the ability to make a quick set-up is king and often the movement fo grinding is only an inch or so.

Ball or roller movements are good when in good condition, there is nothing wrong with oil scraper way machines.

Fixturing/tooling is king, a work head center and a tooth rest set up are desirable to have, a collet set and holder can be handy, a few extra wheel mounts if using diamond wheels, Index devices, ability to reverse the spindle direction, a quick set indicator holder, a magnifying glass and a loop, homemade angle checkers/gauges, set of jo blocks and a plate, a small steel flat plate that an indicator can be added to.

Quick setup is aided by simply holding the cutter si the need to grind facet can be visually related to the wheel and travel..and the imaging what fixturing will place it there... Bump and adjust to match existing is quicker than trying to make a master set up with dials and numbers.

Good to target primary sharpening needs and tool up for that. Any shop using reamers would benefit having a TC grinder.

wood2steel · Jan 5, 2022

Too bad you're not in the southeast. I have 7 various Tool and cutter grinders(Cincinnati, B & S, k o lee, etc) in house and need to thin the herd a bit.. Definitely 2 K.O. Lee's that may be leaving home

wood2steel · Jan 5, 2022

Sending PM. Will fill you in on additional T & G assessories in the inventory

CalG · Jan 5, 2022

jbacc said:
Thank much for your advice, Ted.

I did leave out an important piece of information, I already have a Harig 6x18 surface grinder. I use it now and then and even wondered if I could use it to sharpen milling cutters. Based on the posts of I have here and other forums, the consensus seems to be a SG is not the machine for that.

Thanks again.

Joe

Lack of table swing (angular) is a big limitation for a SG when applied to T&C work.

I have both, and would never consider the SG as a make do substitute for the T&C.

Tim in Indiana · Jan 5, 2022

I have a KO Lee T&C grinder I would sell. Same model that's on Market place. I'm in north central Indiana so quite a drive for you if you're interested.

Tim

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