DeVlieg and other sacred Japanese machines

excellent article about aging production machines
in Japan

even a link to DeVlieg pdf promotional literature


http://www.iamachinery.com/brochures/scans/0260.pdf


Loyalty to 1960s Machine Shows Risk From Japan?s Aging Factories - Bloomberg Business

That article is misleading and written from an American point of view. What isnt mentioned that Japanese companies continue to make profits with older machinery. This older machinery keeps more people employed and that adds to the overall economy of the country. It is a system of respect and devotion that goes both ways in a company. From the owner to the workers and from the workers to the owner. It is a system that goes beyond just business and deals with Community. Which of course is a culture that is missing in many US companies that are not privately owned.

Thanks for sharing.

Charles

Charles

here is my take on this article--

the two writers credited for the article-
Keiko Ujikane and Masatsugu Horie are listed as Bloomberg
Business employees and located in Tokyo and Osaka respectively

a few days after Bloomberg 21 April 2015 initial publication
Japanese based news agencies reproduced it

I am not so certain the article reflects the American point of view as much as reverence for aging --both vintage equipment and elderly workforce

Japanese rarely include american produced machines in their
facility photos---
I view this as something of a breakthrough




jh

CBlair said:

That article is misleading and written from an American point of view. What isnt mentioned that Japanese companies continue to make profits with older machinery. This older machinery keeps more people employed and that adds to the overall economy of the country. It is a system of respect and devotion that goes both ways in a company. From the owner to the workers and from the workers to the owner. It is a system that goes beyond just business and deals with Community. Which of course is a culture that is missing in many US companies that are not privately owned.

Thanks for sharing.

Charles

Click to expand...

I think perspective even in the US varies quite a bit - I spent all day today visiting shops that run nothing but 60's era DeVliegs. For the niche boring mill needs we have, they are perfect. The new CNC HBMs would be way more machine (capability-wise) than we need, and the hourlies on them winds up being three times as much.

There are still a lot of shops here at home making a living on manual HBMs.

J, there is certainly room for many interpretations. However the basis of my post was that the companies they are writing about dont follow the kind of financial planing. It is the difference between long term planning and short term rewards. The article was written in the American short term rewards type of business financial planning. Encouraging more investment and less capitol on hand. What do you expect from a report by a financial investment company?

Not that it is bad advise but most of the Japanese companies that they are writing about dont use that kind of financial model. They are more conservative and tend to plan for the long term rather than quarterly profits. They buy machines that last a long time and invest a lot in employees that they expect to be around for a long time. They could make things a bit cheaper by continually borrowing and investing in new technology but they choose not to do that.

This would take a long time and lots to go over. And there isnt a right or wrong, My only point is that the article doesnt take into account the way those kind of Japanese companies think.

Thanks for posting it,

Charles

The problem(?) with Devliegs is that they were fantastically well made, so most of them are still in pretty good shape. They have soft ways, so they can be rescraped to true them up. They mostly ran low volume parts, so they never had many hours put on them.

The result is a machine that is obsolete from a technical standpoint. But, there are plenty of used machines out there to satisfy the market needs. Additionally, it would be completely insane to try building brand new manual machines that are as expensive as a Devlieg was when it was new.

So, just like it's vertical cousin, the jig bore, it's obsolete and outdated technology that still comes in handy at times. Thus, you find plenty of shops with one or two running a few parts here and there.

Now the part where I take cover:

Running a Devlieg is a PITA in my opinion. The controls are all over the place. The quill travel and Z platten travel are too short. The machines are not very rigid and are pretty poor at milling.

In today's world of inexpensive, super accurate digital readouts, the Devlieg is just a luxury item. Pretty much any manual boring mill can now achieve Devlieg accuracy and be a hell of a lot easier to use. Something like a Wotan boring mill with all the controls on the side of the spindle would beat the pants off a Devlieg, and can actually do some milling.

Ewlsey makes some good points ,I have noticed that Devliegs seem to go for a lot less over here than say ten years ago ,I think in the hands of an operator who uses one all the time and has done for years, they can do good work ,problem is those guys have mostly retired or soon will just like the Japanese fella in the article.

ewlsey said:

The problem(?) with Devliegs is that they were fantastically well made, so most of them are still in pretty good shape. They have soft ways, so they can be rescraped to true them up. They mostly ran low volume parts, so they never had many hours put on them.

The result is a machine that is obsolete from a technical standpoint. But, there are plenty of used machines out there to satisfy the market needs. Additionally, it would be completely insane to try building brand new manual machines that are as expensive as a Devlieg was when it was new.

So, just like it's vertical cousin, the jig bore, it's obsolete and outdated technology that still comes in handy at times. Thus, you find plenty of shops with one or two running a few parts here and there.

Now the part where I take cover:

Running a Devlieg is a PITA in my opinion. The controls are all over the place. The quill travel and Z platten travel are too short. The machines are not very rigid and are pretty poor at milling.

In today's world of inexpensive, super accurate digital readouts, the Devlieg is just a luxury item. Pretty much any manual boring mill can now achieve Devlieg accuracy and be a hell of a lot easier to use. Something like a Wotan boring mill with all the controls on the side of the spindle would beat the pants off a Devlieg, and can actually do some milling.

Click to expand...

I think to say that DeVliegs are obsolete is a bit of an overstatement - I've seen quite a few shops with quite a few DeVliegs (some retrofitted, some not) that make a boatload of parts.

Again, it's probably an industry by industry thing, but for making machine bases and other similar items, old manual DeVliegs are a perfect fit. To say they're obsolete is like saying 2 axis Bridgeports are obsolete - may be true in some senses, but not necessarily in others.

Obsolete simply means "no longer made". It does not mean "no longer useful". Refer to shapers, planers, jig bores, horizontal mills, turret lathes, turret drills, peg board lathes, cam screw machines, camel back drill presses, die filers, tracer mills, and on and on.

Like I said, 50 years ago, no one could compete with the "spiromatic" positioning system. The only way to get that kind of accuracy with a regular boring mill was tool makers buttons. Today, you can slap on a DRO and go to town.

Love it. 50+ years ago was at NASA and using tool makers buttons.

Spent some time working with Japanese companies over the last few decades, reading the OP, the one word that jumps to mind is 'strategy', the Japanese plan these things. Maybe it is like the old days where you swept the floors first. Use a manual mill before they let you on the new CNC stuff. And it is respect of course as previously mentioned.

Thanks for the post JHOLLAND1!

Something not yet mentioned about these guys is fidelity. It runs deep and true in them and unless somebody betrays trust they are like family – all in. So an affection to an old tool is as strong as a 1000 year old family sword would be. They are just plain dogmatic at things.

The article says Takata feels emotionally attached to his oldest piece of equipment and also said “I have no plan to abandon this one,” and “The question is whether I’ll stop working before it does.”

I'd prolly like to be around him!

That's an early “H” machine looks to be a 3H-36 maybe. All the controls except spindle manual feed, spindle stop turret, platen stop and spindle speed pre-select are on the box between the two bars behind his head. Depending on finger dexterity & which control box it had, you could make most everything inch, feed or rapid at the same time.

Guys got really fast with these machines. Once used to the button positions they'd run X, Y, platen and spindle rapids at the same time if you wanted too. The table & column locks, coolant and feed (spindle and milling) are close at hand. I trolled for videos & this guy kinda does it, but not near like running it every day would... “H” model, then “K”model below. OOPS! 1 vid at a time... Linked the second


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1UGzCJmTqU

Pics of controls below "H" then "K"... these were a handle turners dream machine. Every power control is here. Some guys inched the travels for position I rather used the dials. That was just me, I didn't like backing up & hunting for a number...

Matt

On Edit, you need to use both hands to make these rock & roll...

I spent the better part of a decade on a 4K-96 and a little bit on a 5K-120. Even though I haven't touched one in the last 20 years I think I could still do a pretty good job with one. The company I worked for at the time had all 4 running 55 hours a week. New management said they weren't needed and sold them all off. Last I heard they had to buy one back because nothing else could do a particular type of part. Although I'm obviously jaded I disagree that they aren't good milling machines, you just had to discover what worked best in a high torque low speed spindle.

J, Thanks for posting that article.

As for the shortcomings of the DeVlieg compared to an ordinary boring mill, if it works on an ordinary boring mill, run it there. DeVliegs were built for a higher class of work. DeVlieg felt their machines combined the rigidity of a boring mill with the precision of a jig bore. Not only did they have the positioning accuracy, they also had the geometric accuracy that simply can't be compensated.

DeVliegs were made for their local trade. They were made in DeTroit. Auto manufacturers needed lots of gear heads for production equipment. Just the ticket for a DeVlieg. Do all the work from the front side, boring with a spindle, which has an absolutely exquisite fit in the sleeve. It would give far rounder holes than boring with the table on a conventional boring mill. If you need to work on the opposite side of a workpiece, put it on an index table and turn it around. DeVlieg even built index holes in the tables of the machines for precise 90 degree indexing using (relatively) inexpensive E tables. The E tables didn't require complicated, high tolerance, and expensive rotary tables.