Haas vs Makino

Oh boo Haas 30hp is really a 18hp machine wasn't it? He didn't tell us if one had a 2 speed or direct drive or what the spindle load of the Makino was. That was a piss poor test.

He also had the parameter for spindle load in the Haas on. It shuts the machine down when it hits 100% load

JTerBeek said:

He also had the parameter for spindle load in the Haas on. It shuts the machine down when it hits 100% load

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The guy who made the video discussed it in depth on another forum. He had the load alarm set to 150% spindle load.

The Makino is a 14,000rpm integral spindle, and hit 100% load on the cut.

Be sure to watch part 2. Haas vs Makino part 2 - YouTube

He's not really comparing apples to apples.

The Haas is slower, but it has a lot more travel. Put a 25" tall part on the table and see what the Makino does. Or a 24" deep part.

I'm not a Haas fanboy, but this is kind of a stupid video. It's like saying a Corvette is faster than a Suburban and they cost the same. Let's see the Corvette haul 5 guys.


A Makino with as much travel as that Haas is gonna cost twice what he paid for the PS-95.

Does show that haas like to greatly over rate their stuff, along with a couple other brands, and since most people buying(and selling them..) them seem to believe nearly anything, turns out its a good marketing scheme.

At the last IMTS Makino said the have an option for 13 more inches under the spindle on the PS95. Didn't get the price on that and it's not on their web page. Came out at the same time they added the 50 tool option. Although they mention the 50 tool option there are no pics of it.

Is the 13" a riser or do you get another 13" of travel?

SND said:

Does show that haas like to greatly over rate their stuff, along with a couple other brands, and since most people buying(and selling them..) them seem to believe nearly anything, turns out its a good marketing scheme.

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Video was dumb, but I really hate the total bullshit marketing Haas does with the HP ratings, but like you said, marketing [Read: bullshit] sells machines. That sticker is much cheaper than a bigger motor, bigger VFD, ect, and it accomplishes the same goal with a much higher profit margin for Haas.

ewlsey said:

Is the 13" a riser or do you get another 13" of travel?

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I'm guessing a riser only. They had the specs at the show and that's the last time I've seen anything about it. I wasn't interested in the option so I didn't pay that close of attention, other than to make a mental note of it. Makino dosent keep up their web page all that well, The PS95 riser model isn't listed and the 50 tool machine is actully 60 tools.

ewlsey said:

He's not really comparing apples to apples.

The Haas is slower, but it has a lot more travel. Put a 25" tall part on the table and see what the Makino does. Or a 24" deep part.

I'm not a Haas fanboy, but this is kind of a stupid video. It's like saying a Corvette is faster than a Suburban and they cost the same. Let's see the Corvette haul 5 guys.


A Makino with as much travel as that Haas is gonna cost twice what he paid for the PS-95.

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I think for 99.9% of the work done in an average shop with a 40x20 machine, the travel differences between a PS-95 and VM-3 are negligible. It's not like he was comparing a 50 taper bridge mill to a drill tap machine, and proclaiming one was better because it was faster. These are two 40x20 class machines, with a $45,000 difference in price. You could do these exact same tests against a regular non-extended VF-3, or even VF-2, and the Makino is still going to embarrass the Haas. If a shop is doing the type of work where that additional travel of the Haas will outweigh the significant productivity increase of the Makino - then by all means, the VM-3 would be the right choice. In Bob's case, the $45,000 difference in cost between the two machines was made in a matter of weeks.

It's still a stupid video.

Seems pretty logical that a machine that costs 50% more should be at least 50% faster.

I think I can shed some light on this "test" cut as I examined this rather closely when we were in the market for a Makino PS95 or Okuma Genos 560. These were my findings based on what I believed to be the cutting parameters and tooling used to make the cut that I reported to my boss and colleagues...

Just for fun, I went back and took a good close look at the Haas vs. Makino video on YouTube. The cutting parameters are converted to metric for clarity and I believe the cutter is a Kennametal 2.5” (63.5mm) Mill 1-18 shoulder mill with 6 teeth.

3000 RPM, 120 IPM (3048mm/min), 1.5” (38.1mm) radial engagement and .5” (12.7mm) axial depth
598 M/min....... 3000 * 63.5 *.00314 = 598.17

It is worth noting that 598 M/min is about 63% of what is shown for the recommended starting point for Kennametal’s general purpose insert geometry used for heavy machining in aluminum.

.169 mm/tooth...... 3048 / 3000 / 6 = .1693

The feed per tooth is at 141% of the recommended starting value for the general purpose insert.

The metal removal rate is 1473.4 cm3/min...

The guy may be a little old-school and many of us still are in some respects. It is cool to see a big hogging cut sometimes. These cuts really show the torque requirements.

The power and torque required are as follows...

17.22 Kw or 23.09 HP
49.22 Nm or 36.3 lb/ft

As before, the following are best guesses, but the numbers below are derived from the product literature we have. There does not appear to be much difference. Both seem very capable of delivering all the power and torque we would to have them eat a Haas for lunch.

Spindle Power at 3000 RPM
Makino..... 22 Kw (Peak)... 18.5 Kw (15 min.)... 15 Kw (Cont.)
Okuma..... Unknown (Peak)... 18 Kw (10 min.)... 15 Kw (Cont.)

Torque at 3000 RPM...
Makino..... 75 Nm (Peak)... 60 Nm (15 min.)... 46 Nm (Cont.)
Okuma..... Unknown (Peak)... 54 Nm (10 min.)... 46 Nm (Cont.)

...So as you can see the numbers bear out the purported 100% spindle load on the Makino. The Okuma would be about the same in this cut with Makino just having maybe a slight edge in duty-rated torque. To think that the Haas would really stand a chance to compete with the Makino in this "test" is simply foolish. The guy obviously stacked the deck when he chose a cut at 100% load for the Makino. He should have chosen cutting parameters that would put 100% load on the Haas and contrasted the difference in load on the Makino in that cut.

--Gary

SDI-Gary said:

...So as you can see the numbers bear out the purported 100% spindle load on the Makino. The Okuma would be about the same in this cut with Makino just having maybe a slight edge in duty-rated torque. To think that the Haas would really stand a chance to compete with the Makino in this "test" is simply foolish. The guy obviously stacked the deck when he chose a cut at 100% load for the Makino. He should have chosen cutting parameters that would put 100% load on the Haas and contrasted the difference in load on the Makino in that cut.

--Gary

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In the thread on the other message board, he relayed that these same parameters at .250 DOC resulted in a 90% spindle load on the Haas. Then he went to the Makino and went deeper and deeper until it was at 100%. Then just for fun, he went back over to the Haas to try the same thing, and it shut down instantly at 150% load.

ewlsey said:

It's still a stupid video.

Seems pretty logical that a machine that costs 50% more should be at least 50% faster.

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No that it makes a difference, but the price difference is under $25K when you option the Haas out with the stuff that comes standard on the PS95.

I had to take the spindle motor out of my Haas SL30. To my surprise it said 20 hp on it. I know about the whole wye delta boosting power and all that ( which a burned up wye delta contactor was the reason I was looking at the motor in the first place ). Seems like it would be better to advertise actual hp and just let the vector drive be a bonus.

The Difference is when a buyer gets a Haas thinking its twice the machine/hp and what not of a Mazak or Mori or other top brand, for less $. WHAT A DEAL, double for less $.
I've had a bunch of people from buyers to sales guys tell me " that haas has 40Hp, the mori or mazak only had 20 so it was way weaker".... cause next to nobody knows anything about duty cycle and shopvac rating. Had one talk when looking for a high torque korean or okuma to turn fairly big inconel and such, and was then told " but the there's also the hurco which has more hp "... as in you're dumb enough to buy a machine on a 1min peak rating or 27hp instead of the other one with 25hp/cont... yeah...

Does quickly trim down the list though.

There's nothing wrong with any brand/machines, but sell them for what they are. Then again that's bad marketing, so lets just assume our customers who pay thousands for these things to earn money, are idiots.

Joe788 said:

I think for 99.9% of the work done in an average shop with a 40x20 machine, the travel differences between a PS-95 and VM-3 are negligible. It's not like he was comparing a 50 taper bridge mill to a drill tap machine, and proclaiming one was better because it was faster. These are two 40x20 class machines, with a $45,000 difference in price. You could do these exact same tests against a regular non-extended VF-3, or even VF-2, and the Makino is still going to embarrass the Haas. If a shop is doing the type of work where that additional travel of the Haas will outweigh the significant productivity increase of the Makino - then by all means, the VM-3 would be the right choice. In Bob's case, the $45,000 difference in cost between the two machines was made in a matter of weeks.

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Hmm Joe. I'm not in any way trying to proclaim any superiority of a Haas vs a Makino ( or most other name brands for that matter )

But!

A few things to ponder:
I am a jobshop for various average size parts, typically under a 3" cube ( perhaps 90% of the time )
QTY's are also ranging from a 1-off ( rare ) to 20-100 ( 70% ) to 200 or more ( rare )
Small ( maybe 20 % ) of my work is AL, the rest is overwhelmingly SST and above.
Any given day I have 10+ setups and breakdowns throughout the shop for 2 operators.

What I can say is that having a Haas VF4 with 3 D675 vises parallelled, a 5C collet block permanently mounted, a 6" rotary with 6 jaw chuck permanently under the umbrella changer is invaluable for what I do.
The 3 vises can hold a 15 x 30 subplate if flat work is needed, or they can hold long parts for ganging.

Now, for the guy above doing the test having the "need" for a 2.5" facemill taking a 1/4" deep pass on the top ..... Yes, the test is stupid and useless for anything other than HP comparison.
A slightly better test would have been to turn on Haas's feed-reduction feature ( instead of alarm or feedhold), set the limit to 100% and see how much longer it would take the Haas to
complete the face cut vs. the Makino.
A much better test would have been to put the same part on both machines, program it for both, and see how much better the Makino does. Again, it likely isn's a question that the Makino comes out ahead.

Even better yet, instead of just AL, put a bunch of materials - including Inco and TI - on the machine and test those as well.
I'd be curious if that Makino could push an 1.5" insert drill though TI faster than my VF4 does in low gear. Who knows, I'd might just be impressed.
I'd also be curious in tool life tests. You will never stall any VF series Haas with a 1/2" endmill no matter what you do. You also won't cut Inco @ 10,000RPM on a Makino.
Your cycle times on a part-per-part basis on both machines will be quite comparable actually, unless of course it's extensive 3D surfacing which I don't much care about normally.
What will differ however is how long that 1/2" endmill last on each machine. That WOULD be a valuable comparison.

That simple balls-to-the-wall comparison in the video was in fact useless and unfair.
Again, he could have turned on the "Autofeed" mode ( free and included on all Haas VF/SL/ST machines btw ) and see the time differences.
As it is, as shown on the Youtube video, one idiot watching it can claim ( typically a beancounter deskmonkey )that a Haas cannot drive a 2.5" facemill in Aluminum. Period.

I'm not here to bash any brand, but my $.02 goes like this:

Pictured is my 2011 VF3, 2008 Mori Dura Vertical, and 2007 Mazak 510. Each of these is a 40 x 20 CT40. Each machine has distinct advantages and disadvantages. We have run the same part number using the same tooling on each of these machines. Running the same aluminum parts, I can tell you that the Mori and the Mazak eat the Haas for lunch in regards to surface finishes, accuracy and overall cycle time. Best cycle time goes to Mazak. We have modified programs to match the abilities of the Haas, and we do have to slow things down a bit. When machining titanium, we do not consider putting that on the Haas. We have experienced much better results on the Japanese brands. The Mori seems slighty better than the Mazak on Ti and SS as well. But, versatility and ease of use goes to the Haas, hands down. For one off and short run work, my guys always try to do it on the VF 3 because they love the control and all the features. In the end, we are happy with each brand, but we know which machine works best for what task.