Haas vs Makino - Page 4
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 61 to 75 of 75

Thread: Haas vs Makino

  1. #61
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    13,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2168
    Likes (Received)
    3364

    Default

    just above this post is one person saying a local shop got rid of a Robodrill because it sucked,
    I asked about that machine since I posted. They ran one part on it, a 1018 bar stock part .360 wide, .200 thick 2.2" long with 3 tapped holes. My part actually, about 5000 of them. They used a 1/2" endmill to profile it and mill thickness and couldn't get a decent surface finish. From reading here the 1/2" EM was too big I guess.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Lewiston ID
    Posts
    1,251
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    198

    Default

    A 1/2" EM is definitely not too big, but their % of stepover in the cut might not be in line. Also we stay up on cutting tool technology a bit and what works in some machines that have power might not be suited for any 30 taper machine.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Westside of America.
    Posts
    3,291
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    682
    Likes (Received)
    907

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    But what was the price a few years ago? Did you get a quote? When was it and for what machine and options and what was the quote?

    I think the "Brother machines are a great value" thing is an Internet myth. Everyone says it, but nobody knows anyone who got any of these great deals, except back in 1995
    Still in my inbox. They had several available:



    I was not interested in this model though. I wanted a TC-32BNQT, which was around $120K, and significantly more machine than the S2C. (Side mount ATC, pallet changer, etc).

  4. Likes Edster liked this post
  5. #64
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    13,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2168
    Likes (Received)
    3364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seekins View Post
    A 1/2" EM is definitely not too big, but their % of stepover in the cut might not be in line. Also we stay up on cutting tool technology a bit and what works in some machines that have power might not be suited for any 30 taper machine.
    They were profiling 3/8 CRS bar down to .360. No idea about the carbide EM geometry. The robodrill had a 4th axis, the part was held in the chuck on the 4th axis, fellow I spoke to thought the height of the 4th above the ways of the X axis added to the problem.

  6. #65
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Lawrenceville GA USA
    Posts
    6,179
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    710
    Likes (Received)
    1321

    Default

    So what did work out in the end?

    Charles

  7. #66
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    13,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2168
    Likes (Received)
    3364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CBlair View Post
    So what did work out in the end?

    Charles
    You mean my part? They just made extra passes to get the finish OK and struggled through it then sold the machine. This is not the most savvy shop in the world, but they do big volume only and buy/sell machines like I change pants. Their biggest volume goes through HMCs with pallet pools, maybe they just weren't up to dealing with the small machine.

  8. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston MA
    Posts
    1,004
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    353
    Likes (Received)
    840

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe788 View Post
    Still in my inbox. They had several available:



    I was not interested in this model though. I wanted a TC-32BNQT, which was around $120K, and significantly more machine than the S2C. (Side mount ATC, pallet changer, etc).

    Thanks, I will need to look into it.... as much as I thought the price was high, the pre-sale service from Brother was phenomenal. After the first few people kept asking if I was talking about sewing machines (!!), they finally figured out who the Brother CNC machine department was. I got a call from the President of Brother USA who spent an hour on the phone going through all the various options. I don't remember why exactly we narrowed it down to the SD-2N but it seemed to be the one that directly compared to the Robodrill and DT-1.

    Thanks for the follow up - if that machine is competitive with the DT-1 on specs, it would be a no-brainer. Like I said, I am sold on the abilities of a Brother (or Robo) over a DT-1. But the price has to make sense.

  9. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston MA
    Posts
    1,004
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    353
    Likes (Received)
    840

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    LOL! Like I said buy what you want I don't care.

    The robodrill ECO is about as close as your gonna get to the base model DT. Are there some trade offs, yes, but I believe the ECO still comes out on top. If all you can see is the list price of the machine and you must have 6 extra tools and 2k more rpm than by all means go with the DT.

    The prices I have for brother machines and Robodrills have come from Yamazan and Methods. I don't know what to tell you here. You may not have got the price you wanted but that doesn't mean I or others that have posted here are FOS.
    It's cool Edster, I am not trying to get under your skin - I appreciate your feedback on this and I don't disagree with you that the DT-1 has some serious limitation. I am absolutely not trying to convince myself it's the best lightweight milling machine, because I am absolutely sure it's not. But I don't finance anything, I save up and I pay for it cash, so the difference in prices is something I feel maybe more than if it was just a slightly different monthly payment.

    You are giving me good information - the table capacity of the DT-1 is pretty shit compared to the Eco. Maybe not that important in my application, but it does make me wonder if running a DT-1 with 70% of it's max weight rating on the table is "beating the shit out of it" whereas running an Eco with 30% is a walk in the park.

    Can you tell me what your quote was from Yamazen? I am not trying to say people are FOS but they must be either talking about different machines or there is some secret handshake I am not aware of! I'm not some stroke that makes parts in my basement and dreams about having a shop and calls machine dealers to waste their time... I have a decent sized shop several employees and with several CNC mills and lathes and we are definitely looking to spend real money on expanding our production - just gotta make sense. If Bill Gates was my dad, I'd have 10 Robodrills with 5ths lined up... but unfortunately I gotta stroke that check myself.

  10. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston MA
    Posts
    1,004
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    353
    Likes (Received)
    840

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seekins View Post
    If you guys are pricing machines only based on the initial "price" you are missing the boat big time. With 3 robodrills (24000rpm ones that "dont last") in 3 years i have replaced um....the way lube..and they have ran pretty much 24/7 and rarely get shut off. Buddy has 2 DT's one first generation 15k spindle and one new one. Both have had more than 2 spindles replaced (4 on the first i belive). sure they are cheaper, sure they make parts but the accell/decell is not on par, surface finish is not the same and tool life is not the same.

    Now the DT's are out of warentee, so he can expect 2+ spindles per year (based on experience). We all know life expectancy of haas machines are not as long, so add life expectancy, repair, less tool life and down time into the cost and then tell me how much cheaper they are?? My VF2SS thats about 2 years old is starting to show some signs of getting loose and its babied..Maybe it doesnt matter to some but for us the Haas is the most expensive machine we have owned even if the initial cost was less.

    If the DT was only 20% of the cost of X machine i still wouldn't have one.
    Thanks for the feedback - that is helpful. I am getting a bit concerned about DT-1 spindles, because I would be running the thing at max RPM about 95% of the time. All aluminum, 50% of it is 3D profiling, and that is where the time is spend. We also build fixtures to put as many parts on the table as possible so the mill can run for hours at a time, and as soon as it's done, we have another fixture ready to go. It's not job shop work by any means.

    Why did you go for the 24k spindle? Do you find it helpful with aluminum? I love the speed but I noticed that it's also got a lot less power/torque (of course). Do you find you have to program differently when cutting aluminum?

    May I ask what the machines ran you (not trying to be nosey, just real curious what the cost looks like from a real buyer compared to my quotes).

    I am looking for this kind of performance

    3-axis high speed machining of aluminium part on FANUC Robodrill - YouTube


    When people talk about having to run steel differently, what about stuff like this?

    Methods Machine Tools Fanuc T21iFL Robodrill Milling Test - YouTube

    I don't think I could do that on my much bigger 40x20 machines!

  11. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Westside of America.
    Posts
    3,291
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    682
    Likes (Received)
    907

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    Thanks, I will need to look into it.... as much as I thought the price was high, the pre-sale service from Brother was phenomenal. After the first few people kept asking if I was talking about sewing machines (!!), they finally figured out who the Brother CNC machine department was. I got a call from the President of Brother USA who spent an hour on the phone going through all the various options. I don't remember why exactly we narrowed it down to the SD-2N but it seemed to be the one that directly compared to the Robodrill and DT-1.

    Thanks for the follow up - if that machine is competitive with the DT-1 on specs, it would be a no-brainer. Like I said, I am sold on the abilities of a Brother (or Robo) over a DT-1. But the price has to make sense.
    That was a few years ago, so that machine is now the TC-S2D as dstryr mentioned on the previous page, and should set you back around $80k nowadays.

  12. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Gilroy CA
    Posts
    4,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3165
    Likes (Received)
    2436

    Default

    The new S2Ds have Servo turrets....pretty sweet.

  13. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Lewiston ID
    Posts
    1,251
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    Thanks for the feedback - that is helpful. I am getting a bit concerned about DT-1 spindles, because I would be running the thing at max RPM about 95% of the time. All aluminum, 50% of it is 3D profiling, and that is where the time is spend. We also build fixtures to put as many parts on the table as possible so the mill can run for hours at a time, and as soon as it's done, we have another fixture ready to go. It's not job shop work by any means.

    Why did you go for the 24k spindle? Do you find it helpful with aluminum? I love the speed but I noticed that it's also got a lot less power/torque (of course). Do you find you have to program differently when cutting aluminum?

    May I ask what the machines ran you (not trying to be nosey, just real curious what the cost looks like from a real buyer compared to my quotes).

    I am looking for this kind of performance

    3-axis high speed machining of aluminium part on FANUC Robodrill - YouTube


    When people talk about having to run steel differently, what about stuff like this?

    Methods Machine Tools Fanuc T21iFL Robodrill Milling Test - YouTube

    I don't think I could do that on my much bigger 40x20 machines!
    the 24k spindle wont run a big EM in aluminum like that, but it absolutely kicks butt with the smaller tooling i run. I run allot of 1/4" EM's and for surfacing with a ball EM in aluminum RPM lets you go fast. If you want to use larger than 1/2" EM's i would get the 10k machine.

    Mine are pretty loaded up with DDR 4th and high speed everything you can think of with spindle and tool probes, convayer and tail stock they are about 125k. the 24,000 RPM option is allot and the DDR 4th is about 25k as well. there are a ton of options so what i have might not be what you are looking for. If you contact methods and send them a part they will do a study for you on run time vs whatever.

    Big plus- Either run every tool holder as big plus or none UNLESS you want to clean the spindle nose every time you want to put a big plus on (whatever machine you run)

  14. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Cool

    For the last 5 years we have had a haas ec400 with pallet changer
    It had all the bells and whistles we could get off hass at the time this machine has run 2 shifts per day since it was installed and about 1 year ago it started braking down a lot so we looked at other machines we brought a makino a61
    The difference between the to machines is night and day the Makino dose all of the hass machines work in 9hrs. Our tool breakage is down our part quality is up we were able to increase our mrr on most jobs by 30% and get better parts off the machine we have also been Able to run a new lights out shift something we could never efficiently achieve useing the ec400 because of tool breakage issues

    After one year the makino has made an extra $113,000 worth of parts and the machine cost and extra 210,000 so over 5 year the makino will make roughly 300k more once you account for the price difference and we are hope it doesn't brake as much as our haas

  15. #74
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    149

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seekins View Post
    Mine are pretty loaded up with DDR 4th and high speed everything you can think of with spindle and tool probes, convayer and tail stock they are about 125k. the 24,000 RPM option is allot and the DDR 4th is about 25k as well. there are a ton of options so what i have might not be what you are looking for. (whatever machine you run)
    That's actually within spitting distance of the price on a MILLTAP700 of the equivalent spec. The more options you add to one the better the price looks. I never even got a quote on a robodrill because Selway is my local dealer but I have a decked out Mori-DMG showing up shortly. How do they do the spindle cooling on a 24K robodrill? The MILLTAP is an air/oil spindle with a separate chiller on the Kessler spindle motor. When I met with the DMG rep. he had a full presentation where they bench-marked their machine in every category against the Robodrill, Brother, and hilariously the Haas DT-1. The DT-1 is really not in the same league. We'll see shortly how it actually performs but on paper it crushes every category other than initial price.

    Interestingly the MILLTAP700 is the least "DMG" (read needlessly complex) that I have ever seen...lets hope they embrace the new discipline across all their products.

  16. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    3,164
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    488
    Likes (Received)
    785

    Default

    Back in High Fidelity days I bought McIntosh, a 30 watt output. They didn't need to brag about their amplifiers, they just made excellent equipment.

    Talking about amplifiers, there are specs of, peak wattage, which is twice the RMS wattage they run at. The half baked amplifiers always advertised Peak Wattage.

    I strongly suspect horsepower is rated basically the same, because horsepower is watts/minute. Makino is way over that good.

    Regards,

    Stan-


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •