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    Default Makino u3 errors

    Brand new machine. Yellow warning 2222 and a red warning about a bad EIS card and another about a 60 second macro timer reset. Anyone else have issues like these and have work around? I set up a work peice at g59 and used the auto plane correct function. I let the machine sit for a few minutes while I reset some cutting paths in my cad program. I was able to home, set g59 via corner find, auto plane correct, then the machine threw up 6 yellow and red alarms after it sat for a few minutes. I powered it down via the control and upon power up and setting the machine home the Z axis moved but the X and Y did not. The yellow 2222 and red EIS warnings are the only 2 I can not clear. Help!

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    Couple of things.

    This thread should be in the EDM forum.
    More people ( myself included ) with a U3 at our disposal visiting that patch of PM land.

    Second, though I've only had to call Makino a few-three times with learning-pains, whenever I did they have responded in less than 2 hours.
    Not only that, but the fella on the other end actually knew what he was talking about.
    If you are new to the machine, might as well try and test the support they provide.

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    I thought I posted that in the edm forum. And yes, makino has been pretty good. Turns out there was some bad hardware. Swapped out, new software and its cutting. EIS card was faulty from the factory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CleaverUsername1 View Post
    And yes, makino has been pretty good. Turns out there was some bad hardware. EIS card was faulty from the factory.

    Yeah, I've had a flaky/DOA conductivity sensor during install as well.
    Fed-ex - Red the part, swapped the next day.
    Shiit does happen, thankfully nothing since in the 5+ years.

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    Any advice on cutting cylindrical pieces? I'm taking the OD, diving it in half and using the corresponding E and D codes. However, it doesn't cut smooth. It sputters pretty bad. I did, however, cut a part today and held a tolerance of 50 millionths. I'm super excited about that. It was a relief in a gauge pin .750 along the length and .125 up from the center. Nailed it first try. I love this machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CleaverUsername1 View Post
    Any advice on cutting cylindrical pieces? I'm taking the OD, diving it in half and using the corresponding E and D codes. However, it doesn't cut smooth. It sputters pretty bad. I did, however, cut a part today and held a tolerance of 50 millionths. I'm super excited about that. It was a relief in a gauge pin .750 along the length and .125 up from the center. Nailed it first try. I love this machine.
    My "Group" is hovering very close to pulling the trigger on U3,

    Looks like an excellent platform.

    I'm not a Wire EDM expert but have been trying to dig deep on Wire EDM related stuff for several months.

    I have about 1000 pages on different cutting conditions and parameters for the U3 that we are trying to figure out cycle times for vs various materials , passes and program design + surface finishes and geometric straightness.

    BTW good to know that Makino IS responsive to any of the usual problems with a new install - nice to know.

    @CleaverUsername1 good to know that you got some good geometric results on your pin. Almost straight out of the box. Nice !

    Sounds like you are liking the machine.

    Do you have 4th axis or the H.E.A.T option ?

    Which and what U3 do you have ? (options wise ?) U3i or U3_B ? etc.

    Feel free to throw up any sketches or pics to help illustrate what you are getting to...

    Cheers,

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    U3i. The machine is amazing actually. It's a bit frustrating as I have no experience with EDM code so it's basically sink or swim. I'm able to cut stuff and put product out the door, however, I find myself editing post or reposting more than actually cutting. I'm decent at drawing stuff and selecting wire paths, but I don't know what to expect from my software. We're using bobcad v32 and it's okay, I can hit numbers and put parts out but the process of getting the NC how I want is gruelling. It also seems like the easier stuff is more challenging. I designed a wire path for cutting a stainless vise and the cleanup geometry was more difficult than cutting the actual profile. The hardest thing for me at the moment is cutting a pin. I work for a precision guage company and cutting a pin to a dimensional call out is driving me nuts! Wire breaks, shitty finishes, I cant figure it out. But a complex wire path cut I can run beautifully. One question I need answers to is how much editing do you guys do to your post once your cam software creates it? It feels like I waste a ton of time at this step. If you guys feel up to helping please feel free to email me. ZerocheckEDM at gmail. I'd appreciate advice or general conversation about wire EDM especially if you've got experience behind Makino U or bobcad.
    Thanks guys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CleaverUsername1 View Post
    U3i. The machine is amazing actually. It's a bit frustrating as I have no experience with EDM code so it's basically sink or swim. I'm able to cut stuff and put product out the door, however, I find myself editing post or reposting more than actually cutting. I'm decent at drawing stuff and selecting wire paths, but I don't know what to expect from my software. We're using bobcad v32 and it's okay, I can hit numbers and put parts out but the process of getting the NC how I want is gruelling. It also seems like the easier stuff is more challenging. I designed a wire path for cutting a stainless vise and the cleanup geometry was more difficult than cutting the actual profile. The hardest thing for me at the moment is cutting a pin. I work for a precision guage company and cutting a pin to a dimensional call out is driving me nuts! Wire breaks, shitty finishes, I cant figure it out. But a complex wire path cut I can run beautifully. One question I need answers to is how much editing do you guys do to your post once your cam software creates it? It feels like I waste a ton of time at this step. If you guys feel up to helping please feel free to email me. ZerocheckEDM at gmail. I'd appreciate advice or general conversation about wire EDM especially if you've got experience behind Makino U or bobcad.
    Thanks guys!
    I guess I'm having a bit of trouble visualizing what you mean exactly ?

    And the other thing I'm having difficulty understanding is your use of the machine ?

    That's because of my own intended uses / bubble (perhaps ?) .

    So for ME Wire EDM (will ) enable me to get to very difficult and tricky profiles that would be impossible to machine and also introduce the minimum of stress into the materials especially thin walled complex profiles.

    I understand the U3 and U3i can "digest" regular G code if you want (unlike others that have proprietary formats ) , BUT also there is a lot of on control "wizards" / doctors and canned cycles and special trouble shooting assistance on the control. I.e. iteratively trouble shoot and converge on a good set of parameters.

    I believe you can make simple cuts on the control ? (graphically ?)

    Can you post your basic wire and cutting and material conditions up there ?

    personally I'm not expecting amazeballs finishes in some cases even if I go to 5 passes in various materials AND the plan for critical / functional surfaces is to build special lapping and polishing jigs for our specific application and a specific subset of critical surfaces.

    If I had to make a cut on a precision gauge pin of some sort , I'd still be looking for an additional finishing strategy unless it was for more "dumb"/ quick in house work ? (probably someone will correct me on that).

    Can you list the wire diameter and approximate geometry or cut you are trying to make on the pin just for sh*ts and grins to see if I can actually pull up reasonable cutting parameters for the 1000 pages of data that I have (without violating proprietary info.).

    Also if you post a photo then other "Peeps" here that run the U3/U3i can tell you if that's "normal" or not ?

    What Ra and Rz are you going for / hoping for ?

    I did notice a couple of redundant / anomalous sets of parameters that did have me scratching my head a little bit to think Hmmmm did they mean that or is that a "bug" ? (just an analytical "stick out" .).

    I'm also interested in checking out what Esprit have to offer for Wire-EDM , I know its a little pricey / over specc'd perhaps but I'm kind of a fan of their development team.

    Honestly I probably won't engage at this point with emails etc. (maybe in the future), That's why "We" have a forum. :-)

    @CleaverUsername1 speaking of which , MAKINO have training for that machine ... No ? and they also have their own user portal ?

    With Makino they have a sort of emphasis on "technology transfer" so they call it but what they really mean is they hope that they provide the resources necessary to use the machinery to the best of it's intended capability ? (if needed ?).


    I was wondering if you were rotating a 4th axis too quickly ? But no 4th on your U3i.

    And the machine is brand new ? Bought as such ?

    Are you breaking the wire and using the automatic rethreading cycles ?

    Interesting that on the U3i there are a lot of features that are not 100% necessary (as the "other MTBs" have those as box checkers ) that do add some complexity, but seems on the U3i there are one or two additional features over the U3 that are supposed to be nice to have / enhanced quality). Out of the eight or so enhancements of the i over the U3_B two seem really worth while. [I know that's super vague .]. (will dig back through stuff.).

    Sorry you are having some hassles but I bet they can be straightened out, one way or another ?

    Is the software on the control fairly current is there a newer "patch" / version available ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Yeah, I've had a flaky/DOA conductivity sensor during install as well.
    Fed-ex - Red the part, swapped the next day.
    Shiit does happen, thankfully nothing since in the 5+ years.
    OTOH if you have a "flaky" conductivity sensor ^^^ , then that quick two millisecond reaction time to stop the wire short circuiting is for naught ?

    @CleaverUsername1 maybe there's another hardware issue ?

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    That's a lot of info to cover there lol... my company makes precision gauges for industry and some have dimensional call outs that I can hold with the Makino. Flats, certain lengths, relief cuts, special profiles, etc that I can already hold to within a tenth or 2. I also use it as a micro boring bar, going from .020 to .030 to whatever size I need, I just bored 2 rings this morning from a .02 hole to .0594 and nailed it. The rings get lapped by hand 3 tenths or so to a mirror finish on the ID. I can cut those types of profiles perfectly but if I ask it to run as a basic cutoff with one rough pass E 1066 D.00787 (or so, I have the E and D offsets on my desk) across a pin the machine does not cut correctly. It hisses, pops, breaks wire, does myriad clusterpucks. My biggest problem now is bobcad post processing for the Makino U3. It causes errors in the machine to the point that I find myself re writing posts more than actually cutting. @cameraman how much editing to your NC gcode do you do before you cut your pieces? Please let me know, I want to collaborate with as many EDM makino owners as I can si we can all benefit from shared knowledge and experience! Feel free to email me ZerocheckEDM at gmail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    OTOH if you have a "flaky" conductivity sensor ^^^ , then that quick two millisecond reaction time to stop the wire short circuiting is for naught ?
    That would be the conductivity sensor for the clean, flush water.
    It has nothing to do with the actual cutting, rather measures the conductivity of the water to keep it within a set limit.
    If it fails, you get either no water sent to the DI resin, or never switch off the DI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    That would be the conductivity sensor for the clean, flush water.
    It has nothing to do with the actual cutting, rather measures the conductivity of the water to keep it within a set limit.
    If it fails, you get either no water sent to the DI resin, or never switch off the DI.
    Gotcha ,

    I don't have a schematic for the U3 / U 3i

    So what's the system that determines the in cut electrical load vs resistance ?

    I understand the U3 has some fuzzy logic for retracting the wire at a 3 milli-second rate / feed the wire at the correct rate towards the material while its being eroded / ablated ? There's some kind of feed back loop for that where the machine kind of "feels" it's way along in closed loop controlled by other parameters.


    But seems what CleverUsername1 is experiencing outside of what the machine can compensate.

    I'll need to set aside some time to get clear picture on the U3/U6 and U3i/U6i ...

    I don't have the machine but it's one we're definitely wanting to buy.

    Sorry I'm "Nubing" on this but hopefully not for long.

    Ta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CleaverUsername1 View Post
    That's a lot of info to cover there lol... my company makes precision gauges for industry and some have dimensional call outs that I can hold with the Makino. Flats, certain lengths, relief cuts, special profiles, etc that I can already hold to within a tenth or 2. I also use it as a micro boring bar, going from .020 to .030 to whatever size I need, I just bored 2 rings this morning from a .02 hole to .0594 and nailed it. The rings get lapped by hand 3 tenths or so to a mirror finish on the ID. I can cut those types of profiles perfectly but if I ask it to run as a basic cutoff with one rough pass E 1066 D.00787 (or so, I have the E and D offsets on my desk) across a pin the machine does not cut correctly. It hisses, pops, breaks wire, does myriad clusterpucks. My biggest problem now is bobcad post processing for the Makino U3. It causes errors in the machine to the point that I find myself re writing posts more than actually cutting. @cameraman how much editing to your NC gcode do you do before you cut your pieces? Please let me know, I want to collaborate with as many EDM makino owners as I can si we can all benefit from shared knowledge and experience! Feel free to email me ZerocheckEDM at gmail.
    OK I kinda get where you are coming from on this now, thanks for the greater detail.

    OK so coming at this as an Engineer that was a materials scientists and migrated to CAD/CAM and VR software development + machining, electronics etc. + design engineering.

    Having looked at the 1000+ pages of all the permutations for different cuts (rough 1st pass, second, third... in some cases up to seven with associated Ra(s) and Rz(s), for different wires, different part thicknesses/ heights and different materials... ) That you are dealing with a "Matrix" with somewhere between 7 and 14 simultaneous variables all acting on each-other (simultaneously) with different rule sets for various in-cut real time conditions.

    However these parameters and setting are derived from a set of core equations (electrically) but also empirically from test cut data. + whatever algorithms that are used to govern the various cutting strategies "Real time".

    To my way of thinking "Intuitively" it would not be easy to write a comprehensive post for a pretty much any Wire EDM that has a lot of advanced internal cutting strategies that are not immediately obvious. I.e. not dialed back to simple/ dumb / very slow and conservative settings for very generic cutting conditions of various materials.

    I would say in the case of BobCad unless you reach out to Makino and vice versa to obtain / grab their full table of parameters which is about 1000 pages long (and deeper key information), and start to reverse engineer or back-map effectively some of the core equations + get some idea of the fuzzy logic that drives the machine or get specific development information from Makino themselves (like a development kit), then I could imagine things could be a bit hit or miss for a very generic post. If someone at BobCad doesn't have a U3 in front of them , then I would imagine writing a post for the U3 would be challenging / hit or miss unless Makino provided a good development kit for the machine. I.e. sounds like some of what you are experiencing @CleverUserName1. Their post would have to be "verified" by them with a machine / U3. That's a sh*t load/shed load ? of testing that needs to be carried out (even with core equations and algorithms) / and or a development library.

    Maybe Monday or Tuesday I'll be able to dig through some of the data I have to see if there are inconsistencies or errors.

    @CleaverUsername1 Sounds like you are pushing the machine to it's limits in a good way... I'd never have thought of using the machine that way... I'm mainly after a few straight cuts between one and two micron-ish over 30 mm and overall part / form tolerances of roughly 5 micron / two tenths or wider. For taller parts we can fiddle stuff and the design of the components we need have certain adjustments and are custom fitted to each other so high tolerances and close fits can be achieved but NOT for super high tolerance interchangeable parts. <<<---- The exact opposite of your application @CleverUserName1 where you literally make high tolerance interchangeable parts with full traceability.

    I do believe there is a visual way to represent these seemingly disparate "Multidimensional" parameters for the Raw cutting conditions and settings and modes, in a simplified visual form.

    The thing that's interesting about the U3 / U3i ARE the development possibilities as a second CAD/CAM / PC driven / linked screen is possible as an option, that's probably why... In respect of what you are having "Plug and play" issues with. For me I see the opportunity , for others that may be a pain in the arse/ ass and not what they wanted to sign up for.

    I have heard the 'Notion" of the complex stuff is "easier" and the simple stuff is more time consuming / fiddly on the U3 ? But haven't been able to pull sufficient focus yet as to why and how.

    Later

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

    @CleverUserName1 , I'm treading carefully here as I could see there could be "anti-competitive" law suits etc. / legal ramifications if such deeper development information was offered to one CAM development company and not another. ~ That's my IP / legal hat on there. Historically there have been some hideous law suits along similar lines.

    Best to contact Makino directly.

    Also what @SeymourDumore hints / mentions with flushing considerations for incredibly tiny "apertures/ holes and features " yet very tall ???

    Unless I have driven the U3 / U3i for at least 18 months I'm probably not going to be much help for the physical limits of the machine and the physics of surface tension vs. electrostatics and surface fluid dynamics / micro turbulence etc. That's very difficult to model and requires a lot of "Suck it" and "see" hands on work to map out the limits of extreme or unusual cutting conditions and geometry. Sort of reciprocity failure that might require very different settings and cutting conditions to execute properly.

    On the other hand simple stuff should be simple ? Maybe there's a some hidden bugs ? (shrugging shoulders) - not easy to sort out without being on the shop floor hacking out code right next to the U3i etc. for about 18 months ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post

    So what's the system that determines the in cut electrical load vs resistance ?

    I understand the U3 has some fuzzy logic for retracting the wire at a 3 milli-second rate / feed the wire at the correct rate towards the material while its being eroded / ablated ? There's some kind of feed back loop for that where the machine kind of "feels" it's way along in closed loop controlled by other parameters.



    Sorry I'm "Nubing" on this but hopefully not for long.

    Ta.

    One of the precious few publications that I read through is the EDM Today magazine, but this one I always read cover-to-cover.

    If you have an hour or so, take a look at this archived article from 2015: 2015_Winter_Feature_EDM_Today

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    One of the precious few publications that I read through is the EDM Today magazine, but this one I always read cover-to-cover.

    If you have an hour or so, take a look at this archived article from 2015: 2015_Winter_Feature_EDM_Today
    @SeymourDumore Thanks so much ! I really appreciate it.

    Will go through all that.

    In my lunch break I'm thinking Op's "Pin" vs. machine ?

    I.e. composition and methods that his pin was made by ~ Brain-farting about high silicate precipitated slag planes and high silicate phases and inclusions i.e. The outside of a material might be conductive and the core of material may be simple phases (fairly homogeneous and conductive) , but ferrous alloys that have been mechanically worked close to the surface may have alternating different layers / phases close to the surface that may have very different electrical properties. And if you cut tangentially like a flat or flat taper then maybe one is cutting through layers that are very different from the core material (compositionally) and may not actually be that conductive especially if it's a silicate rich "wrought" slag plane.

    Might fit Ops snap crackle pop sh*t show kind of thing. ~ Composition of materials just sub surface by a few microns/ tenths (at least worth ruling out first).

    I thought centerless grinders was the go to for precision pins and for various flats a surface grinder/ form grinder would be my "Goto" , shrugging shoulders.

    So I'm just gonna take a gander at various "pins" and try to rule out any compositional differences.

    Then dig through the tables and cited above articles. EDM Today looks like a "Must read".

    I'm such a "Nube" I couldn't tell you if a forged-pin is one of the things you can't take a tangential cut on a wire EDM lol.

    + electrical contact for smaller articles.

    Ta V . much (Again).

    [I have my home work :-) ].

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    One of the precious few publications that I read through is the EDM Today magazine, but this one I always read cover-to-cover.

    If you have an hour or so, take a look at this archived article from 2015: 2015_Winter_Feature_EDM_Today
    That was a great read , very interesting especially the history as well... Russian points failing on a T32 tanks etc. giving rise to the First EDMs lol. Pretty cool.

    Authored by the esteemed E. Bud Guitrau ~ recognize the name from threads here and being the "Goto guy" for everything fundamental with all the types of EDM.

    However I so see some divergence between what he sets out and how the tables for linear removal rates on the Makino U3/ U3i / U6 / U6i etc. work out. Roughing versus 3rd to 5th passes .

    I'm sure at some point all will become clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CleaverUsername1 View Post
    That's a lot of info to cover there lol... my company makes precision gauges for industry and some have dimensional call outs that I can hold with the Makino. Flats, certain lengths, relief cuts, special profiles, etc that I can already hold to within a tenth or 2. I also use it as a micro boring bar, going from .020 to .030 to whatever size I need, I just bored 2 rings this morning from a .02 hole to .0594 and nailed it. The rings get lapped by hand 3 tenths or so to a mirror finish on the ID. I can cut those types of profiles perfectly but if I ask it to run as a basic cutoff with one rough pass E 1066 D.00787 (or so, I have the E and D offsets on my desk) across a pin the machine does not cut correctly. It hisses, pops, breaks wire, does myriad clusterpucks. My biggest problem now is bobcad post processing for the Makino U3. It causes errors in the machine to the point that I find myself re writing posts more than actually cutting. @cameraman how much editing to your NC gcode do you do before you cut your pieces? Please let me know, I want to collaborate with as many EDM makino owners as I can si we can all benefit from shared knowledge and experience! Feel free to email me ZerocheckEDM at gmail.
    Take 2.

    I agree with @SeymourDumore you should definitely repost this on the general wire EDM part of the forum to get more eyeballs on this.

    I am assuming your gauge pin is not of the type that has the black oxide coating ?

    I searched through the Inch tables that I have for E1066 on a one inch thick steel piece and wire thickness of 0.008 (different from actual ) D values... Your guage pins could be 2" "thick" tall / long ?

    + double checked on corresponding metric tables (seems there a different "boxes" filled and unfilled there ? )


    So I can only find E1066 as part of a multi pass strategy for steel using 0.008" wire for example on 1" thick piece.

    First Pass,

    (Both Away Precision),

    E1066,

    Rem.R. (in/min) : 0.1142" ~ 0.1220"

    ServoLamp : 2-4

    SparkLamp : 12

    SF1 micro-inch Ra* 95-105

    Second Pass,

    Uses E1565,

    Rem.R. (in/min) : 0.2165" ~ 0.2953 "

    ServoLamp : 7~9

    SparkLamp : 12

    SF1 (micro-inch Ra) 50-80

    etc.


    @CleverUSerName1 ; Clearly there are no tables for " It hisses, pops, breaks wire, does myriad clusterpucks"


    but having read what Seymourdumore's cited article EDM 101 seems if flushing of the dielectric is not sufficient or if the wire speed being run (through) is too slow then you can have some of what you describe. I.e. longer "Off cycle" ratio might be needed to allow the dielectric fluid more time to "clear" properly to do its thing, rather than a long "on cycle" - not sure how the U3 saves on the amount of wire it uses ? . Also like what the article says about the 20 % rule and degradation / erosion of the wire itself + mild taper - in other words can the tension of the wire be reduced to more conservative limits. Also minor thought (assumes your filtration system is working well ) I.e. your dielectric fluid is not becoming more conductive ... [Other random brain farts as it's hard to make such guesses and not be on someone else's shop floor.].

    Maybe a slower multipass strategy rather than a fast cut off (no core ) type cut ?

    I'm guessing that programming directly on the control is not an option for you @CleverUSername1 ? For simple cuts it all has to be in the office and CAD/CAM style and with BobCad ? There seems to be a pretty comprehensive interface on the actual machine for simple cuts ? Maybe the brochure paints a rather optimistic picture :-)

    The machine does look very good.




    __________________________________________________ _


    * For me I usually fudge Rz by multiplying Ra by roughly factor 5 to 7.


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