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  1. #761
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    I often wonder how much the protection of IP is actually worth because to save money the companies have delivered the IP into the hands of the Chinese. It would seem given the conduct of China that IP capture would seem inevitable really. Who is to blame for that? It would be the ones who turned over the items to be made. With all the things made for us that add up to billions of dollars probably contributed to wages in the US stagnating I would think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I often wonder how much the protection of IP is actually worth because to save money the companies have delivered the IP into the hands of the Chinese. It would seem given the conduct of China that IP capture would seem inevitable really. Who is to blame for that? It would be the ones who turned over the items to be made. With all the things made for us that add up to billions of dollars probably contributed to wages in the US stagnating I would think.
    while there may be cases where this is true, I cant think of many.

    For real things, that are, you know, "manufactured", there is usually a lot more to it than IP.

    Take, for example, Apple- supposedly worth a trillion dollars. What, exactly have they lost to '"IP capture"?
    I am typing this on an apple laptop. And they make parts for it, and assemble it, in China to some degree. And yet, the chinese knockoffs of Apple are not even in the same league. They are known for being cheap. Beyond that, they arent known for much. Sure, people buy cheap chinese computers- but it hasnt seemed to have affected Apple all that much.

    Or, say, Caterpillar- they have over 20 factories in China. Somehow, my neighborhood (and I live in the country- a LOT of my neighbors own excavators) hasnt net been overrun by Rong Fu brand excavators. Some of my neighbors do run Yanmars, or Hitachis, which may even be assembled in China- but the IP of Cat, or Yanmar, seem to be still pretty firmly in the original corporate hands, and, again, nobody is running cheap generic chinese machines where I live.

    Same thing with tractors. I have neighbors with literally 2 million dollars worth of tractors. Mostly Deeres, some Cats. The only significant inroads cheap knockoff tractors have made around here are the little Indian made garden tractors, and I dont believe we lose much IP to India.

    Power tools- Bosch, Makita, and other power tool companies have factories in China- and still sell 2 levels of tools- Virtually all my Bosch tools are still made in Germany or Switzerland, and every pro I know skips no-name chinese power tools. I did recently buy a pair of Bosch cordless drills that were made in Malaysia- which we dont have tariffs against. So, again, foreign companies build factories in China, and, somehow, dont lose everything, and, in many cases, GAIN market share.

    Would I prefer to buy tools made in America?
    Sure- I have bought a lot of made in Milwaukee Milwaukees, as well as some made in the US Makitas, and I have a few made in USA smaller Honda motorized tools too.

    But I fail to see a lot of american companies being destroyed by the Chinese stealing everything from them- the high quality, high priced stuff continues to be made and sold under american brand names, and while chinese brands are getting better, in most categories they still sell pretty much on one thing- Low Price.

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  4. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    while there may be cases where this is true, I cant think of many.

    For real things, that are, you know, "manufactured", there is usually a lot more to it than IP.

    Take, for example, Apple- supposedly worth a trillion dollars. What, exactly have they lost to '"IP capture"?
    I am typing this on an apple laptop. And they make parts for it, and assemble it, in China to some degree. And yet, the chinese knockoffs of Apple are not even in the same league. They are known for being cheap. Beyond that, they arent known for much. Sure, people buy cheap chinese computers- but it hasnt seemed to have affected Apple all that much.

    Or, say, Caterpillar- they have over 20 factories in China. Somehow, my neighborhood (and I live in the country- a LOT of my neighbors own excavators) hasnt net been overrun by Rong Fu brand excavators. Some of my neighbors do run Yanmars, or Hitachis, which may even be assembled in China- but the IP of Cat, or Yanmar, seem to be still pretty firmly in the original corporate hands, and, again, nobody is running cheap generic chinese machines where I live.

    Same thing with tractors. I have neighbors with literally 2 million dollars worth of tractors. Mostly Deeres, some Cats. The only significant inroads cheap knockoff tractors have made around here are the little Indian made garden tractors, and I dont believe we lose much IP to India.

    Power tools- Bosch, Makita, and other power tool companies have factories in China- and still sell 2 levels of tools- Virtually all my Bosch tools are still made in Germany or Switzerland, and every pro I know skips no-name chinese power tools. I did recently buy a pair of Bosch cordless drills that were made in Malaysia- which we dont have tariffs against. So, again, foreign companies build factories in China, and, somehow, dont lose everything, and, in many cases, GAIN market share.

    Would I prefer to buy tools made in America?
    Sure- I have bought a lot of made in Milwaukee Milwaukees, as well as some made in the US Makitas, and I have a few made in USA smaller Honda motorized tools too.

    But I fail to see a lot of american companies being destroyed by the Chinese stealing everything from them- the high quality, high priced stuff continues to be made and sold under american brand names, and while chinese brands are getting better, in most categories they still sell pretty much on one thing- Low Price.
    There is a problem with counterfeit branded products.
    But the real killer is the ip being sold outside the USA.

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  6. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Sure, people buy cheap chinese computers- but it hasnt seemed to have affected Apple all that much.

    .
    Ries

    Apple Inc. might not be a very good example in this case, due to their business model.

    The very same model - keeping everything in house and absolutely closed to the outside world - which almost made them non-existent in the late nineties/early 2K,
    is exactly what makes them unique, viable and very much relevant today.

    I'm reasonably certain that IBM, the former Compaq, original Dell, HP, Intel, perhaps even Gateway could reverse engineer any and all of Apple's products, make a comparable
    product ( perhaps even better ) and sell them....
    Except...
    They will not be Apple, and will not have access to what makes Apple Apple. ( hope that come out understandable )

    In a previous life, 'till the late nineties, I've use Micronics motherboards exclusively to build hundreds of PC-s for sale. From what I remember they all were made in the USA.
    Then they've closed up shop.
    Then, for a short sidetrack I've used Asus and Gigabit MB-s, only to be gravely disappointed just about every which way I can.
    Then switched to genuine Intel motherboards. Some made in the US, many of other country of origin, but they all were US designs, and all were flawless ( for the most part )
    Then Intel closed up shop on their MB business.

    I am no longer in that line other than building a couple machines here and there for friends and family each year. If they want/need a home system, I use Intel' NUC,
    otherwise I just decline to build as I do not trust most of the stuff out there.

    What I'm trying to say is that while Apple was able to maintain their existence, it was mostly due to the completely closed architecture. ( which of course was a Jobs idea )
    Micronics, Intel, Cordata, Compaq and many many more OTOH, they were every bit as good quality as Apple, but because their IP was not in any way tied rigidly to a single source,
    they were eventually copied in mass, manufactured ( regardless of quality ), marketed, sold for far less and accepted by the public.
    All those are no longer in business ( or in THAT line of business ), but in my view they are gone for a large part due to IP theft ( of course typical corporate garbage also has a major hand in that as well )


    All I'm trying to say is that IP theft is a real concern in some fields.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    I've got dozens of power tools, some of them near new, and they run just fine.
    No they don't. Those stupid fuckking imbecile buttons you have to push and hold before you can make the blade go are garbage. Pure unmitigated get-in-the-way annoying garbage. Get this, tool makers - I don't pull the trigger unless I want the blade to go. In many positions it makes a simple operation into a two-handed contortion.

    The gooddam washing machine drove me crazy. It finishes, then sits there for two minutes before you can open the door.

    On topic, door locks on machine tools are for imbeciles. For people who set up the machine they are a giant annoyance.

    The US is full of this shit. You should know, living in California, where there are so many cancer warnings that companies just put them on everything now so they become just another meaningless annoyance and more landfill.

    Just a month ago I had to scrape off the "Not for Sale in California" stickers on a junky trouble light. Ooooh, someone might burn themselves ! Let's make them buy the $25 one instead of this cheap $3 piece of crap ! Well, I needed a cheap $3 piece of crap, not a safe-in-a-coal-mine lamp.

    It is endless. I am happy you like living in a gulag but I don't. But you know, freedom actually means something to me. Not the freedom to do what I'm told, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by seymore dumore
    All I'm trying to say is that IP theft is a real concern in some fields.
    Seymore - there is no such thing as IP theft. I have no idea where people got this fantasy but you can't own ideas. Guilds understood this in the Middle Ages and necromancers, witches and sorcerors hundreds of years earlier. If it is secret knowledge, keep it secret. You can't hand it over then cry like a baby when other people use it.

    Knowledge is power. If you want to keep it for yourself, keep your fat trap shut.

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    Mr Goldstein has posted the best evisceration of the Nanny State culture I've read in some time. And he's right about IP: the only way to keep it secret is to hold it closely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    The gooddam washing machine drove me crazy. It finishes, then sits there for two minutes before you can open the door.
    You watch your washing machine and two minutes is important? Buy a TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Mr Goldstein has posted the best evisceration of the Nanny State culture I've read in some time. And he's right about IP: the only way to keep it secret is to hold it closely.

    EG has a way with words for sure. As regards IP and comments on if there is any value in patents the viewpoint was be careful,a patent is a waste of time as money should be made not wasting time worrying. Ip boils down to responsibility and actually protecting a trade secret. It can not be protected very well if we give it away. That is why in a earlier post I wondered if Americans who sent their products to China to be made must have considered IP to be part of the cost of doing business because IP is protected only by the honor system or I could say self regulation.

    The US has made a lot of things the world wants to buy and we wish to have these Made in China. It has been a boom canabalizing our manufacture of all these things. Now we can maybe build back this capacity again and then perhaps do the same thing again? No that would be too obvious yet there certainly must be some smart people who will discover the next big thing. Let’s be glad they did not decide to start WW3.

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    And here is what starting a trade war does...
    Our trading partners end up jumping ship.
    MAGA
    https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/a...ween-u-s-china

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    EG has a way with words for sure.
    As does Monarchist. Thermite and SeaMoss. Think about it and compare writing styles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    People are dying or put in the equivalent of moral and ethical straightjackets in many dictatorships.
    Try to disband the US military. The one that straddles the world, murdering at will, dancing to the tune of your oligarchs. What did you do about Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chile, Africa, and a hundred other places where the CIA and your drones murder whomever they want ?

    Are you certain you want to bring up morals and ethics ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Try to disband the US military. The one that straddles the world, murdering at will, dancing to the tune of your oligarchs. What did you do about Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chile, Africa, and a hundred other places where the CIA and your drones murder whomever they want ?

    Are you certain you want to bring up morals and ethics ?
    That does become a problem in discussion for sure bringing in Morals and ethics. If we look at our military the greatest support of action would be clear cut things like 9/11 and Pearl Harbor because they are clear. When war is happening under those conditions they more reflect the Morals and Ethics of Americans. Where we get involved under different circumstances basically without true justification then as you say the interests of action become those of a minority. This is when the use of power becomes hijacked and things like Abu Garab happen something like that is a breakdown of military discipline and guiding principles. It may even be labeled as a breakdown in good command.

    It would be great if we become uninvolved and give it a rest all this has been going on too long. Afghanistan appears to be saveable and or/and corrupt and divided. Like Russia we should cut our involvement and get out and it is hard to do. If the Service was not all voluntary this would be much more ungent yet even so we should do what is right and do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    That does become a problem in discussion for sure bringing in Morals and ethics. If we look at our military the greatest support of action would be clear cut things like 9/11 and Pearl Harbor because they are clear. When war is happening under those conditions they more reflect the Morals and Ethics of Americans. Where we get involved under different circumstances basically without true justification then as you say the interests of action become those of a minority. This is when the use of power becomes hijacked and things like Abu Garab happen something like that is a breakdown of military discipline and guiding principles. It may even be labeled as a breakdown in good command.

    It would be great if we become uninvolved and give it a rest all this has been going on too long. Afghanistan appears to be saveable and or/and corrupt and divided. Like Russia we should cut our involvement and get out and it is hard to do. If the Service was not all voluntary this would be much more ungent yet even so we should do what is right and do it.
    The us military industrial complex was only a few trillion dollar drag with regards to 9/11.
    It did nothing to prevent it, and it’s use only served to build more hatred towards the us.

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    I think Emmy must buy his tools at Harbor Freight or something. Also, I am pretty sure he no longer has a shop, or actually much in the way of tools. My herd of hand power tools, not counting air powered ones, is probably close to 100. I have maybe 2 that require pushing a button down to hold the trigger on. If you buy industrial quality tools from Milwaukee, Bosch, Metabo, or even Makita, which most of mine are, they dont have that feature. And that includes the ones I bought last month, and the one that got delivered today.
    If you actually work for a living, you quickly learn where to buy real tools that work.
    Plenty available.

    I do agree with him that the concept of "owning" ideas is silly, and it only works if you own the police and the courts, like Disney and Bill Gates do. And, even then, only when a relatively large business is trying to make money on "your" idea.

    I have had multiples of "my" ideas knocked off by a wide range of people, including some from Pakistan, Mexico, and various other places, including the good old USA. Not being willing to spend a half million dollars on lawyers to protect a few tens of thousands, I shrug and move on. My mind miraculously produces new ideas all the time.


    I am not convinced that IBM has fallen from grace because the Chinese copied their IP and sold the exact same thing cheaper- they did a lot of the damage to themselves due to their superior attitude, in my opinion.
    Kinda like Kodak, which invented the digital camera, and didnt develop it, because they believed the magic goose of chemical developing of plastic film would last for millenia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    The us military industrial complex was only a few trillion dollar drag with regards to 9/11.
    It did nothing to prevent it, and it’s use only served to build more hatred towards the us.
    Yes I see the drag. Plus I admit the spending is a lot and should be cut where possible. Realistically looking at threats it is a complex which will always demand more and more investment. It does seem like we do not advance much in technology unless we have some kind of enemy or contest facing us.

    It is really scary as you often have pointed out the influence and interests of Multinational Corporations and Oligarchs.

    As far as concerns about military spending which effects trade a lot because money goes not to improve trade but to fund conflict. I have been looking at the history of the money spent of the F35 , that is a huge investment and it is a good point that they just flew right past further development of the F22. Hope it is not money down the drain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    As far as concerns about military spending which effects trade a lot because money goes not to improve trade but to fund conflict. I have been looking at the history of the money spent of the F35 , that is a huge investment and it is a good point that they just flew right past further development of the F22. Hope it is not money down the drain.
    The reason for the US military being the size it is, and continually growing, is supposedly for defense. Much less could do that.

    Who's going to attack China or Russia and their military costs added together only cost a fraction of what the USAs cost?


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