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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by standardparts View Post
    Was living in the Four Corners Area (off reservation) at the time and the Hantavirus was a very big deal especially since it impacted Navajo way of life which was living off the land via gathering of food.

    It was pointed out to me by locals that in addition to the pine nuts there was a certain species of mushroom (fungi?) that was found in the piñon groves that could threaten gatherers of that item.

    It's possible, at the time (1996?), that the vast oil and gas operations in the San Juan Basin could have been impacted.

    Also, and just my opinion, there was a distrust of the Gov't by many in the area.

    It is indeed impressive how many resources were applied to solve the mystery and DEFINE THE SOURCE at the time.

    I guess there are different parameters in play regarding defining the true source of Covid 25 years later.
    The intent of the investigation was to stop the virus. This directly was a good thing for the Navaho and there were few complaints about that. Sure they distrust government for good reason we all know the problems with how it falls short .

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    “ And basically pointless. What real difference does it make if this virus came from a market in Wuhan or a convenience store in Huangshi ? Or whether Buford P Mildegas in Ft Riley was the first victim of the American Flu ? Or which person first brought AIDS out of Africa, to Haiti, to New York, to San Francisco ?”

    Exactly in effect now it is pointless as nothing will come from it. The whole thing could likely just be the fact that the virus was unintentionally released and spread steadily for some time until it was noticed and verified as a problem from the point of its likely source-Wuhan.

    Most likely for some extended period of time the virus has been steadily surviving and at times would slow and speed up hiding among other viruses which ebb and flow in transmission rates. It hides and has a persistent life cycle. It spread to the world on a small level months before the outbreak became noticeable in China.

    It could be the virus is quite resilient and is stubbornly persistent. Not impossible to stop yet progressive and deadly as viruses go. It can hide with other viruses which are not so resilient.

    If anything we owe the Chinese for noticing it and taking action there as we were made aware of the pandemic. We could have found out the hard way discussing a mystery illness after it effectively ravaged the elderly.

    I can believe a couple of lab persons could have contracted it and unintentionally spread it. I can also imagine baboon government also then releasing it as a complete cover to destabilize the world and to test it. That last part why would I believe such a thing since it is horrible?

    The reason is that the nature of Marxism and full blown communism is revolutionizing social order and usurping it through violent revolution they are cold blooded killers in their own right and always will be true believers. They are still a very influential power. On the rocks half dead from near drowning yet —-still alive.
    You hit some good points there;
    1)Squabbling about blame is pointless.
    2)China did alert the world and gave the world the genetic code for the virus. Basis for our effective vaccines. Also I heard our then blind squirrel say the Chinese blind squirrel had told him that the means of spread was air born. Not sure why we spent so much time cleaning surfaces with hazardous chemicals. Seems like that would have caused lung irritation making spreading the virus easier.
    3) Should they have been studying horseshoe bat viruses? You bet 2 of them in recent memory had showed potential of killing 16% of the people that got it. This one has wings and spreads many times faster but kills a smaller percentage.

    In talking to oldsters around here there have been several plane crashes in this neighborhood. A fire department could destroy evidence in putting a fire out. If that happens you are doomed to see it happen again. So the Chinese took the market down without making a video or some kind of map with notations of which animals were where and who got the virus and where was he when he got it. They put out the fire recklessly and did not preserve enough evidence. That happens sometimes. Chinese blind squirrels find some nuts as well as rabbit and deer droppings like any other blind squirrel.

    I have heard that alarm was expressed by American researchers seeing people without PPE collect samples from horseshoe bat lairs (caves maybe?). Entire possible untrained collectors of samples brought the virus into the lab and infected researchers outside of the restricted areas. Or maybe the collectors bought some food animals from the market and started the outbreak there before traveling back home? Not knowing is a problem so addressing all potential ways of starting this needs to be addressed instead of something more focused. The alarm expressed about the collectors of samples is a matter of record as emails and letters were sent on that subject.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    Or maybe the collectors bought some food animals from the market and started the outbreak there before traveling back home?
    People do not eat bats, okay ? People in Palau eat bats, not China. They also eat their dead relatives, but that's a different problem.

    I have been to literally dozens of live-animal markets and never seen one bat. I have been to hundreds of restaurants and never seen bat on the menu. I have eaten everything from live baby octopus to crunchy whole barbecued baby frogs to live shrimps to live stuffed fish still flapping their gills, sheep balls, horse dick, weird parts of the insides of a pig or owl or other strange wild animals, never once been offered bat, or even had anyone mention it.

    They don't have bats in the animal markets and people don't eat bats.

    Snake is good tho, I bet we could sell rattlesnakes Have to be live though. Handling might be a bit of a problem ...

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    You hit some good points there;
    1)Squabbling about blame is pointless.
    2)China did alert the world and gave the world the genetic code for the virus. Basis for our effective vaccines. Also I heard our then blind squirrel say the Chinese blind squirrel had told him that the means of spread was air born. Not sure why we spent so much time cleaning surfaces with hazardous chemicals. Seems like that would have caused lung irritation making spreading the virus easier.
    3) Should they have been studying horseshoe bat viruses? You bet 2 of them in recent memory had showed potential of killing 16% of the people that got it. This one has wings and spreads many times faster but kills a smaller percentage.

    In talking to oldsters around here there have been several plane crashes in this neighborhood. A fire department could destroy evidence in putting a fire out. If that happens you are doomed to see it happen again. So the Chinese took the market down without making a video or some kind of map with notations of which animals were where and who got the virus and where was he when he got it. They put out the fire recklessly and did not preserve enough evidence. That happens sometimes. Chinese blind squirrels find some nuts as well as rabbit and deer droppings like any other blind squirrel.

    I have heard that alarm was expressed by American researchers seeing people without PPE collect samples from horseshoe bat lairs (caves maybe?). Entire possible untrained collectors of samples brought the virus into the lab and infected researchers outside of the restricted areas. Or maybe the collectors bought some food animals from the market and started the outbreak there before traveling back home? Not knowing is a problem so addressing all potential ways of starting this needs to be addressed instead of something more focused. The alarm expressed about the collectors of samples is a matter of record as emails and letters were sent on that subject.
    Fred my Uncle was a Missionary his entire adult life. In the Pacific close to South East of the Philippines. There they constantly eat bat boiled in its own blood a delicacy. My uncle related eating it the first time a chief invited him to his hut for dinner. They did not eat it every day either. There is not enough of them to amount to enough food to replace food shortages of meat in China. Bat is pretty much standard fare for centuries.

    In China disease decimated the pigs big time there so there was a shortage. In no way are they starving anymore . This upset even the most avid anti Communists that the Chinese people lived under these incompetent Communists and starved big time plus the Communists focused on killing off even these same people to make way for their new world.

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    Yeah, I have seen a National Geographic photo of a kid eating a bat. Bush meat in Africa has been the source of repeated Ebola outbreaks and this horseshoe bat seems to be an especially bad actor. The fact that a few people have done it till recently without seeming bad results does not mean it is a good idea. Maybe small clusters of people have had it and because of repeated exposure are now immune. With global travel 99% of the worlds population have not been exposed to these things and are now vulnerable.
    China is now dealing with an outbreak of the Delta variant in one province. The government may need to put a hold on vax exports for a while as the lock down that has worked so well for them may not be as effective with this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    The government may need to put a hold on vax exports for a while as the lock down that has worked so well for them may not be as effective with this one.
    ? Vaccines have no relation to quarantines and contact tracing. When you actually go to kill it rather than "slow the spread" the results are different. Two weeks of isolation stops the virus in its tracks, has nothing to do with vaccines.

    A quarantine is totally effective. With no new hosts, the virus dies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    People do not eat bats, okay ? People in Palau eat bats, not China. They also eat their dead relatives, but that's a different problem.

    I have been to literally dozens of live-animal markets and never seen one bat. I have been to hundreds of restaurants and never seen bat on the menu. I have eaten everything from live baby octopus to crunchy whole barbecued baby frogs to live shrimps to live stuffed fish still flapping their gills, sheep balls, horse dick, weird parts of the insides of a pig or owl or other strange wild animals, never once been offered bat, or even had anyone mention it.

    They don't have bats in the animal markets and people don't eat bats.

    Snake is good tho, I bet we could sell rattlesnakes Have to be live though. Handling might be a bit of a problem ...
    Do not want to start an argument here but it seems like I saw a short video clip of the Wuhan market when this thing first started and references to horse shoe bats being among the wild animals being sold. That was over a year ago. Seems like I heard a reference to a trial where they were being raised experimentally for food source. Again a long time ago.

    Rattlesnakes not for me. Many years ago we did kill a few armadillos and ate them. In case anyone wants to know the white meat tastes like chicken and the dark meat like pork. They do eat poisonous insects so you have to be careful about spilling the stomach contents when cleaning them. They can carry the virus associated with leprosy so I just dispose of them now when I kill them. No they are not native here. The crossed the Rio Grande in 1836. Sneaky suspicion that Santa Ana did it as revenge.

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  9. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    Yeah, I have seen a National Geographic photo of a kid eating a bat. Bush meat in Africa has been the source of repeated Ebola outbreaks and this horseshoe bat seems to be an especially bad actor. The fact that a few people have done it till recently without seeming bad results does not mean it is a good idea. Maybe small clusters of people have had it and because of repeated exposure are now immune. With global travel 99% of the worlds population have not been exposed to these things and are now vulnerable.
    China is now dealing with an outbreak of the Delta variant in one province. The government may need to put a hold on vax exports for a while as the lock down that has worked so well for them may not be as effective with this one.
    I believe the problem is based on the practices of food preparation , storage, and cooking. Boiling in blood seems possibly dangerous in places where food freshness is a challenge. I suppose the markets in general being open air have very little real oversight. Even here there are problems that will cause harm to people if ignored or neglected. Consider the E. coli poisoning surrounding Jack in the box back several years. All practices in food prep addressed the issue which was good. It slipped by.

    I cooked a rattlesnake once a big one and the meat was terrible probably too big a snake Eastern Diamondback a Texas size snake who lives in Florida and a lot here in the South East US. Add that to alligators and Texans feel right at home visiting here.

    China as regards the Herculean genius of stopping the virus in its tracks there is very minimal transparency in the whole tracking of exactly where it jumped. I suspect they know and that they did not get all of it at all. I do not think either the US or China are as open as we both project ourselves to be.

  10. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    I believe the problem is based on the practices of food preparation , storage, and cooking. ....
    This is patently incorrect. The virus did not jump the species barrier because of bad food prep. On the plus side, the ACA has yet again been upheld by the USSC (7-2!) so the food prep problems that do cause illness in the US can be more easily treated without bankrupting the patient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    This is patently incorrect. The virus did not jump the species barrier because of bad food prep. On the plus side, the ACA has yet again been upheld by the USSC (7-2!) so the food prep problems that do cause illness in the US can be more easily treated without bankrupting the patient.
    My belief is only my belief. Bad cooking can make a person sick. My Uncle never got sick. Having a close relative who has actually eaten it at least gives me a little input into the topic I believe. He did not refuse the meal it would have been improper to do so as his head might be still hanging in some collection shrunken down to size.

    Bad food prep was part of what I mentioned along with storage. If it never jumps from nothing at all why do they look for a link where it jumps and they investigate food markets or capture rodents in areas affected by say Hanta virus?

    Blood borne diseases are common in the world too. They look to find the link where it jumped from animal to human beings. Simple. Maybe cooking it is no problem and these can even be eaten raw according to your point?

    I think you could have a good point yet sometimes you really try hard to be contrary Jim especially if you are spending long hours slaving away in your Lab. Surely there is some connection no need to get nitpicky. Some turn to misspellings of words to pass the time yet not you as you are mostly if only annoying at worst you still are quite bright.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    Do not want to start an argument here but it seems like I saw a short video clip of the Wuhan market when this thing first started and references to horse shoe bats being among the wild animals being sold.
    And Christians are cannibals that eat flesh and drink blood, too. Seriously, been to Wuhan, been to markets all over the place, no bats.

    If I ever get back you can come visit and we'll go investigate. You can see. People in China do not eat bats.

    It must be one of the few things they don't eat, I'll admit

    Snake is pretty good, if cooked properly. Never tried rattler but I can't imagine it's a lot different from other snakes ?


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