ASML selling latest chipmachine to China US does not agree - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 29 of 29
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    2,877
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Street View Post
    Would be a good time for the USA to build their own machines
    Exactly ! If they are so important, why can't the US do it themselves ?

    Maybe because it would require an actual investment in people and facilities ?

    I believe if i remember correctly a apple ceo sold some rights to Microsoft ... i had a look at the wiki there was a court case about the GUI no mentions of icon sale though .
    Appple ripped off Xerox. The people at Xerox Parc were aghast but the upstairs CEO's back east were totally ignorant (that's redundant, ceo back east and ignorant) and handed out the goodies to the first barefoot fruitarian that walked in the door.

    So Apple took the graphic interface and made the Macintosh. Jobs was at least smart enough to recognize its value. Mickey then copied that shamelessly and Apple took them to court. Apple lost. You can't own ideas.

    So in a way Apple did not "steal" Xerox "intellectual property" either because you can't own ideas. But then they turned around and sued Mickey over "IP" ... that's the thing about this "intellectual property" crap. It's property when you have it, but ideas when anyone else does. Apple also stole the trademarked name iPhone. Cisco owned and used that trademark at the time. These whiners about intellectual peroperty are all the first crawling under the tent flaps to steal, then the biggest screamers about "theft" when it is anyone else.

    The deal with Mickey was later, after Apple had gone down the shitter. When Jobs came back to Apple he signed up Mickey to do Word and Excel for the Mac, which were necessary business programs. In return he dropped some legal proceedings.


    Probably ideas where borrowed / ripped off and applied elsewhere
    It's "borrowed" when US companis do it, it's "ripped off" when Chinese companies do it They are all thieves, or none of them are thieves, it all depends on whose ox is being gored.

    It's long past time that we grew up and recognized there is no such thing as "intellectual property". That's an oxymoron. You can't own ideas.

    i suppose only Jobs and Woz would have known and maybe not made it public knowledge anyway.
    Nah, all well documented. And Wozniak was never involved anyhow, he stayed out of that stuff. In fact, he gave away a bunch of his stock to people he thought were getting screwed. He seems to be a really good person.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Eastern Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    4,507
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4623
    Likes (Received)
    4621

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    It's "borrowed" when US companis do it, it's "ripped off" when Chinese companies do it They are all thieves, or none of them are thieves, it all depends on whose ox is being gored.

    It's long past time that we grew up and recognized there is no such thing as "intellectual property". That's an oxymoron. You can't own ideas.
    While that certainly mimics the official Chinese CPC viewpoint, it hardly complies with how the rest of the world views it.

    First of all when you say it's "borrowed when U.S. companies do it" that's a pretty bold claim without providing actual examples. Do you have documented instances of U.S. companies taking others' inventions and getting away with it or is it just more PRC propaganda?

    And while you are correct when you say "You can't own ideas" that only applies to ideas in general. Otherwise every person who was the first to think "I'd like to see them make ..." would be entitled to royalties. There absolutely is such a thing as intellectual property.

    The general idea of intellectual property is that these are CREATIONS of the mind rather than just simply ideas, and they are creations that have commercial value. Included are literary or artistic works, and inventions, business methods, and industrial processes.

    Without protection there is little incentive to spend time and money to create such things as any bandit could come along and just steal them and sell their own copies. Such theft would be even easier if the thief had access to cheap labor and a culture that legitimized such theft.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    15
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Default

    Motorola in the 90s was the 1st wholly owned foreign company in China. It was a concession the central government agreed to. In 2000 I ran the PMO when we built the latest and greatest semiconductor factory in all of China. 2004 we sold it to a Chinese company, but ran by Taiwanese managers and engineers.

    Before we started the factory we trained over 200 engineers in the US factories. Motorola recruited from the top engineering schools in the country. Have to tell you, I can put up thoae kids against our best graduates in this country.

    To send the latest ASMLs to China at that time, we had to get special permit from DoC, blessed by the DoD. There is think tank in DoD called the Naval Research, they are tasked to be the gate to technology transfers to foreign country.

    Our agreement with them, we could only start products which were 3 technology behind our mature products. The lithography equipment pretty much dictate the technology due to the line width limitations. The ASML tools were deliberately limited with software to control the numerical aperture the machines can run. To advance to the next level DoD had to approve the software key change. DoD initially wanted to actually move the lenses, a very impractical approach.

    The Zeiss lenses, the heart of the machines cost half of the machines.

    No put down on the Chinese capability, just look at the high speed rail that they licensed from the Germans, but I honestly believe, they may be able to copy the rest of the ASML machines, they may fail in the lens manufacturing.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    2,877
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    First of all when you say it's "borrowed when U.S. companies do it" that's a pretty bold claim without providing actual examples. Do you have documented instances of U.S. companies taking others' inventions and getting away with it or is it just more PRC propaganda?
    A couple quick examples that everyone knows about - the graphical interface and the iPhone. Pretty much everything Microsoft has ever done - 'look and feel'. Walt Disney does almost nothing but mine the public domain then copyright it. From another thread, Kurt "ripping off" Orange. The whole mountain bike thing. Heck, all the cars on the road today are copies of the Taurus and Sable. I have had a few things copied, and I imagine that most of us who have made stuff have. If I take ten minutes I can probably come up with ten more, easily. It's very very common.

    Intellectual property is crap. It's an oxymoron.

    You know, here's something that strikes me as kind of funny, kind of sad. When all the middle class jobs were going to China it was "no problem ! for every job lost, we will create five or six at home !" Good thing. We need them, because making $2 an hour you need five or six jobs to keep fed.

    But now that it's the bigshots who might lose out it's Oh noes ! Evil China stealing our way of life ! We must stop this !

    They didn't give a shit when it was us getting screwed, did they ?

    Fuck 'em.

  5. Likes BrandonCarriveau liked this post
  6. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Country
    AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    2,404
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    10
    Likes (Received)
    753

    Default

    Not to mention all the medical research stolen from universities all around the world.....once it was considered disgraceful conduct for a doctor to patent medical or drug research....US companies changed all that ,and then used US govt force to have plant ,animal and human genome patents accepted in countries where the practice was intolerable.

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Modesto, CA USA
    Posts
    7,069
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1191

    Default

    Learn to cheat at the PHd level at Florida universities. No need for Chinese help.
    "Mr. Clean" in San Francisco. in charge of cleaning trash etc just got picked up for taking bribes.
    The Airport director says she never took bribes to rent out airport retail space. Not quite sure why she resigned the same day Mr. clean got picked up. The FBI said she never took their bribes.
    Bill D.

    UCF to fire 3 professors accused of misconduct - Orlando Sentinel
    Last edited by Bill D; 01-31-2020 at 09:56 AM.

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Country
    AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    2,404
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    10
    Likes (Received)
    753

    Default

    The professor could learn a thing or two from our mayor....smilin' Tom ....the corruption comission have been gunning for him ,best they could do was bit of office supplies........he deals exclusively with Chinese developers,and spends most weekends in China.As long as the Chinese financial system is secure from outside prying ,he can keep smilin'

  9. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Eastern Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    4,507
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4623
    Likes (Received)
    4621

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    A couple quick examples that everyone knows about - the graphical interface and the iPhone. Pretty much everything Microsoft has ever done - 'look and feel'. Walt Disney does almost nothing but mine the public domain then copyright it. From another thread, Kurt "ripping off" Orange. The whole mountain bike thing. Heck, all the cars on the road today are copies of the Taurus and Sable. I have had a few things copied, and I imagine that most of us who have made stuff have. If I take ten minutes I can probably come up with ten more, easily. It's very very common.
    You are way off the mark here as to the original subject, which is the possibility of China copying high end chip making machines.

    "Look and feel" is definitely subjective, and designing something that appears similar is not necessarily stealing someone else's ideas. ALL smartphones use similar graphic technology and have a fairly similar look and feel but the real differences are "under the hood". Android and iPhone are very different operating systems. Even the old BREW phones used the basic graphical concepts of icons/touchscreen but the operating system was very primitive and limited in what app developers could accomplish.

    As for cars, while the Taurus and Sable may have started a general styling trend in the same manner that the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey inspired a trend in the styling of computers, office equipment and other devices, much of the commonality of appearance is also due to aerodynamic and crash test requirements. And they don't all look alike either. Have you seen the newer Challengers, Camaros, etc. that attempt for a retro look that will remind buyers of the older versions?

    Back to the subject of look and feel, while I'm sure a skilled team of students might be able to create a simple chip making machine that had similar "look and feel" to the state of the art ones in question here they couldn't even come close to the actual performance of a machine that can create high density chips of such sophistication. That's the difference between science and engineering vs. art and your repeated attempts to "debunk" the concept of intellectual property shows that you either don't understand the difference or do understand but choose to parrot the self-serving philosophy of your Chinese business partner.

  10. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Modesto, CA USA
    Posts
    7,069
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1191

    Default

    I had to laugh when apple is trying to copyright a iphone shaped like a rectangle with round corners. As soon as I heard this I thought of the ancient Egyptian Cartouche symbol which predates apple by 4,000 years or more. Maybe Egypt can copyright it instead and appple can pay royalties to them. It is a rectangle drawn around the pharaohs name.

    May be Egypt can ask Memphis Tennesee to pay royalties for use of the name.
    Bill D

    Cartouche - Wikipedia


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •