Auto quality - Why is price not a factor ?

Was looking thru a Consumer Reports yesterday and was struck by their chart that showed reliability deterioation as cars age. Guess who was the worst ? Not GM or Chrysler....but Volkswagen !

And looking at Mercedes and Porsche, both have black marks for reliability mid and long term. In the case of Porsche, a 911 Carera starts at $80,000...many models well over $100,000...and yet in this day of precision CNC manufacturing and quality control, a $100,000 car is not reliable !

And yet somehow, a Toyota Camry at 1/4 the price, is very reliable !

Anyway, just curious why Mercedes, Porsche and other high end car makers can't seem to get their act together in the reliablity department when in theory they should have the highest quality parts and therefore should be the most reliable ! Thoughts ?

Well, for one thing, they are far, far more complicated.

It's all the gadgetry that breaks. My dad owns a 1999 audi A6, and after about 4 years it became absolutely miserable to fix. All the major components are fine: it's never had transmission problems, the engine has never emitted so much as a single burp...

But everything else... that thing is a ratsnest of wires and sensors and gadgets. We replaced the steering wheel twice because the heating element in it would break. The auto-dimming mirrors lasted a couple years, the LCD display in the instrument panel is impossible to read these days...

It did have a problem with the driveshaft, but given how the car has been driven it's not surprising. AWD with LSD's everywhere doesn't give a lot of places for undue stress to be relieved.


Also, a higher end car can't last long if they don't make major changes, so there isn't as much time to refine things. Think about how long each model of Honda Civic is on the market before they do a major overhaul. My subaru impreza ('07) is the same as my brother's subaru impreza ('02) is the same as my friends subaru impreza ('99).


To be honest, i'm impressed with the audi's reliability, even though it's been less than impressive compared to other cars. considering how much *stuff* is packed into it, and how little of that stuff, really, has broken, they did a good job. Unfortunately, they need to make it three times as reliable in order to make it seem as reliable as the cheaper cars, because there is so much more to break.

Well, for one thing, they are far, far more complicated.

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I should think a Lexus LS 400 is just as complex and yet is one of the most reliable vehicles ever made. Also, think Acura NSX.

I think the "extra complexity" excuse is valid somewhat for vehicles like Range Rover, but for typical Mercedes and Audi's.....considering the prices they get...no excuse...

Complexity, as noted above, is part of it. Electrical problems have been the biggest headache for more than 10 years now, and cars like Mercedes and Porsche are loaded with electronics and other bleeding edge gadgets. As you note, that doesn't explain Lexus and Acura, though they do seem to take a year or two longer to prove out the new gadgets.

Another part is relationships with suppliers. It's been a while since I had automotive clients, but companies like GM and Ford have been outsourcing entire subsystems to suppliers and paying more attention to price than process and quality. Companies like Toyota have worked closer with suppliers, focusing as much on improving suppliers' processes and quality to drive improment. So, that's likely another part.

My guess is that Mercedes (with the Chrysler distraction) and Porsche (with a smaller size) tend to rely more on suppliers, with less oversight, than Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Accura.

I've also seen in many industries, that management gets fascinated with electronics and loads on features with a design team ill prepared to handle either the user interface or reliability issues. Saw this in gas pumps a decade ago, ag and construction equipment, and of course cars. Think BMW iDrive. An "i" in front of anything (except Apple, which has typically waited for others to get the bugs out of the technology and then gets the user interface and marketing right) is not likely a good release 1.0 sign.

The last bit may be the engineering culture. A Toyota or Honda engineer expects to be with the company for a career, is working with experienced engineers who have "been there, done that," and expects that any success or failure will reflect upon them for their career. The best engineers eventually get to be "god" of a new car program -- there's more of an engineering meritocracy. All that used to be true at GM and Ford, not so today. Others might comment on Daimler-Chrysler and Audi -- I'd assume there's been a bit more churn or uncertainty in the engineering ranks?

One word: volvo.



The reason that camrys are so reliable is because
they simply *make* so many of them. The design
is mature and the customer is not ultra-rich,
they know that.

Somebody at Toy said "we need to make a 'nice'
car that runs forver, because that's what this
market segment *wants*. So they do that.

The folks at BMW say, 'those idjuts are gonna
trade the darn thing before the warranty runs
out. So forget reliablity beyond three years.
Make it high performance and lots of bling and
flash. That is *their* market. So they build
to it.

I seriously believe this is the sole reason.

Reliability costs money. How much do you want?
But the question is, it's a trade off. If they
put less reliability in there, they can put
more "other stuff."

So the paradoxical effect is, the more expensive
cars are less reliable. Folks who buy the
really expensive cars don't *care* about
reliability. This is proven by the speed that
honda and toyota glommed onto the high end market
with accura and lexus. Those are the thinking
man's BMW and mercedes - the small subset of
folks who care about performance, style, *and*
reliability.

Jim

So forget reliablity beyond three years

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I have owned BMWs continuosly since 1980. Kept them up to sixteen years. I like them and find them reliable and very well made.

John

Talking of complex and reliability, I used to lust after a DS Citroen then gave up when I realised the headache I would endure.lol

My cousin in France used to have a CX Citroen.Went up into the Welsh mountains in his car.Lots of bumps,divits etc in the narrow mountain road.I think the Citroen made the ride less unpleasent.

On the complex bit, Land Rover Defenders are as simple as you can get short of an Ox cart yet they are not know for reliability (unless you get lucky and or maintain it overzealously).OTOH Toy Landcruisers are known to be bulletproof.

Camrys
I use 1998 & 1992 Camry.The 92 has 280+ thousand miles and still going fine.Only problem in winter when it doesn't like to start if left outside.

I wonder how much people can tolerate or expect gets added to the formula. A Toyota buyer might be willing to accept a problem better than a Mercedes buyer. Example, my father in law had a Camry, had wind noise at the passenger side door, wasn't awful, but still wind noise. Dealer installed a new weather strip, didn't help. You could see that the door didn't close tight in section of the seal area, dealer says, sorry there's nothing more we can do (turns out there were a whole bunch of these cars, some even leaked in the rain). Tell that to the guy who just spent a 100K on a car, he will leave it at the dealer until its repaired.

As the price goes up, so does the requirement for perfection.

Another point is, peoples personality's come out in there car purchase. You have Saab people, Volvo people, Cadillac people, and so on. What Prius owner would talk bad about it, none, it could break down every time they drive it but it would be spoken of as if it were golden.

To Tom1's point, there was an interesting case showing that perception shapes opinion of quality and reliability. The NUMMI plant a decade plus back made the Toyota Corolla and GM/GEO Prizm on the same line. Identical vehicles with the exception of a few body and trim parts, made one right after the other on the same line, by the same workers, same suppliers etc. Watch the line and you'd see something like Corolla, Prizm, Prizm, Corolla, Corolla go by.

The Toyota buyers reported higher quality and satisfaction compared to the Prizm buyers. The Prizm rated something like "very good" while Toyota was something like "excellent." The same difference also showed up in resale value.

However, wrong-minded perception doesn't explain all or even most of the differences. Top makers like Toyota have significantly fewer incidents per vehicle than, say, Mercedes of recent years.

There's one thing people are forgetting: these are cars! A typical Porsche 911 is going to be driven MUCH harder than a Camry. Suspension, drivetrain components are going to be pushed, and since the car is made to be light, there's less "extra" material available to take up the load. All that hard cornering & acceleration is also going to result in body joints loosening, heavy accessories straining their mounts, etc.

Also, electronicss tend to trickle down from the high performance segment to the "economy" segment, so these are the models with the new controls that don't have all the bugs worked out of them yet.

lwalker, I'm not forgetting anything and in fact anticipated a post similar to yours...which is why I mentioned Acura NSX. NSX is high performance mid engine sports car designed to be driven in similar fashion by similar driver as Porsche, and yet Porsche has way more reliability issues than NSX.

Any "pushing it hard" countermeasures should be accounted for in the $100,000 price !!

Ahh, but Lord Milacron- the only examples you have come up with of expensive, or high performance cars that dont have as many quality problems all have one thing in common- they are japanese.

When you think of expensive, and yet miraculously trouble free, tell me, does the name Jaguar come to mind? or Maserati or Alfa Romeo? Or Citroen SM, Renault Alpine, or maybe Porsche 928?

Nope.

Of all the manufacturers world around, it seems that only the big 3 japanese companies can pull off a luxury or high performance car, and build it bulletproof.

And, as you point out, its not due to lack of gadgets- the new Lexus parks itself.

I cant think of another manufacturer, from anywhere in the world, that can match Honda, Toyota, or Nissan, for making quality cars. Now I know this will spark all those "I love my Buick Roadmaster" posts from you know who, but the fact is that anybody who has actually owned and driven a wide variety of american, asian, and european cars will agree that the japanese are the most consistent at building reliability and quality.

I have driven Beemers and Mercedes that were wonderful cars, I have owned and driven a raft of american cars, and loved some of em quite fondly-and I have owned a variety of quirky, lovable, chock full of personality muscle cars, euro cruisers, and sporty little things, but for price/performance/reliability, the japanese have my vote.

Consumer Reports

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I dont trust Consumer Reports, I think its a scam. Who pays them off the most get the best review. Sometimes they are correct sometimes they are far far off. They just got busted for the child seat thing, its the tip of the iceburg IMHO.

but for price/performance/reliability, the Japanese have my vote

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Performance? Really? I think of econo boxes, performance, nahh. Sure they made the NSX that was an OK car, but the Corvette of the day was every bit as fast handled just as well and had a lower price, perhaps the NSX was built a bit better?

I still think that people have been made to be live that Japanese cars are flawless no matter what.

I still "blame" the Japanese car mfgs for ruining cars, front wheel drive (ok,Adler was first GM had the Toronado in 1966 and the Eldorodo) transverse engines and other yucc.

Actually Jaguar *does* come to mind.

As in, "think of the exact opposite of _that_,
in all respects!"



Jim

Maybe some BMW cars are different. But a
co-worker had problems with the convertible
top on her bmw, the dealer was going to eat
her alive. Another guy found the parts used
on ebay and fixed it up.

They wanted more to fix the top mechanism (it
was oil over electric hydraulic for heavens
sake) then I've paid for entire CARS in the
past.

BMW = Bring Much Wampum

Jim

Jaguar, I was told you need to buy two of them, one to drive while the other is in the shop.

BMW, Big Money Waster

Lets not even go into the Puegots, Fiats, Renualts and other lesser brand JUNK

Dont forget the worst Governor of New York, a floundering economy, GM threatening to close plants, NYS goes out and buy a giant fleet of Renault Fuego's, great move...

Of all the manufacturers world around, it seems that only the big 3 japanese companies can pull off a luxury or high performance car, and build it bulletproof.

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Yes, but that wasn't my intent to press that point so much as to wonder why there is soooooo much reliability difference between certain Japanese cars and certain European cars that cost way more. I mean for a relatively inexpensive Toyota or Honda we might see a red cicle on the CR reliabilty charts, but for the Mercedes that cost three times as much, we don't see a white circle, not even a half white/half black...but no...the darn thing is a full black circle..bad as it gets !

I could see it, if Camry was red circle and Mercedes white...but...black ??

So, the mystery still remains, how is it the Mercedes is sooooo much worse even with all that extra money lying around due to it's $70,000 price tag, to buy the best parts to make the things ?

I dont trust Consumer Reports, I think its a scam. Who pays them off the most get the best review.

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I don't trust them entirely in that I wonder just how they come up with these reliablity statistics in the first place. Supposedly they are mailing out surveys to subscribers, but what do the surveys ask exactly and do they require any proof ? One wonders if many of the Japanese car owners just happen to "forget" about that A/C that went out at 40K miles or that Lexus seat belt stopped retracting properly. Still, if the samples are large enough, even the forgetful would even out in the wash.

Re "scam, pay offs" if you've actually read the magazine and kept up with them over the decades, that's getting into tin foil hat hearing voices territory. They've gone against the grain on many stories where one would be hard pressed to conjure up anyone who would even want to "pay them off"...good example being the study of oil changes vs actual engine wear, for which we find out changing your oil at 3,000 miles is downright silly (who paid them for that..the engine remanufacture assoc ? ) and recent expose of the limited role/problems with methanol and biodiesel for the future.

These cars are not made to last, the plan is to replace them about every six years. The new buyer trades in at the three year mark for a new one and the second buyer replaces it in 3-4 years.
People put 100k miles on a vehicle today in the same time peroid it used to take people the time to put on 25k, we drive more now. Your not going to see a 30 year old Camry going doing the road and the thrity year old porsche will become a tinker's nightmare in the same manner the the MG
midget has caused suicide and baldness among it's owners.

My dad used to do work for a high end foreign car mechanic, and take cars and repairs in trade- so he had a whole string of Mercedes above his pay grade- and this was in the 80's- and they were all wonderful luxury cars, fun to drive, smelling of leather and wood- and mechanical nightmares. Stuff was always breaking- stupid stuff that seldom breaks on an american or japanese car.
I am sure they are better now, but Mercedes in particular has always designed things complicated- its the old german knows best syndrome.
Even as long ago as the mid 70's, my moms mercedes symbol hood ornament, which was 4 pieces with a spring, was over 50 bucks- this at a time when a japanese car had metal lettering that cost a buck.

Car companies make choices when they design cars- and the number of 3 letter acroynms on a modern Porsche is a half page long. They are a smaller company, they make fewer cars, and the stuff just isnt simple. It works great when its new, and then, look out.

I would love to own a 928 Porsche- a water cooled V8. Last I heard, though, parts alone to change out the starter were $1800, and required dropping the engine.

I have had japanese cars that ran 10 to 15 years, without ever needing a starter, or a generator, or, in fact, anything but brake pads and batteries, up to 200k or so.

I see 20 and 30 year old japanese cars around here every day- not tons of em, but a few. Just the other day I saw a very clean Datsun B210, if you can believe that- and I recently spotted a faux mustang fastback Celica from the early 70's.

I have had a whole slew of great rear wheel drive japanese cars as well- "flawless?" nope.
But I have changed a whole lot of parts on american iron that never went bad on the jap crap.

I dont read Consumer reports- I only go by my own experience.

It aint the cost of the car, its the complexity of the design, and the quality of engineering.
My old 300zx had a lot of stuff crammed under the hood- and none of it ever went south on me.

I had a Volkswagen.
The ashtray had a CLUTCH !
About 15 parts w/ little gears and crap so the front cover would fold out real smooth.
I had a Nissan pick up.
The ash tray had two parts.
The tray and the cover.
VW always had little problems. Two latches on the glove box. Two mufflers.
I have some German microscopes , too.
Good optics. But the Japs do with three parts what the Germans do with 10.
Of course I have a Toyota with lots of little problems,too.
Between German, Japan and US pickups I've owned they all rate about equal on the PITA scale.
I can't win.
SM

"Your not going to see a 30 year old Camry going down the road..."

Because they weren't being made 30 years ago.

My dad bought one of the first ones, 1985.
He drove it. Then he gave it to me. I drove it.
I gave it to a friend. They're driving it now.

That's about five cars that GM or Ford or
Dodge could have sold. Those cars never got
sold. All because my dad is one of those
consumer reports reader guys.

Had to put three timing belts in that car.
I don't know much but I can bet you a bunch that
if BMW made that car, the would have put an
interference motor in it. And the first time the
belt went, *bang* that would be about two
two thousands bucks for a new motor. Probably
five, given that it would be a BMW motor.

And why did they make it an interference motor?

Because folks drive a BMW for *performance* so
they need that extra 20 percent.

But that's about the biggest expense that was
in that car, three timing belts and a muffler
every once in a while.

This is why GM Ford and Dodge are $hitting
bricks. They simply cannot do that. Folks buy
reliable cars. They stay away from trouble.
Every time I see somebody say 'ah those consumer
reports guys ain't right all the time' I always
think, "he drives a buick."

Jim