Biden unveils new plan to rebuild American Manufacturing ~ Is this possible ?
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    Default Biden unveils new plan to rebuild American Manufacturing ~ Is this possible ?



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    " Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden unveiled the first major plank of his economic agenda Thursday, detailing a moderate proposal to use government purchasing to spur manufacturing in sectors such as clean energy, infrastructure and health care.

    The former vice president delivered a speech outside his childhood hometown of Scranton, Pennsylvania, as he launched what his campaign is calling its "build back better" agenda, which Biden said would pump federal dollars into purchasing and research and development "in a way not seen since the Great Depression and World War II."

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    My words / question / subtitle -

    Potential Renaissance of American Manufacturing or too Little too Late ?

    Do try to watch at least the first 3rd of the video as it speaks to very specific issues concerning US manufacturing and labor markets + R&D development and the real jobs of tomorrow.

    Perhaps rather than over focus on Trump vs Biden or legacy of Obama try to focus on practical realities and potential possibilities of what is being proposed here. Basically in terms of federal funding for manufacturing and manufacturing jobs here in the USA.

    Discuss*...

    Ta.

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________


    * Maybe try to think of constrictive and positive criticisms rather than spiral into bitter cesspool of woe and anger (perhaps )?

    Positive , forward thinking and realistic and experienced 'Peeps" always appreciated (of course). Cynics in their more classical guise also very welcome.


    Federal Government programs + $ ----> Manufacturing + reshoring ? Feasibility and scale and effectiveness ?

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    ^ Not going to happen because Goldman-Sachs will not allow it.

    Oh sure, they'll piss away a little money for a while on some showpiece "Manufacturing Impetus !" but a long-term program to make manufacuring tenable in the US ? That would require tax code changes and a 180* turnaround in corporate management.

    Those guys make big money with things the way they are. They like it this way. They own Congress.

    Ain't gonna happen. Stage management, showmanship, theatre for the masses.

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    I think it is possible. But it will not be easy and will be a very long term approach.

    You will have to reinvest in trade schools and stop thinking everyone goes to a 4 year. You will have to limit wall street. You will have to alter the tax laws to favor long term investing. And you will have to limit venture Capitol gutting successful business for quick profit.

    And you will have to pick winners and losers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    ^ Not going to happen because Goldman-Sachs will not allow it.

    Oh sure, they'll piss away a little money for a while on some showpiece "Manufacturing Impetus !" but a long-term program to make manufacuring tenable in the US ? That would require tax code changes and a 180* turnaround in corporate management.

    Those guys make big money with things the way they are. They like it this way. They own Congress.

    Ain't gonna happen. Stage management, showmanship, theatre for the masses.
    Not sure if you are able to access the full video where you are ?

    Maybe in the next few days I'll dig up the text of the actual proposal.

    So Biden sates he will raise corporate taxes (I think ) from 21% to 29% [Not sure which brackets that applies to.].

    The Amazon "Thing" of paying zero tax will stop.

    Somehow the federal government itself will "Buy" $400 BN of goods and services relevant to the sectors and needs outlined (security based in one sense or another).

    I think an extra $300BN will be raised to help small businesses / entrepreneurs and R&D.



    @EG I agree things like the Green New Deal simply won't happen unless "We" legislate against the Banks and get money out of politics target the Jamie Dimon's of the world - . [Yanis Varoufakis / Diem 25 has made that point a million times - Obviously that won't happen under Biden lol]. Also disturbing findings for example with "Planet of the Humans " Documentary ~ produced by Michael Moore, turns out "Green tech " and "Green New Deal" are not so straight forward as the basic physics doesn't work or add up properly + various corporate interests in Green tech still have the fingers in the cookie jar (in notable cases. - Spoiler alert, burning wood grown in the Amazon to generate electricity is not very helpful to the environment. ] ~ Biden's Green New Deal / tech investment and jobs is more of a passing "dog whistle " to Bernie's former base with GND which was actually a cut and paste job of Yanis Varoufakis' draft of the GND for the European union. It's not a good fit but I suspect Biden's proposal focusses on more core issues and practical issues from the fall out of the Pandemic.

    $700 BN thrown in the general direction of manufacturing and innovation in the USA + leveling the playing field for minority small business owners etc.

    The $400 BN is / are stated as recurring long term stable contracts / orders.

    Given these multi trillion dollar bail outs , this seems a little short somehow ? But maybe the start of something better if it shows promise ?

    maybe a step in the right direction is better than no steps in any useful direction ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mebfab View Post
    I think it is possible. But it will not be easy and will be a very long term approach.

    You will have to reinvest in trade schools and stop thinking everyone goes to a 4 year. You will have to limit wall street. You will have to alter the tax laws to favor long term investing. And you will have to limit venture Capitol gutting successful business for quick profit.

    And you will have to pick winners and losers.
    I agree it's going to take 30 years to turn this battle ship around, no quick fixes.

    Breaking up tech monopolies might be helpful or at least have some sort of buddie system between smaller and larger companies.

    I agree bigger fish "Gutting" smaller fish as you say and Wall Street - how to mitigate that and keep jobs with smaller companies ? In Europe they seem to do that pretty well, smaller companies with a lot independent expertise outside of the "Giants".

    It used to be at places like Curtiss Wright very high quality inhouse training was possible over a larger number of years if that's what you wanted and had a desire and aptitude to advance / succeed.

    That's far more rare these days (as an opportunity provided by a large company), so where the actual relevant training comes from is big question ? + as you say shorter path to get into the work place.

    Seems legislation will be brought forth to protect certain sectors so that only USA based companies manufacture certain critical items.

    Not really sure how the USA will attempt to partially re-shore ?

    + schism of 5G and other. Bizarre future technological splits based on geo-politics, rather than what's the cheapest and most efficient ?

    I have worked for the Federal Government - "Picking Winners and not losers" I wonder how that can be made to work rather than randomly pissing away Federal tax dollars ?

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    I urge you to read Freedoms' Forge. It goes into great detail on why government should stay out of free market dealings like this. During the WW2 socialists wanted the government to take over all war production. William Knudsen told them to go pound sand. Imagine the rules applied to government run programs like this. The government needs to stay out of free market systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    I urge you to read Freedoms' Forge. It goes into great detail on why government should stay out of free market dealings like this. During the WW2 socialists wanted the government to take over all war production. William Knudsen told them to go pound sand. Imagine the rules applied to government run programs like this. The government needs to stay out of free market systems.
    I'll definitely have to check it out.

    I have development partners that work and interface with non-profits and large governmental wings in other countries (U.K. mainly)... Unless one can be super well boundaried with stuff it can be a spectacular car crash and mini-well of exploitation (in the wrong direction). i.e. potentially very bad for business / small business.

    I started out in the U.K. so my education was paid for by the state eventually to Ph.D. level, (with research fellowships in between mainly in the USA.).

    Incubated a business in European Union based in what were called "E-spaces " built in somewhat deprived areas, basically high tech industrial facilities with short term leases, we still paid rent ! but weren't locked into 5 year + leases etc. and had access to communal conference facilities etc.

    It's little incremental things like that that slightly tip things in the favor of innovation rather than looking for massive handouts ...

    Having PPE etc. manufactured in the USA (for example is Ok I think).

    A lot of military / DOD hardware has to be procured on US soil for obvious strategic reasons.

    I think some of the Biden plan focusses also on more independent resources coming from the USA such as Steel , Aluminum, concrete etc. + job creation through infrastructure plans. + fostering new tech as some economists point the finger at tech monopolies stifling innovation.

    @Locknut I have to admit I'm scratching my head on how small business can and will be helped by government intervention ? And what form that actually takes ?

    For example in The U.K. government is now paying the interest on financed new machine purchases during the covid 19 crisis . Not sure how long that extends to / for ? It's at least for one year I belive.

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    Hmmm, "government purchasing to spur manufacturing in sectors such as clean energy, infrastructure and health care".

    Sounds like more of the old "government picking winners and losers". Anyone remember Solyndra?

    The best way to rebuild manufacturing in America is to remove the obstacles that have handicapped domestic industry. And as I recall "the other guy" has been doing just that for a couple years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Hmmm, "government purchasing to spur manufacturing in sectors such as clean energy, infrastructure and health care".

    Sounds like more of the old "government picking winners and losers". Anyone remember Solyndra?

    The best way to rebuild manufacturing in America is to remove the obstacles that have handicapped domestic industry. And as I recall "the other guy" has been doing just that for a couple years now.
    Oh no, he jacked up the DOW, dumped trillions into the stock market and screwed us to look good......

    So they say, but I've seen the exact opposite. Simplified tax laws, no more NAFTA, lower unemployment, wages going higher without raising the minimum wage, etc.

    And no, I don't like his mannerisms, tweets, and language but he has done a lot more than the previous three POTUSes.

    *running for cover as the liberals descend......*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Hmmm, "government purchasing to spur manufacturing in sectors such as clean energy, infrastructure and health care".

    Sounds like more of the old "government picking winners and losers". Anyone remember Solyndra?

    The best way to rebuild manufacturing in America is to remove the obstacles that have handicapped domestic industry. And as I recall "the other guy" has been doing just that for a couple years now.

    Xi Jinping is still composing the final draft for Biden.....

    I can't believe the OP actually believes the mouth breather known as "Plugs"
    has a real plan.
    "You must vote it in to find out the details" sounds like a familiar gameplan from
    the democrats.

    1. There is NO plan
    2. Plugs is simply spewing buzzwords, and sheeple are trying (in vain) to connect them.
    3. After the election, the "plan" will vaporize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    ^
    Ain't gonna happen. Stage management, showmanship, theatre for the masses.
    on that line we agree, you're full of it (usual spasm of angst) on the rest of it.

    Truly designed to appease. Instead of raising tax and doling out money (with all its blunders, conflicts, corruption and cost), if you want to strengthen manufacturing, simply reduce income tax on manufacturers. Same net financial position, way way better results.

    And who says you want to increase manufacturing? How'd that become the wholly grail? At what cost? wages? Is the goal to lower the standard of living? what you want is more productivity and higher paying jobs - that could come from manufacturing, but if you just prop up manufacturing without productivity gains you'll get a lower standard of living....focus on bigger breaks for capital expenditures, credit availability and education

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    This thread probably won't end well....

    Running this guy is elder abuse. Can't enunciate, slurs words, everything off a teleprompter. And where is the applause, is he speaking to an empty room? All I hear is him and birds chirping.

    Before this kung flu BS, places I work, and those of friends and family, they were all making good $$$, kicking ass and taking names. Give this guy the seat, let his handlers pull his strings, this country will suffer. Not the America I want.

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    He is being responsible and not spreading C19 by being careful about where he goes and what he does. He doesn't have his staff closing off seating to force a small crowd to get closer together like they did at Trump's first (poorly attended) rally. I can't take seriously anybody that criticises Joe Bidens intellectual or cognitive ability without recognizing that Agent Orange rambles, mispronounces words, and can't stay on topic for any length of time. And his policies have been a disaster for this country. Time for a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    I urge you to read Freedoms' Forge. It goes into great detail on why government should stay out of free market dealings like this. During the WW2 socialists wanted the government to take over all war production. William Knudsen told them to go pound sand. Imagine the rules applied to government run programs like this. The government needs to stay out of free market systems.

    You should tell Trump? Biden is proposing a $700B debt spend, aimed mainly at helping manufacturing. Trump is looking at a $6000B debt spend, with most of it cycled through finance and directed by the incumbent lobbyists. Only about 5% goes directly to citzens. And it's amazing how many large companies have been first to gobble up the modest sums aimed at small business.

    As I understand the Biden proposal $400B goes to make sure normal US procurement goes to US companies. Presumably competitively bid (free market) and produced by private industry. Pretty much the same deal as the US government buying aircraft and tanks from private businesses in WWII. I'd guess we'd be spending much of that anyhow. Maybe nice to see it kept to US makers. Nice gesture. Not particularly substantive, IMO.

    Another $300B goes to R&D to assist industries of the future like electric vehicles and 5G. We're currently behind in 5G to China. GM and Ford are behind Toyota and perhaps VW in electric vehicles. R&D investment could be great -- if it's well planned and managed. If we ended up the world leaders, bravo.

    It could also be a boondoggle to benefit, say, Qualcomm, Nvidia, Cisco, GM, Ford, etc. So, I'd share some of your concerns on this. However, it sure beats the $6000++ billion or so we've given to the likes of Exxon in various forms of covert and overt support, with a likely legacy of air pollution, climate-related storms, wildfires, coastal infrastructure gone, crop destruction, oil spills, etc. when all is said and done. At best, we just start running out of easily accessed and cheap oil and then still need to look to cheaper and safer energy sources.

    It also surely beats bailing out financial companies taking huge risks, privatizing the profits, and socializing the losses.

    One way that government expenditures have helped assure US dominance in industries has been early R&D followed by purchases. Often (NC tools, finite element analysis, Internet, GPS, NASA spin-offs, etc.) ostensibly for defense. Interstate Highway system much the same. Those have all paid off pretty well. More recently, the genome research has already been a huge benefit. Once you help an industry along the learning curve, the smarter companies can often stay ahead.

    Personally, I'd like to see us upgrade both our electric grid and high speed (fast, affordable, and more secure from hacking) Internet access. Both issues would have high ROI, employ many people, inject money into the economy, and solve problems not being fully addressed by more short-term oriented private companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post

    As I understand the Biden proposal $400B goes to make sure normal US procurement goes to US companies. Presumably competitively bid (free market) and produced by private industry. I'd guess we'd be spending much of that anyhow. Maybe nice to see it kept to US makers. Nice gesture. N.
    No, its bending the Amercian people over to put money in the jean of those business owners, presumably who wouldn't otherwise be competitive. Come on Pete, I thought you knew better and understood the ills of protectionism. No different than trumps tariffs that you were opposed to iirc

    How many times does it have to be said? The only way you want increase manufacturing is because productivity gains make it naturally competitive, otherwise its a BS policy to appease the ignorant and the net result of which is a downgrade to your standard of living

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    I git it, gov will pay us to build stuff it doesn't need, in turn will toss it in the land fill, the recyclers will recycle it and everybody gets rich, except for the tax payers....why use the USSR system we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us, cuts out the middleman that way...Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    No, its bending the Amercian people over to put money in the jean of those business owners, presumably who wouldn't otherwise be competitive. . . .
    Seems to early to tell IMO. I haven't seen a detailed proposal for the $400B.

    Not exactly laudable, but could also be $400B that would be spent anyway, with a bit of public relations attached to it. That was my initial take - could be wrong. You do have a valid point if the US suppliers are thoroughly uncompetitive with their global alternatives. As with earlier leveling-the-playing-field discussions, there could be some reasonable accommodations if the US supplier can demonstrate better workplace safety, less pollution in production, longer warranties, lower life cycle costs, had their R&D stolen, etc.

    As said earlier, I'm skeptical on the $300B R&D. I'd be a fan if there is some research program with a high reward to risk ratio -- of the sort that our currently short term oriented companies would never undertake. I'm not sure, however, what that would be. Could be the Chinese support of Huawei etc. (plus their IP theft) leaves us permanently behind. If so, that actually does become a security issue IMO.

    On electric vehicles, not sure just what (if anything besides batteries - already getting attention) needs researching. It's all in the details.

    I could see the government making competive bid buys to replace it's older gas vehicles (park rangers, military, postal delivery etc.) with a new fleet of trucks. Ideally on a platform that could turn into millions of consumer cars, trucks, vans, etc. that outperform whatever Japan, China, Germany, S. Korea are building. If the vehicles had lower life cycle costs (saving taxpayers money in the long run) - be nice to give our industry a boost. Tier 2 and 3 suppliers might especially be beneficiaries. Maybe one design beats the others -- but once suppliers tool up they can supply other makers scrambling to catch up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Xi Jinping is still composing the final draft for Biden.....

    I can't believe the OP actually believes the mouth breather known as "Plugs"
    has a real plan.
    "You must vote it in to find out the details" sounds like a familiar gameplan from
    the democrats.

    1. There is NO plan
    2. Plugs is simply spewing buzzwords, and sheeple are trying (in vain) to connect them.
    3. After the election, the "plan" will vaporize.

    lol,

    It's not a question of "Belief",

    If the speech was delivered by a Grapefruit with a hole poked in it (animated much like a Muppet) it wouldn't make any difference to me.

    Just purely wondering IF a new administration moves into the WH, and 3/4 of Trillion $ is thrown in this direction, towards or vaguely in the direction of manufacturing / innovation,


    then what is the "Rule set" , the math ?


    What are the rules of the game and how that is likely to play out ?

    I've worked for Federal entities that were completely axed under Bush II so I am of the "belief" that anything can happen but generally in a bad direction rather than a good one. Optimistic sounding pessimist ~ How "British".


    ____________________________________

    Some good posts here and funny ones too.

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    Regardless of which ever candidate wins this fall, it is foolish to make any business decisions based on the outcome. The most successful business are not political, they continue to print money through the chaos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Regardless of which ever candidate wins this fall, it is foolish to make any business decisions based on the outcome. The most successful business are not political, they continue to print money through the chaos.
    Isn't the FED already doing that ;-) (Bracing themselves for super toxic asset acquisition ).

    @otrlt I get what you mean, but in reality Conventional Aerospace and airlines could be in real trouble,

    the need to fly "business men / women" round the world may become a much rarer thing in the future and other reasons for international travel.

    Different sectors may benefit from that.

    Not sure there is an economic climate "proof" money printing machine ? Questions of being sufficiently agile and the ability to adapt to new climates maybe ?

    Even those heavily into the stock market speak of "All weather portfolios" and very crafty methods of diversifying.

    I'm not BofA so my little ship is not unsinkable with massive Gov bail outs and "too big to fail" / must not fail under any circumstances mentality.

    In my small little world FAILURE is ALWAYS an OPTION :-)


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