Biden unveils new plan to rebuild American Manufacturing ~ Is this possible ? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    It will be an interesting race to the next president, a smart guy who talks like an idiot and a demented guy who often gets off track…
    You are absolutely correct Buck,

    I won't be loosing any sleep over this circus show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Isn't the FED already doing that ;-) (Bracing themselves for super toxic asset acquisition ).

    @otrlt I get what you mean, but in reality Conventional Aerospace and airlines could be in real trouble,

    the need to fly "business men / women" round the world may become a much rarer thing in the future and other reasons for international travel.

    Different sectors may benefit from that.

    Not sure there is an economic climate "proof" money printing machine ? Questions of being sufficiently agile and the ability to adapt to new climates maybe ?

    Even those heavily into the stock market speak of "All weather portfolios" and very crafty methods of diversifying.

    I'm not BofA so my little ship is not unsinkable with massive Gov bail outs and "too big to fail" / must not fail under any circumstances mentality.

    In my small little world FAILURE is ALWAYS an OPTION :-)
    Most of the people on this website are not business owners, the majority of their conversations are political.

    Their are some here that want to give advise to those that need help.

    I did not join PM for political advise from retired machinist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Most of the people on this website are not business owners, the majority of their conversations are political.

    Their are some here that want to give advise to those that need help.

    I did not join PM for political advise from retired machinist.
    I thought what you said was good advice in sentiment and principal.

    I have to admit I am pleasantly surprised by the number of sole proprietors and card carrying business owners that do contribute here. Some "Peeps" responsible for some pretty big outfits. + other very skilled and knowledgeable folks that do work for some pretty large and sophisticated outfits too.

    + folks wanting to get into the trade.

    + Older folks that really do have a wealth of knowledge and experience.

    I think it's a good mix.

    Honestly I couldn't tell you which "supposed" group is more "Political" or "Less" ... Times such as they are

    3/4 of Trillion dollars aimed at "manufacturing " and "Small business" and being the opening plank for Biden's "from the basement " policy is hard to completely ignore / dismiss - even being partially afflicted with mild "optimism " and maybe naivety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I thought what you said was good advice in sentiment and principal.

    I have to admit I am pleasantly surprised by the number of sole proprietors and card carrying business owners that do contribute here. Some "Peeps" responsible for some pretty big outfits. + other very skilled and knowledgeable folks that do work for some pretty large and sophisticated outfits too.

    + folks wanting to get into the trade.

    + Older folks that really do have a wealth of knowledge and experience.

    I think it's a good mix.

    Honestly I couldn't tell you which "supposed" group is more "Political" or "Less" ... Times such as they are

    3/4 of Trillion dollars aimed at "manufacturing " and "Small business" and being the opening plank for Biden's "from the basement " policy is hard to completely ignore / dismiss - even being partially afflicted with mild "optimism " and maybe naivety.
    I think the plank of encouraging re-shoring will be bogus if the corporate tax rate goes up. The big international corps move manufacturing to other places over just a few percentage points. It is highly likely that we would actually have a net lose of manufacturing even if the stimulus money had some affect.

    What most of the politicians do not understand is that the corporate tax bite is often the largest expense coming out of net profits. No matter how productive and efficient you make US manufacturing, if 29% is going to the tax man, being competitive in a world market where there are many competing countries taking 10% or less is really a fools errand.

    Not implying I like Amazon getting by with no tax but that is how the politicians have written the tax code. The corporate tax rate is just another "productivity" factor and the money is going to go where it generates the most cash in the pocket for the stock holders.

    Instead of throwing money at nebulous things like green energy and favored infrastructure projects, we would be better off to reduce the corporate tax rate further, close up some of the loss carry forward issues, and let the money go where it sees the best opportunities.

    The US Fed and State governments need to realize that they need to be competitive just like business does. Telling manufacturing to be more productive and then extracting a bigger piece of the profit pie is just plan counter productive.

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    Based on his track record when they already promised to do this and had the power to do so, I'll believe it when I see it.

    Obama backs off 'Buy American' - POLITICO

    This same govt procurement policy was promised before, and failed to deliver. The Obama campaign also talked about "revising NAFTA" and about losses it had caused, then promoted the TPP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I think the plank of encouraging re-shoring will be bogus if the corporate tax rate goes up. The big international corps move manufacturing to other places over just a few percentage points. It is highly likely that we would actually have a net lose of manufacturing even if the stimulus money had some affect.

    What most of the politicians do not understand is that the corporate tax bite is often the largest expense coming out of net profits. No matter how productive and efficient you make US manufacturing, if 29% is going to the tax man, being competitive in a world market where there are many competing countries taking 10% or less is really a fools errand.

    Not implying I like Amazon getting by with no tax but that is how the politicians have written the tax code. The corporate tax rate is just another "productivity" factor and the money is going to go where it generates the most cash in the pocket for the stock holders.

    Instead of throwing money at nebulous things like green energy and favored infrastructure projects, we would be better off to reduce the corporate tax rate further, close up some of the loss carry forward issues, and let the money go where it sees the best opportunities.

    The US Fed and State governments need to realize that they need to be competitive just like business does. Telling manufacturing to be more productive and then extracting a bigger piece of the profit pie is just plan counter productive.
    [Emphasis added].

    I think that's a really excellent point/ response. Especially your last point / line ^^^

    I have seen (personally) certain industries move with less than a drop of a hat to the next location / country for whatever tax breaks may exist. In the film/ movie Industry that's been the norm since the early 1970's. All tax break based 100% virtually / less so cost of production.

    Some of my industrial heros in tech / imaging related fields (that I got to work with) also had to throw in the towel for US manufacturing and had to move overseas and would have done anything to mix and match things to make things more viable on US soil.

    Ultimately it may be automation is the leveler, US robots vs Robots in the far east and elsewhere.

    I still think the USA is a tremendous place to innovate but I think it is important to try figure out how to follow through on US soil especially for more complex high quality and sophisticated systems.

    I've been saying for many years I don't think we will ever be able to out-widget the far east.

    And that's not to say China, Korea, Singapore. Taiwan etc. can't do very high quality work , it's just the USA has to stay ahead on at least a couple of fronts or essentially die.

    Covid 19 really has put into focus what the service sector contributes to the economy and how large it really is.

    I have always believed (simplistically) that the USA has to manufacture things that the rest of the world wants, vs an economy based on restaurants and hair dressers etc. no disrespect to folks working in those industries - but doesn't make for an "Economic Power House" geared around international trade.

    I'm not All government or all private industry but believe the notion of a "Mixed economy" being the most useful , i.e. Government / gov based R&D does what it's best at and the private sector does what it's best at. I don't really believe the so called Market or "Free" market can yield all useful solutions to American citizens.

    There have been some R&D related tax breaks for newer companies but I think those usually span only three years, and some individual sates like New York had schemes where you don't pay any state taxes for something like ten years, but I believe after that things get extremely expensive very quickly - not sure if they still have that scheme ? Possibly the Biden team / plans plug into or extend the R&D tax credits etc. ? [Speculative ] or something similar for manufacturing initiatives ?

    At some point next few days I will try to dig up actual proposed policy documents if they exist in whatever form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    (usual spasm of angst) on the rest of it.
    Nope. Realism.

    No angst here, I gave that up for Lent. Doesn't matter anymore. I'm out of it. The US is going to flush itself down the toilet, nothing I can do, mostly thinking what would be fun for me for the next few years.

    About the realism, just the facts, ma'am. All this blabla here about "oh noes ! it's socialism ! government choosing winners and losers ! Solyndra !" well ... pardon my french but you guys are stoopid. The government already chooses the winners and losers. Look at the tax code. That's what drives everything, not legislation.

    When you can be Mitt Romney and make ten times as much by ripping Fluke apart, cheating the customers by whoring the name you bought for cheap, saddling the company with huge amounts of debt so you didn't even have to put up the cash to buy it, then selling off the assets to put in your own pocket, well shit. What's going to be the eventual outcome ? It's pretty obvious if you have eyes - finance has ripped the guts out of the US. Just go look at all the good quality products that we used to have - every one of them either a victim or on the list. Even if you own Fluke and by god you're not going to sell out to those assholes, when you get to be seventy it's all over but the crying.

    When the rules of the game are set up to whore out the entire country for the benefit of few pimps, that's what you're going to get. Eventually every single decent company is gone.

    Truly designed to appease. Instead of raising tax and doling out money (with all its blunders, conflicts, corruption and cost), if you want to strengthen manufacturing, simply reduce income tax on manufacturers. Same net financial position, way way better results.
    Agree with you that all these programs are both stupid and ineffective. It's like putting on makeup when you have smallpox, not going to do a thing except get a prettier corpse. If anyone really wanted to do anything, if anyone really wanted a free market, then you must change the tax code.

    That's what drives everything. (And you're not going to get that ever because the people with real power will sic the army, the navy and the air force on any real moves in that direction. Gesundheit can babbble all he wants about freedom; agreed, you're as free as any serfs ever anywhere. Free to do what you're told.)

    It's so slanted towards ripping out our own entrails now to make a quick buck for a few, the end result is obvious. Sell your liver and kidneys and a lung or two and maybe the heart for a nice profit ... where does that leave you ?

    I would propose a flat tax (yes I know it's supposedly "regressive" who gives a fuck ?) but tax it equally on all income. Get rid of the 30,000 page tax code. Let's have a real free market instead of this facade.

    And who says you want to increase manufacturing?
    Yes, that's a good point as well. Right now it's a popular thing to spout in Worshington but the vast majority of people, they all think of a factory job as "eeeuw ! disgusting !" They all want to be chiefs without ever being an Indian, like our boy nyc123. What the hell, I'm just glad it's no longer my problem.

    No offense to Mr Biden but his plan isn't going to work any better than the current asshole's. Neither of them even touch on the underlying problems (for good reason, we sure as hell don't want to annoy our owners.)


    Quote Originally Posted by otrit
    Most of the people on this website are not business owners, the majority of their conversations are political.
    Where do you get this crap ? I had a small shop in the US for almost thirty years, have had a registered company in China for eighteen. You want to talk Marlboro Man independent and self-sufficient ? How much government help do you think a dinky little foreign company gets in China ? I personally know four other people on PM, they all own small businesses. My guess would be that the majority of people in this forum either own a small company or have management positions in one. And the younger ones who don't, tend to have their shit together far more than some delusional fruitcakes who post here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    *running for cover as the liberals descend......*
    "Run for cover?"

    F**k NO! Put in bleachers, sell tickets to watch the slime descend ... right TF back into their cesspool!

    Dibs on the beer concession!

    And what sort of optimistic fool still thinks anything Biden is connected with beyond his Defense Attorney will even still MATTER by mid-month, November coming?

    Win or lose, DJT will still be Prez til at least January, 2021.

    D'you not realize all DJT has to do - for the good of the country - is DUPLICATE Gerald R Ford and PARDON the treasonous Obama & Biden sons of bitches before they are even indicted?

    Dumb as an orange-haired Fox?

    No Fine WAY to get that stink OFF, is there? Branded. For life. And on into history.

    What a fitting legacy for a pair of klewless asshats, so confident that they were invincible it never crossed their tiny minds that BILLARY would have butt-f**ked them into a dog's breakfast even more viciously than DJT!

    Aye . to SHARE that brand for clumsy-ass f**k-ups above their intellectual pay grade.... With Trickey-Dickey NIXON!

    "Bipartisan" America at its very BEST!

    Can't "appeal" a Presidential pardon in the minds of the public - whether yah WANTED it or never.

    Joe was f**ked 8 years from Tuesday before Trump was even elected.

    "Bama didn't have to "throw" Biden under the bus. Just kept him in his gunsights out in front of it ... like any other lying dog-faced pony soldier he never really trusted not to get their collective undershorts wrapped around the driveshaft!

    As to "rebuilding America?" It shall have to do that itself. Or not do.

    All DJT's role REALLY consists of is "bait".

    To cause the over-confident parasites to jump up and rush out in plain view so they can first be disappointed in each other.. then turn against each other.

    See Cuomo / DiBlasio....."de-fund police", tear down Jesus and Columbus statues. the "Green New Steal' and not even CLOSE to lonely for only evidence of barking-mad insanity, as they compete to do it faster, stupider, and louder.

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    It was a while ago i noticed you have tax on machine tools you own ( paid for ) this does not make sense....

    over here with covid they are trying to look at keeping the gov budget in order by adding to the tax base, no effort to save a few dollars or spend it wisely.

    There are lots of overheads and some of those keep people in jobs....however what is a efficient way of doing things. I doubt if you could screw the machinist harder to get a few extra dollars out of him and build the manufacturing base at the same time.
    What about helping him out? as a start... not a fan of private equity companies gutting good businesses for a dollar either.

    over here the are reporting we are one of the highest taxing nations... politicians like to give themselves nice superannuation accounts( similar to your 401k) they have guaranteed earnings and build very big buildings for them to work in, some who i talk to don't listen to advice, go and do non commercial things yet expect commercial returns. Then wonder why they have high overheads.
    The generous fee payer always provides for them. This is from local councils upwards to state governements and federal.

    your not alone in having this problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Yes, that's a good point as well. Right now it's a popular thing to spout in Worshington but the vast majority of people, they all think of a factory job as "eeeuw ! disgusting !" They all want to be chiefs without ever being an Indian, like our boy nyc123. What the hell, I'm just glad it's no longer my problem.
    Guess I got you all riled up calling out all the mistakes you've made.

    Guess you also didn't read where I've been working since then in factories, so your point there doesn't really hold up, either. But hey, I'm sure you'll scramble to come up with something else like "well, as a man who's been doing it for the past millenium and has the gray hair to show for it, blah blah"

    Whatever.

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    In contrast to Trump's plan (or lack thereof), Elizabeth Warren put up a pretty interesting plan. It goes as deep as lowering our currency value and seems a good bit more comprehensive, and doesn't dismiss the idea of tariffs. Personally, it sounds a lot better to me, and like Trump, she's one of those that has been calling for this for a long time in spite of the neoliberal movement of "free trade". About the only thing I'm a bit conflicted on is her citation of the new tax plan as promoting more offshoring rather than making us more competitive (I believe the latter is correct and not the former).

    A Plan For Economic Patriotism. By Elizabeth Warren | by Team Warren | Medium

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    In contrast to Trump's plan (or lack thereof), Elizabeth Warren put up a pretty interesting plan. It goes as deep as lowering our currency value and seems a good bit more comprehensive, and doesn't dismiss the idea of tariffs. Personally, it sounds a lot better to me, and like Trump, she's one of those that has been calling for this for a long time in spite of the neoliberal movement of "free trade". About the only thing I'm a bit conflicted on is her citation of the new tax plan as promoting more offshoring rather than making us more competitive (I believe the latter is correct and not the former).

    A Plan For Economic Patriotism. By Elizabeth Warren | by Team Warren | Medium
    Hopefully your reading comprehension is good enough to realize - as even the Dumbasscraptics did - that:

    A) Per her "always has a plan for everything" notoriety, it is all a ration of shit,

    and

    B) there's no fine way to FUND any of the Fake-a-haunt-us plans, if even even ONE of them were actually a good idea? And they are never.

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    I'm not a fan of everything she says, by far, but I prefer to just look at each specific issue and the policy prescription. If her idea is to raise tariffs, not pursue more stuff like the TPP, instate policies to lower the value of the dollar, and create govt education programs like here in Aussieland where I can pay 5 grand to get a diploma in industrial automation in a year and a half.....then hey, sounds good to me. I hear ya though if you don't like it - to each his own. I wish you'd said exactly which parts you don't like, though

    Added note: of course you can get low cost technical educations in the US, but I think the addition of what would be like the TAFE schools here in Australia would be good

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post


    YouTube

    " Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden unveiled the first major plank of his economic agenda Thursday, detailing a moderate proposal to use government purchasing to spur manufacturing in sectors such as clean energy, infrastructure and health care.

    The former vice president delivered a speech outside his childhood hometown of Scranton, Pennsylvania, as he launched what his campaign is calling its "build back better" agenda, which Biden said would pump federal dollars into purchasing and research and development "in a way not seen since the Great Depression and World War II."

    :
    :
    :

    My words / question / subtitle -

    Potential Renaissance of American Manufacturing or too Little too Late ?

    Do try to watch at least the first 3rd of the video as it speaks to very specific issues concerning US manufacturing and labor markets + R&D development and the real jobs of tomorrow.

    Perhaps rather than over focus on Trump vs Biden or legacy of Obama try to focus on practical realities and potential possibilities of what is being proposed here. Basically in terms of federal funding for manufacturing and manufacturing jobs here in the USA.

    Discuss*...

    Ta.

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________


    * Maybe try to think of constrictive and positive criticisms rather than spiral into bitter cesspool of woe and anger (perhaps )?

    Positive , forward thinking and realistic and experienced 'Peeps" always appreciated (of course). Cynics in their more classical guise also very welcome.


    Federal Government programs + $ ----> Manufacturing + reshoring ? Feasibility and scale and effectiveness ?
    If you believe this waste of space, I have a bridge to sell you. He's had 40+ years to do what he advertised with the last 8 in the WH, he did nothing. Why would you expect him to do anything now?

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  19. #35
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    I don't know how this year will end but I do know how this thread will end.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    I wish you'd said exactly which parts you don't like, though
    WTF is the POINT? Not a word of it would ever become reality if even the stuffed-cadaver-walking got elected?

    You still missing Fake-a-haunt-us "plans" are all buzz-phrases and boolshit as won't pass grocery-store 4th grade maths?

    Of course you are. Why else start such a damned fool thread?

    May as well discuss which muscle-meat on a cockroach in my tomato soup might be the better tasting.

    Gits a roach in my soup? I'm simply pouring it down the drain and off to et of sumthin' ELSE without the problem.

    Electing Biden is the same damn exercise, only the drain is shared-out with tens of millions of: "just ignore the f**wit and get on with life" others.

    Same as we did the LAST time the fool and his silly minder were VP & Prez.

    Carryed on, regardless. The treason is being unwound now. The Obamacare only half corrected but ongoing. "TDS" has them biting bloody gouts out of their own asses in public. The DACA bullshit being sorted, too.

    Not easy to DO, but how hard was ANY of that to SEE had already happened, FIRST term not yet over?

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    The real plan is to make things worse, more division and have more dependents on government handouts, have it be "the people" or corporations, destroy hope and moral and gain more power. Expect a lot of nationalization in the coming decade or so.


    And remember, if you don't want Trump to cheat and win the election, demand Voter ID.
    Last edited by SND; 07-12-2020 at 04:01 AM.

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    What Biden really needs is a plan to complete a sentence.

    If he can muster up the guts to go on the debate stage it promises to be entertaining...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    What Biden really needs is a plan to complete a sentence.
    Optimist!

    Wouldn't help. He'd forget it half way through .. if even he could absorb such a novel concept in the first instance...

    Think about it. WTF ARE we looking at with Joe?

    Truman, and every Democratic Prez, run and win, or run and lose, ever SINCE..I actually remember.

    Where in the HELL does Biden rank ..or ANY of the other cannibals as "lost" the DNC primary debates... against even the least well-regarded and loser by widest margin in ANY of that long line?

    Simpy put? He does not rank. At all. On ANY "metric". At all.

    Stevenson? Humphrey, McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore? Any of those is full four orders of magnitude the better man and the better candidate.

    Even Kerry the alien-golem-ugly - congenitally f**ked-up and treasonous waste of protein if ever was - can deliver a speech, field questions, only get caught-out and f**ked-over about a THIRD of the time!

    And those are just the LOSERS!

    "Jacks or better to open?"

    No Fine WAY! Biden has lost even his marbles.

    It is as if the Devil has sent the entire Democratic party to Hell to eternally tear each other slowly to bits.... and hasn't BOTHERED to tell them their special train left the station ...... sixteen f**king years ago . . and is just now FOUR years of whining, bitching, blaming tears into the final tunnel above the molten abyss.

    Surreal.

    Really.

    It is.

    They didn't used to be so suicidally f**ked-up, nor STUBBORN to prove it so!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    In contrast to Trump's plan (or lack thereof), Elizabeth Warren put up a pretty interesting plan. It goes as deep as lowering our currency value and seems a good bit more comprehensive, and doesn't dismiss the idea of tariffs. Personally, it sounds a lot better to me, and like Trump, she's one of those that has been calling for this for a long time in spite of the neoliberal movement of "free trade". About the only thing I'm a bit conflicted on is her citation of the new tax plan as promoting more offshoring rather than making us more competitive (I believe the latter is correct and not the former).

    A Plan For Economic Patriotism. By Elizabeth Warren | by Team Warren | Medium
    Elizabeth Warren has a long history of selling good ideas and failing to deliver. As with Biden it is just another sales pitch.

    Warren has for years been touting a return to Glass-Steagall but before getting elected to the Senate she helped author Dodd-Frank, whose regulations are stifling business growth for smaller financial institutions. As always, excessive regulation favors the large over the small.


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