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  1. #2841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    1. How much control of anything can you expect when the sum total of your commitment to democracy is to put a cross on a piece of paper every five years ?
    Obviously this isn't aimed at you personally Gordon, it's just a generalised comment.

    2. Much has I've tried I've never had control over much in my life and I don't expect Brexit to change one solitary thing for the better in that regard.

    Regards Tyrone.
    ad 1. Some countries do get the chance to vote on EU issues. We get to vote on the stuff that really affects us. Very few EU countries can say the same. Maybe not perfect democracy but better than having no say at all. Our 4 opt outs just to name one.

    The Danish opt-outs from EU cooperation / EU Information Centre - Home

    Of course our politicians, being politicians, have tried with new votes but the majority of us know that if we say "yes" once we don't get a second chance at a "no". We've said "Screw the EU and its ambitions" more than once but politely

    Elections in Denmark - Wikipedia

    It might surprise some how much the Swiss (and Switzerland isn't in the EU) get to vote on.

    ad 2. I believe I do get to control the things I regard as important in my life. I suppose it depends on what each of us regard as important.

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    IMHO i think its more down to the masses becoming educated enough to realize that wealth and debt is the new take on slavery. Extream differences in wealth have time and time again played massive parts in unrest, Sure totally level socialism does not work either, but extreme wealth and poverty will become just as disastrous.

    The yellow jacket french protests are IMHO just a sign of what is to come. Think were in for a rough time, sure WW2 was the far right, but were now rapidly approaching the far left, IMHO there both as dangerous, its just the how there dangerous that differs. Most people truly want some were in the middle and that means true equality not hiding behind the black lives matter shit or the total equality stuff that goes so far as to alienate the natives. Europe is kinda walking into what could be a WW3 the exact polar opposite of WW2, but no doubt still just as bad or worse for the masses.

    The whole fake news shit is its own danger, not so much the fake news, as the potential way it will allow the powers that be to bring in mass censorship. If Russia played these moves, the BBC would be up on there high pedestal pointing it out to the world, now though its looking like a complete reversal, the WWW is about to be censored over here in a way that is possibly worse than china. Im kinda fully expecting that threads like this will be blocked in the eu within the next few years. No doubt based on the notion of ensuring civil peace.

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    ^^^ Adam, you have a good head on your young shoulders

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    IMHO i think its more down to the masses becoming educated enough to realize that wealth and debt is the new take on slavery. Extream differences in wealth have time and time again played massive parts in unrest, Sure totally level socialism does not work either, but extreme wealth and poverty will become just as disastrous.

    The yellow jacket french protests are IMHO just a sign of what is to come. Think were in for a rough time, sure WW2 was the far right, but were now rapidly approaching the far left, IMHO there both as dangerous, its just the how there dangerous that differs. Most people truly want some were in the middle and that means true equality not hiding behind the black lives matter shit or the total equality stuff that goes so far as to alienate the natives. Europe is kinda walking into what could be a WW3 the exact polar opposite of WW2, but no doubt still just as bad or worse for the masses.

    The whole fake news shit is its own danger, not so much the fake news, as the potential way it will allow the powers that be to bring in mass censorship. If Russia played these moves, the BBC would be up on there high pedestal pointing it out to the world, now though its looking like a complete reversal, the WWW is about to be censored over here in a way that is possibly worse than china. Im kinda fully expecting that threads like this will be blocked in the eu within the next few years. No doubt based on the notion of ensuring civil peace.
    Back in the day that post is what I'd expect to have read by a communist ranting against capitalism. We obviously don't view the world the same.

    If "IMHO i think its more down to the masses becoming educated enough to realize that wealth and debt is the new take on slavery. Extream differences in wealth have time and time again played massive parts in unrest, Sure totally level socialism does not work either, but extreme wealth and poverty will become just as disastrous." was true a revolution would be taking place in the USA here and now.

    Certainly not all but too many of those in favour of Brexit seem to have a very negative view on just about everything they don't "like". Not everything, in fact very little in life, is black or white.

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    Yeah maybe, but the linear accelerator anti missile and anti everything shield is still several years off, till then theirs no realistic way to protect me from all this shit, once thats up that will make the Israeli anti missile iron curtain look like a childs toy attempt, plans lidar aimed linear accelerator, goals to be able to take out multiple incoming ballistic missiles at multi digit mach numbers whilst there still 30 miles out in all weather and anything else that tries to invade my air space! Weather that be a russian attack helicopter or even a pissed off seagull. Do to tourists feeding them, we have had some nasty ones around here the last few years so i have to take precautions. Equally even the friendlier seaguls scare the shit out of the gerbils, so there adament we have to take them out!

    But like i say, the linear technology is still largely theoretical and the lidar has issue with hail, trying to take out every falling piece of hail kinda crashes things computationally wise at the moment. Bassed on current lidar, IMHO i seriously suggest you don't try to drive your lidar self driving car in a hail storm!

    Theres also the small matter of the linear accelerator being illegal too, both to own, to use and to develop, as im pretty sure it would fall fowl of the current fire arm laws. hence it has to remain largely theoretical in-till the rest of the system is proven and i then have to build it fast enough before they can arrest me, which means i have to design, build, test and have operational a currently better than millatery grade linear accelerator on fully aimed gimbal sub arc secound accuracy high speed mount, in about the typical 20 minute police response time around these parts.

    All the problems involve so much head scratching i keep wearing holes in my tin foil hat and i fear im going to get mind probed before i can instigate such a defensive measure.

    The Frenches yellow jacket protests just seam so much simpler in comparison. Whilst im sure the tear gas stings, at least it beats being mind probed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    When the attack dogs are clearly beating the merry fook out of people (some probably justifiably - lots not), then I'd expect the touchy feely umbrella of Human Rights and peoples Welfare department to stand up and make a comment.
    However, if the protests aren't on the TV or in the Newspapers, I guess most people won't see it or even be interested.

    I see that Macron has written an open letter to the whole of Europe - addressing everyone
    A little pretentious me thinks...
    Although I personally am concerned about the protest in France I will say that here I do not see much news about what has been continuing there. Also I do not want anything like that happening here either. I believe it would be shut down here pretty quick and it would end badly. Here it could just be over issues which are blown out of proportion really. Seeing a problem which does not really exist is all the rage here. All it does is cause a lot of fighting and distraction from what can be done. Everyone is sick of this yet it continues.

    It effects business too which just undermines family. It is not my place to criticize Europe as they have their own views and are not very different than the US . I see more and more every day similar issues. Actually that encourages me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Yeah maybe, but the linear accelerator anti missile and anti everything shield is still several years off, till then theirs no realistic way to protect me from all this shit, once thats up that will make the Israeli anti missile iron curtain look like a childs toy attempt, plans lidar aimed linear accelerator, goals to be able to take out multiple incoming ballistic missiles at multi digit mach numbers whilst there still 30 miles out in all weather and anything else that tries to invade my air space! Weather that be a russian attack helicopter or even a pissed off seagull. Do to tourists feeding them, we have had some nasty ones around here the last few years so i have to take precautions. Equally even the friendlier seaguls scare the shit out of the gerbils, so there adament we have to take them out!

    But like i say, the linear technology is still largely theoretical and the lidar has issue with hail, trying to take out every falling piece of hail kinda crashes things computationally wise at the moment. Bassed on current lidar, IMHO i seriously suggest you don't try to drive your lidar self driving car in a hail storm!

    Theres also the small matter of the linear accelerator being illegal too, both to own, to use and to develop, as im pretty sure it would fall fowl of the current fire arm laws. hence it has to remain largely theoretical in-till the rest of the system is proven and i then have to build it fast enough before they can arrest me, which means i have to design, build, test and have operational a currently better than millatery grade linear accelerator on fully aimed gimbal sub arc secound accuracy high speed mount, in about the typical 20 minute police response time around these parts.

    All the problems involve so much head scratching i keep wearing holes in my tin foil hat and i fear im going to get mind probed before i can instigate such a defensive measure.

    The Frenches yellow jacket protests just seam so much simpler in comparison. Whilst im sure the tear gas stings, at least it beats being mind probed!
    Optimism is much harder now a days. I get what you are saying clearly and it is not ignored today. For my part I am trying to ignore these things as there is nothing to solve these issues right now. I get a laugh out of the valid appraisals because to me they are accurate. Here in the US in Alabama there was a tornado which killed over twenty people. It is very sad and the fact is that in my area tornados are more of a concern. It makes one focus on things different than what is experienced, it makes things more pertinent and more real life. The focus becomes real and the sadness is not separated by any political argument.

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    That picture of the truck hauling the wind-turbine pedestal being used as anti-nuke propaganda is at first glance hilarious, then alarming. Either it shows how gullible the Labour party thinks the target audience is, or perhaps worse, it shows how gullible the target audience actually is.

    Like a production of the Ministry of Truth...

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    ^ Its not on the news here, its being kept out of the news, go look on social media, go look on youtube, its not dropping off.

    Its not over blown either, most of europes getting fed up with being taxed to death and seeing little in return.

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    I may have came across why Macron said what he said - that he wants cohesion in Europe as it maybe best in his own interests!
    Italy is obviously a HUGE concern at the moment to the EU and I LoL @ Salvini backing the yellow vests...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails italy-bank-liability-2018.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    ^ Its not on the news here, its being kept out of the news, go look on social media, go look on youtube, its not dropping off.

    Its not over blown either, most of europes getting fed up with being taxed to death and seeing little in return.
    They need more electricity for the steam rally in September.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    The Frenches yellow jacket protests just seam so much simpler in comparison. Whilst im sure the tear gas stings, at least it beats being mind probed!
    So give us your idea how how mobs like the yellow jackets should be handled by a government. When things go so wrong as they have with the yellow jackets it's almost always a few (and behind the scenes) wielding the tact stock.

    You have the same in the UK except it's the politicians in favour of Brexit that keep stirring things up more than they are helping Brexit. Look at history to see how easy it is to manipulate the masses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Its not over blown either, most of europes getting fed up with being taxed to death and seeing little in return.
    I might believe that if you can tell me who "most of europe" is in your world. We (Denmark) have without a doubt maybe the highest tax in the world and yet we don't whine. We know what we get for our tax money and don't want much changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I might believe that if you can tell me who "most of europe" is in your world. We (Denmark) have without a doubt maybe the highest tax in the world and yet we don't whine. We know what we get for our tax money and don't want much changed.
    Thats just it, were not getting. Every year my local area sees less and less from big goverment returned and yet ever more is taken. I have no problem with high taxes, i have a problem with high taxes and the funds not being then spent on the actual problems the taxes were raised to address. That to my admittedly simple mind is wrong. Sure no problem raise the taxes on high emission things, equally clearly demonstrate how that money is then funneled into projects to address that.

    Same with policing over here, they want ever more, they spend ever more, yet apart from going after motorists, they flatly do fuck all when it comes to serious crime.

    Stuff like giving multi million pound contracts to ferry companies that have no ferries and such goes on all the time, its wrong how ever you cut it. Same again with the so called new Nuclear build, its fundamentally outdated inefficient more costly technology than other solutions to keep the lights on. it creates a waste stream no one will deal with and IMHO i dont want to leave my of spring with shit like that to clean up.

    As to the yellow jackets, maybe the police should protect the private property, national monuments etc and let them go after the people they wish to linch. Personally i have a big problem with politicians being kept in a warm fuzzy insulated bottle, if they want to introduce shit and cause problems, IMHO i think they should also get to deal with the results. Mearly having that view though probably almost makes me a terrorist in some peoples eyes.

    I very much like the swiss daily vote system, it seams so much fairer.

    Its also worth adding that a very large percent of the voting population are becoming ever older and don't have to deal with the issues the younger people regularly face. Theres a kinda feeling that were being screwed to fund our parents cushy retirements and life styles. With the ever reducing birth rates the old are becoming a not insignificant maintenance issue for the young.

    Any how back to brexit, we voted into a trade association, a free trade deal, we did not agree to giving over the keys to the kingdom, the trade deal has since been twisted and stretched into a parasitic organism that we now need to leave. Roll on march the 30th!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Back in the day that post is what I'd expect to have read by a communist ranting against capitalism. We obviously don't view the world the same.

    If "IMHO i think its more down to the masses becoming educated enough to realize that wealth and debt is the new take on slavery. Extream differences in wealth have time and time again played massive parts in unrest, Sure totally level socialism does not work either, but extreme wealth and poverty will become just as disastrous." was true a revolution would be taking place in the USA here and now.

    Certainly not all but too many of those in favour of Brexit seem to have a very negative view on just about everything they don't "like". Not everything, in fact very little in life, is black or white.
    Yep.
    That’s a quote right out of the 60s hard left hippy book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Thats just it, were not getting. Every year my local area sees less and less from big goverment returned and yet ever more is taken. I have no problem with high taxes, i have a problem with high taxes and the funds not being then spent on the actual problems the taxes were raised to address. That to my admittedly simple mind is wrong. Sure no problem raise the taxes on high emission things, equally clearly demonstrate how that money is then funneled into projects to address that.

    Same with policing over here, they want ever more, they spend ever more, yet apart from going after motorists, they flatly do fuck all when it comes to serious crime.

    Stuff like giving multi million pound contracts to ferry companies that have no ferries and such goes on all the time, its wrong how ever you cut it. Same again with the so called new Nuclear build, its fundamentally outdated inefficient more costly technology than other solutions to keep the lights on. it creates a waste stream no one will deal with and IMHO i dont want to leave my of spring with shit like that to clean up.

    As to the yellow jackets, maybe the police should protect the private property, national monuments etc and let them go after the people they wish to linch. Personally i have a big problem with politicians being kept in a warm fuzzy insulated bottle, if they want to introduce shit and cause problems, IMHO i think they should also get to deal with the results. Mearly having that view though probably almost makes me a terrorist in some peoples eyes.

    I very much like the swiss daily vote system, it seams so much fairer.

    Its also worth adding that a very large percent of the voting population are becoming ever older and don't have to deal with the issues the younger people regularly face. Theres a kinda feeling that were being screwed to fund our parents cushy retirements and life styles. With the ever reducing birth rates the old are becoming a not insignificant maintenance issue for the young.

    Any how back to brexit, we voted into a trade association, a free trade deal, we did not agree to giving over the keys to the kingdom, the trade deal has since been twisted and stretched into a parasitic organism that we now need to leave. Roll on march the 30th!
    I’m wondering why you don’t emigrate since everything is so bad. Maybe you don’t know where to find your idea of Utopia.

    There isn’t going to be a miracle after March 30th.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    It doesn't work like that. Any country wanting to join has to have a "yes" from all the member countries. I doubt that Spain would vote "yes". Same as the time Scotland voted for independence there wasn't any guarantee they could become a member of the EU.

    Try reading this and you'll get why some things aren't easy.

    Explained: the controversial name dispute between Greece and FYR Macedonia | Euronews

    This also is informative although it's a pity expansion at one time overruled common sense.

    Conditions for membership - European Commission

    Which countries are on the waiting list to join the EU?

    Albania.
    Bosnia and Herzegovina.
    Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
    Kosovo
    Montenegro.
    Serbia.
    Turkey.

    Maybe the same as if some country wanted to become the 51st state. I can imagine flag manufacturers would be delighted.
    As a Brit living here in Spain for the last 7 years, I would easily confirm. There is no way that Spain would agree on Catalonia joining the EU if they ever became independent. That is, unless the EU offers them something big in return that they could just say "to hell with those Catalans"...In that sense, Scotland's case is much milder and now that we are leaving the EU, England could actually want Scotland to be a member of the EU for various reasons.

    But having met some Macedonians, I must say that the Greece - Macedonia thing is just a big old Greek act again. They are just being capricious like the spoiled brats of Europe as they were. I mean, imagine us meddling with Ireland's name saying that "Northern Ireland is the real one, you can't have it"!

    Let's be honest, Turkey's never going to become a member, especially now that UK is out of it as well and they didn't stand a chance with their current President anyway but I'm surprised Ukraine's not on the list. I thought they had even better chances after the Maidan events

    That goes to show, once again, that politicians are just the lowest of life forms. We never thought that this would've happened so we sold our apartment in Liverpool years ago and bought one of those flats for sale in Spain at walking distance to sea and with a big terrace thinking that we'll be just working remotely and enjoying life until retirement. Now, even the agreements between the countries are incomplete thus nobody can tell us shit about our future here, just speculations. We don't know if we'll keep our rights, or part of it at least and when these will be decided. We just have to sit and take it until our fate is decided. The only part that is recomforting is that probably Spaniards won't like their citizens to return from UK and join the unemployment numbers here so probably they'll have to figure out a deal in the end..

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Okay Sam, genuine serious question.
    I believe at the beginning, you were all for Brexit.
    I can understand if you have swung against, and I fully agree with you in hating extremes of both sides. Middle ground is usually the best option IMO.
    As you probably realise, I cannot see it going through. Both "Proper Brexit" or "Mays Brexit" (which IMO is worse than where we currently sit which is "in".)

    Here's my question. IF it does happen (Proper Brexit), what do you really think will happen that will make the UK have "full horrors"?

    If you don't want to say do not worry. If you want PM or email me that will be great. Again if you don't please don't worry.
    And here's to you living to a ripe old age (that's not cheap cider in the glass )
    Okay Barbter mate.


    First off the cider thing, I was at school with a lad who's father was a cider alky, who was often see around the village literally as I described;- in a puddle of his own piss spouting rubbish - often foul mouthed etc etc ...and taken away by the Police , who I was reliably informed had to hose the black Moriah out with Jeyes fluid.

    Dear old Sid Carter, who was no angel but taught a young Sami, (along with many others) how to handle himself - etc etc etc, plus the ways and traps of the world that aren't in the books - along with the perils of drinking too much strong / rough cider.


    Then at around 10Y/O I was to discover I had a ''close relation'' (I will say no more) who had to be kept off the stuff so he didn't knock his wife about.

    Brexit;-

    Yes I did vote leave, but more as 2 fingers to the government, - in the (as it turned out mistaken) belief the vote would go remain, it was a heart and head thing, even though I'd taken little notice of the campaign, I was more than dubious about the figures being quoted etc etc etc

    Anyway yet again in my idiotic life I let my heart rule my head, and as my vote didn't count marked the ballot accordingly, …………………………...only to realise Brexit is an attempted right wing coup.


    Okay, being in the EU wasn't all it could have been, it wasn't all that bad either, …...again IMHO much of the so called EU problems were the fault of our own civil service so called ''gold plating'' Brussels edicts - instead of adopting the French / Italian / Greek etc etc method upon receiving an edict ;- AKA shrugging and saying ''whatever - when pushed we might do something about it''

    Being in the EU

    I believe we did more than okay out of it, especially the rural areas, I grew up in the NW Kent market garden area, and went to school with many kids who's family worked on the land, ...….and they were just plain poor! and their tied homes often appalling.

    Post 75 and us in the EU, due to the CAP, there was a marked improvement in the lot of the land worker, ……...yes the farmers and landowners did very nicely thank you, .but it drifted down as well.


    I'm being shall we say ''a bit fussy'' about farming and the countryside etc etc,? possibly, but man needs to eat, ( if in doubt on that score - ask any remaining descendants of the French royal family what happens when there's no food for the people) ……………...and before you go on about relying too heavily on cheap imported food, …….we've tried that and at the very least it did nothing for the nation , not to mention hindered us in WW2.

    I could go on but get to the crux

    The Brexit deal itself ;- Is rubbish, and the fabled ''no deal'' even worse! - refusing to negotiate and walking away from a break up only prolongs the agony, …….and invariably increases the costs involved, .far better to keep talking - which is difficult when you've let yourself get hemmed in to a leaving date (big TWAT move)

    I'm sure that many businessmen ( far better and larger than myself) have at the very least, given the deal offered some consideration.


    Using the divorce analogy, is it not the case, that a Decree Nisi boils down to ''this is the deal that's on offer'' .therefore with Brexit being such a momentous move, I feel it only right, the Electorate should be given a chance to say yay or nay.



    I'm rattling on far too much, but trade with borders is trouble, ……..as is being outside a trading block (as opposed to being in) and we all know trouble costs both time and money.


    If we do leave, I foresee all sorts disasters and unforeseen circumstances, which no Politian, elected representative or civil servant will be able to solve ''just like that'' ………...think about it, say that due to a Brexit cock up, a child under the care of the NHS dies - PURELY AS A RESULT OF BREXIT? ……………(for the record I don't want to ponder that too much??? )

    I repeat, IMO Brexit is a massive mistake, ………..far better we stay in and reform from the inside.
    Last edited by Limy Sami; 03-06-2019 at 04:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagas View Post
    As a Brit living here in Spain for the last 7 years, I would easily confirm. There is no way that Spain would agree on Catalonia joining the EU if they ever became independent. That is, unless the EU offers them something big in return that they could just say "to hell with those Catalans"...In that sense, Scotland's case is much milder and now that we are leaving the EU, England could actually want Scotland to be a member of the EU for various reasons.

    But having met some Macedonians, I must say that the Greece - Macedonia thing is just a big old Greek act again. They are just being capricious like the spoiled brats of Europe as they were. I mean, imagine us meddling with Ireland's name saying that "Northern Ireland is the real one, you can't have it"!

    Let's be honest, Turkey's never going to become a member, especially now that UK is out of it as well and they didn't stand a chance with their current President anyway but I'm surprised Ukraine's not on the list. I thought they had even better chances after the Maidan events

    That goes to show, once again, that politicians are just the lowest of life forms. We never thought that this would've happened so we sold our apartment in Liverpool years ago and bought one of those flats for sale in Spain at walking distance to sea and with a big terrace thinking that we'll be just working remotely and enjoying life until retirement. Now, even the agreements between the countries are incomplete thus nobody can tell us shit about our future here, just speculations. We don't know if we'll keep our rights, or part of it at least and when these will be decided. We just have to sit and take it until our fate is decided. The only part that is recomforting is that probably Spaniards won't like their citizens to return from UK and join the unemployment numbers here so probably they'll have to figure out a deal in the end..
    Turkey is a member of the E.U. or so I have always thought. I guess I need to check that now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Turkey is a member of the E.U. or so I have always thought. I guess I need to check that now.
    Yeah, kinda just like Cuba is a American state too :-)


    So Sami, this mess is all your fault then, I know we gotta stop the old codgers getting to vote! They just get too emotional

    If it makes you feel any better Sami we can swap votes, you can have my remain if i can have your leave? Because i really feel out is better now, i think if we stay in were going to get sucked into a bigger mess in years to come.

  26. Likes Spinit, barbter, Limy Sami liked this post

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