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  1. #4941
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    The unions are still there ,the manufacturing unions are powerless ,and at the beck and call of the bosses...threat of factory closure one of the main EU ploys...........and G.B.C......I do live in Oz,have lived in UK on and off,and own two houses there..(one in Scotland)......and was recently there for a nieces wedding,and I might add ,the views of my cousins re Brexit make mine seem quite mild........funny thing is they dont like the refugee flood much either.
    WTF has unions to do with refugee floods? Off hand I don't know anyone anywhere that like getting too many refugees.

    If the EU can close or move factories then it's a helluva lot more powerful than I thought.

    A load of sarcasm coming up. YOU SEEM A TAD BIASED WITH YOUR VIEWS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    The young are easily hoodwinked with glittering promises for their futures.....when you get to 60 ,youve seen all the politicians fine words turn into lies .........strange thing is Labour is supporting the EU ,when the multinationals have used the EU to crush the unions........of course Blair was also keen on crushing the unions ,so the "intelligensia" could controll the agenda........Socialism is no longer about the worker,its an alliance of opportunist politicians, anarchists,and drug addicts.
    The way I remember it having actually been there at the time was that Mrs Thatcher was pretty keen on crushing the unions. I could be wrong of course. Tony Blair did the square root of nothing to reverse the process. Now you get the more enlightened industrialists bemoaning the loss of trade unions in the UK.
    PS I don't live in Spain,I just go there for my holidays.

    Regards Tyrone.

  3. #4943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    WTF has unions to do with refugee floods? Off hand I don't know anyone anywhere that like getting too many refugees.

    If the EU can close or move factories then it's a helluva lot more powerful than I thought.
    It appears the organised boat service has re-started again in poor Greece (literally "poor").

    I've read a few other cases but not sure how accurate, but I do remember that when Ford closed the Transit factory in Southampton (UK), part of "the deal" was that the European Investment Bank gave Ford 180million to move it to Turkey.


    Tyrone - your memory matches mine - Thatcher crushed the minors union to stop "them" from bringing down the government.
    Previous Labour gov had endured the "winter of discontent" etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    I've read a few other cases but not sure how accurate, but I do remember that when Ford closed the Transit factory in Southampton (UK), part of "the deal" was that the European Investment Bank gave Ford 180million to move it to Turkey.
    You've got me wondering if you know there is a difference between the "EU" and "Europe". Britain has been a country in Europe for centuries and even after Brexit will still be a European country. OTOH only a very small part of Turkey is in Europe.

    The EU would NEVER move any company to Turkey or even help doing so.

  5. #4945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You've got me wondering if you know there is a difference between the "EU" and "Europe". Britain has been a country in Europe for centuries and even after Brexit will still be a European country. OTOH only a very small part of Turkey is in Europe.

    The EU would NEVER move any company to Turkey or even help doing so.
    It is not up to you to decide what the EU will do,28 countries have to vote on that as you keep pointing out.

  6. #4946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You've got me wondering if you know there is a difference between the "EU" and "Europe".

    The EU would NEVER move any company to Turkey or even help doing so.
    #1. I'm not still playing with Lego. Yes, I do know the difference as I have pointed out a few times if you cared to have read.
    I love Europe.
    I despise the European Union.

    #2. You are 100% wrong and talking from your arse. YOUR beloved EU did fund Ford in Turkey, for the sum of 80million. You are very naïve as to how you think your favoured club works.

    Below is a screenshot of details of the EIB (European Investment Bank).
    It says the owner is the member states, and as a taxpayer, I was horrified that my money helped in 1400 redundancies and the closure of the 40 year old plant.
    Although there was fukall I could do about it.

    Also, this was the question asked in the EU Parliament:-
    Ford has announced its intention to close its last UK assembly plant, in Swaythling, Southampton, with the loss of 1 400 jobs. Production of Ford’s Transit Van will switch from Swaythling to Turkey, having been based in Southampton — the company’s last UK vehicle assembly plant — for 40 years.

    It has emerged that the European Investment Bank (EIB) has loaned Ford GBP 80 million to invest in its Turkish plant, as part of its moves to prepare the country’s economy for possible European Union membership.

    Has the Commission considered that certain EIB loans may have a negative impact on firms registered within the EU, especially where the EIB’s very favourable loans could offer an unfair advantage to non-EU firms?


    Here is the answer:-
    The main objective of the EIB is to support growth and jobs in the EU through long-term, sustainable and economically sound investment in infrastructure, private sector companies and small businesses, including in the automotive sector where EIB has financed several projects over the last number of years notably to promote cleaner transport solutions.

    At the same time, an objective of EIB activity outside the Union, in particular in Pre-Accession countries, is the promotion of local private sector development. This applies to both EIB own risk activities, under which the EIB loan to Ford in Turkey was carried out


    Here is both links:-
    Written question - EIB loan to Ford in Turkey - E-011072/2012
    Answer to a written question - EIB loan to Ford in Turkey - E-011072/2012


    So what smart answer have you to say to this then?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  

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    This part statement is also interesting (well, to me anyway...).
    It's from the decision:-

    ...granting an EU guarantee to the EIB against losses under loans and loan guarantees for projects outside the Union

    So I guess that say Turkey had a coup and Ford had to pull out, Ford walkaway from any repayments and the European Union reimburse the EIB?
    Or write it off?
    Not sure how they would reimburse (the EU slush-fund dept just write a check?) or???

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    #4945 camscan
    #4946 barbter

    In this very thread, about 100 pages ago, I supplied links to the loveable EU screwing the UK with our own money to help destroy our car manufacturing.

    However the King of Denmark knows better.
    "The EU would NEVER move any company to Turkey or even help doing so."

    GBC being banned is welcome and understandable.
    Who was the Einstein who unbanned GBC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManicMetalBasher View Post
    #4945 camscan
    #4946 barbter

    In this very thread, about 100 pages ago, I supplied links to the loveable EU screwing the UK with our own money to help destroy our car manufacturing.

    However the King of Denmark knows better.
    "The EU would NEVER move any company to Turkey or even help doing so."

    GBC being banned is welcome and understandable.
    Who was the Einstein who unbanned GBC?
    Sorry Manic, can't go with you on that. You were doing well and then you have to bring Denmarkian royalty into the equation. You know that royalty does not comment on external affairs,behave yourself.

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  11. #4950
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManicMetalBasher View Post
    #4945 camscan
    #4946 barbter

    In this very thread, about 100 pages ago, I supplied links to the loveable EU screwing the UK with our own money to help destroy our car manufacturing.

    However the King of Denmark knows better.
    "The EU would NEVER move any company to Turkey or even help doing so."

    GBC being banned is welcome and understandable.
    Who was the Einstein who unbanned GBC?
    I'm always uneasy around people who want to shut down the debate. I think you're barking at the moon but that doesn't mean I think you should be banned.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    #4950 Tyrone Shoelaces
    "I'm always uneasy around people who want to shut down the debate."

    I would be interested in you demonstrating that this thread is a debate.
    Please show that I am trying to shut down this "debate".
    I did not know that GBC had been banned. I was the person who had to ask why GBC had been banned! See the Greenland for sale thread.
    I can think of c17K reasons why GBC would be banned.
    I am now trying to understand the thought processes of whoever who reversed the decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManicMetalBasher View Post
    #4950 Tyrone Shoelaces
    "I'm always uneasy around people who want to shut down the debate."

    I would be interested in you demonstrating that this thread is a debate.
    Please show that I am trying to shut down this "debate".
    I did not know that GBC had been banned. I was the person who had to ask why GBC had been banned! See the Greenland for sale thread.
    I can think of c17K reasons why GBC would be banned.
    I am now trying to understand the thought processes of whoever who reversed the decision.
    " GBC being banned is welcome and understandable " . I rest my case.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    In all fairnesss,it should be pointed out GBC was outed for a month ,by the previous mod,who ,possibly feared things were getting uncivil.Many other notables have also been outed for a short period.

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    Moderator.
    I will try to not ban, shut down, any member who is civil and articulate and does not post personal attacks.
    Personal attacks and/or constant sniping is unprofessional and undignified.

    A great american once said I will defend Your right to Your views, despite disagreeing with them.
    Greeks said the same 1800 years ago.

  16. Likes Tyrone Shoelaces, barbter, Mark Rand liked this post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    The EU would NEVER move any company to Turkey or even help doing so.
    In addition to the prior example by barbter where they clearly did do exactly that, one of the main purposes of the union is supposed to be economic integration. The UK is a high-cost country compared to Eastern Europe, for example. The whole process of integration will naturally mean that low-to-medium tech production that doesn't rely on short lead times is going to be incentivized to move out of the UK. On top of that, the whole idea of an economic union with zero tariffs makes that even more so. Just think if the EU had zero tariffs and other barriers against China and other countries. You can also add to that the idea that the Euro is undervalued, or that the UK is a net payer into the EU budget that includes infrastructure development in other member states, mainly lower-income ones that are net receivers like Poland, and voila - the whole thing means that the EU absolutely does incentivize these sorts of industry to move out of Britain. I said that earlier in this thread in reply to something you said. Now whether Britain is better out than in is a whole other story altogether....

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    Yes and no.
    The UK is a high-cost country but also has a high-value workforce, unlike romania or poland.
    Thus japanese automakers made good profits and lots of cars in the uk, and not say romania.

    The UK is a net payer to the EU, somewhat. Yes. Good.
    But they got huge value and huge business from the banking sector and companies housing, vastly exceeding the minuscule net EU costs.
    And huge increased british exports of lamb, for example.
    And the UK leisure and holiday industry is much bigger than the EU payments, and ALL of it benefits from and depends on EU free passage.
    The UK expat industry, at 3M persons, is about the same value.
    3M at 10k/pax/yr == 30B/yr total savings.

    Economic integration means expat UK people retiring to Spain, saving the UK more than 10k£ per year / pax.
    For 3 Million UK expats.
    And these expats actually add to the Spain (etc) economy by buying local produce, housing, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    In addition to the prior example by barbter where they clearly did do exactly that, one of the main purposes of the union is supposed to be economic integration.

    The UK is a high-cost country compared to Eastern Europe, for example.

    The whole process of integration will naturally mean that low-to-medium tech production that doesn't rely on short lead times is going to be incentivized to move out of the UK. On top of that, the whole idea of an economic union with zero tariffs makes that even more so. Just think if the EU had zero tariffs and other barriers against China and other countries. You can also add to that the idea that the Euro is undervalued, or that the UK is a net payer into the EU budget that includes infrastructure development in other member states, mainly lower-income ones that are net receivers like Poland, and voila - the whole thing means that the EU absolutely does incentivize these sorts of industry to move out of Britain. I said that earlier in this thread in reply to something you said. Now whether Britain is better out than in is a whole other story altogether....

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Thus japanese automakers made good profits and lots of cars in the uk, and not say romania.
    They're also moving production out of the UK. They said they wanted to consolidate things back to Japan. Part of the reason for that is the EU-Japan FTA that dropped tariffs on autos/auto parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    The UK is a net payer to the EU, somewhat. Yes. Good.
    It's not just somewhat. It is a net payer in the EU's budget, while Poland is a net receiver, for example.
    EU budget: Who pays most in and who gets most back? - BBC News

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    But they got huge value and huge business from the banking sector and companies housing, vastly exceeding the minuscule net EU costs.
    And huge increased british exports of lamb, for example.
    And the UK leisure and holiday industry is much bigger than the EU payments, and ALL of it benefits from and depends on EU free passage.
    The UK expat industry, at 3M persons, is about the same value.
    3M at 10k/pax/yr == 30B/yr total savings.
    This is highly debatable and not nearly as black and white as you're making it out to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    But they got huge value and huge business from the banking sector and companies housing, vastly exceeding the minuscule net EU costs.
    the UK had a huge banking sector before it joined the EU. The passporting thing that everyone talks about didn't even start until 2006 or something like that. Who do you think employs more people per million dollars of revenue - Barclay's or a factory making widgets?

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    And huge increased british exports of lamb, for example.
    This is extremely anecdotal. By this metric, any trade with another country/region is good. Another flip side of looking at this is to say that every British citizen is effectively taxed to pay for uncompetitive EU agriculture. The EU spends a third of its entire budget on the Common Agricultural Policy. As a sovereign country, the UK could have cheaper food.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    And the UK leisure and holiday industry is much bigger than the EU payments, and ALL of it benefits from and depends on EU free passage.
    I don't believe that. People will not just stop going to the UK if they're not a member of the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    The UK expat industry, at 3M persons, is about the same value. 3M at 10k/pax/yr == 30B/yr total savings.
    This is extremely wonky math that assumes the tourism industry would be zero

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Economic integration means expat UK people retiring to Spain, saving the UK more than 10k£ per year / pax.
    For 3 Million UK expats.
    And these expats actually add to the Spain (etc) economy by buying local produce, housing, etc.
    Exactly how are you coming up with these numbers? People leaving also means the UK will not be collecting tax on them nor will they be spending nearly as much money on UK goods/services. Then it's up to the EU to recycle this money, which arguably is the whole crux of the problems the EU is having right now.

  20. #4958
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    They're also moving production out of the UK. They said they wanted to consolidate things back to Japan. Part of the reason for that is the EU-Japan FTA that dropped tariffs on autos/auto parts.



    It's not just somewhat. It is a net payer in the EU's budget, while Poland is a net receiver, for example.
    EU budget: Who pays most in and who gets most back? - BBC News



    This is highly debatable and not nearly as black and white as you're making it out to be.


    the UK had a huge banking sector before it joined the EU. The passporting thing that everyone talks about didn't even start until 2006 or something like that. Who do you think employs more people per million dollars of revenue - Barclay's or a factory making widgets?



    This is extremely anecdotal. By this metric, any trade with another country/region is good. Another flip side of looking at this is to say that every British citizen is effectively taxed to pay for uncompetitive EU agriculture. The EU spends a third of its entire budget on the Common Agricultural Policy. As a sovereign country, the UK could have cheaper food.



    I don't believe that. People will not just stop going to the UK if they're not a member of the EU.



    This is extremely wonky math that assumes the tourism industry would be zero



    Exactly how are you coming up with these numbers? People leaving also means the UK will not be collecting tax on them nor will they be spending nearly as much money on UK goods/services. Then it's up to the EU to recycle this money, which arguably is the whole crux of the problems the EU is having right now.
    This " cheaper food " of which you speak. Will it be cheaper for the man in the street to buy or will it be cheaper for the supermarkets to buy and still charge the same price to me ?

    I've heard all this guff before. North Sea Gas was going to be free and all we'd have to pay was a standing charge for maintenance etc. Did that happen ? I think you know the answer to that one.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Still waiting for your official reply Gordo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Still waiting for your official reply Gordo...
    Hold your breath while I think about my reply barbie.


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