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    Blast from the past - Brexit

    The "blast" seem to be more belching and farting than dialogue and negotiation.

    Come next election I wonder how many political parties the UK will have?

    Once upon a time in the UK, like the USA today, there were only 2 parties to choose between and it didn't make much difference who was running as most voted for the same party as they'd always done. The alternative was to stay home and not vote. Democracy ain't what it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post

    Suffice it to say that it's a good job that Mr Wrench is not actually a practising barrister. His interpretation of the written word seems to be that of someone who sees things filtered through some sort of conspiracy driven paranoia that has no resemblance to what was actually written.
    Unfortunately there are a hell of a lot of people like thaton both sides of the Brexit debate, ……...one of whom (by a corrupt arcane and completely undemocratic process) happens to be the Prime Minister of my country.

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    Well L. S. ...things are getting interestinger and interestinger.....does anyone know what is going on.......does it matter if they do know.......at least no one can say politics is boring any more.

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    ''Well L. S. ...things are getting interestinger and interestinger'' so they say

    ''.does anyone know what is going on.'' ….only those who are orchestrating the whole thing think they do.

    ''.does it matter if they do know'' as long as they keep thinking they do

    ''.at least no one can say politics is boring any more.'' no, just an almighty PITA

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    This is from Victor Davis Hanson. One might say he sees liberty through an American filter, but there are worse viewpoints. Anyway, here's a politically experienced American commentator's take from today:

    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is desperate to translate the British public's June 2016 vote to leave the European Union into a concrete Brexit.

    But the real issue is far older and more important than whether 52 percent of Britain finally became understandably aggrieved by the increasingly anti-democratic and German-controlled European Union.

    England is an island. Historically, politically and linguistically, it was never permanently or fully integrated into European culture and traditions.

    The story of Britain has mostly been about conflict with France, Germany or Spain. The preeminence of the Royal Navy, in the defiant spirit of its sea lords, ensured that European dictators from Napoleon to Hitler could never set foot on British soil. As British admiral John Jervis reassured his superiors in 1801 amidst rumors of an impending Napoleonic invasion, "I do not say, my lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea."

    Britain's sea power, imperialism, parliamentary government and majority Protestant religion set it apart from its European neighbors -- and not just because of its geographical isolation.

    The 18th century British and Scottish Enlightenment of Edmund Burke, David Hume, John Locke and Adam Smith emphasized individualism, freedom and liberty far more than the government-enforced equality of result that was favored by French Enlightenment thinkers such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau. It is no accident that the American Revolution was founded on the idea of individual freedom and liberty, unlike the later French Revolution's violent effort to redistribute income and deprive "enemies of the people" of their rights and even their lives.

    France produced Napoleon, Italy had Mussolini, and Germany gave the world Hitler. It is difficult to find in British history a comparable dictatorial figure who sought Continental domination. The British, of course, were often no saints. They controlled their global empire by both persuasion and brutal force.

    But even British imperialism was of a different sort than Belgian, French, German, Portuguese or Spanish colonialism. Former British colonies America, Australia, Canada, India and New Zealand have long been democratic, while much of Latin America, to take one example, has not until recently.

    In World War I, the British lost nearly 1 million soldiers trying to save France and Belgium. In World War II, England was the only nation to fight the Axis for the entirety of the war (from September 1939, to September 1945), the only Allied power to fight the Axis completely alone (for about a year from mid-1940 to mid-1941), and the only major Allied power to have gone to war without having been directly attacked. (It came to the aid of its ally Poland.)

    Historically, Britain has looked more upon the seas and the New World than eastward to Europe. In that transatlantic sense, a Canadian or American typically had more in common with an Englander than did a German or Greek.

    Over the last 30 years, the British nearly forgot that fact as they merged into the European Union and pledged to adopt European values in a shared trajectory to supposed utopia.

    To the degree that England remained somewhat suspicious of EU continentalism by rejecting the euro and not embracing European socialism, the country thrived. But when Britain followed the German example of open borders, reversed the market reforms of Margaret Thatcher, and adopted the pacifism and energy fantasies of the EU, it stagnated.

    Johnson's efforts as the new prime minister ostensibly are to carry out the will of the British people as voiced in 2016, against the wishes of the European Union apparat and most of the British establishment. But after hundreds of years of rugged independence, will Britain finally merge into Europe, or will it retain its singular culture and grow closer to the English-speaking countries it once founded -- which are doing better than most of the members of the increasingly regulated and anti-democratic European Union.

    Europe is alarmingly unarmed. Most NATO members refuse to make their promised investments in defense. Negative interest rates are becoming normal in Europe. Unemployment remains high in tightly regulated labor markets.

    Southern European countries can never fully repay their loans from German banks. The dissident Visegrad Group, comprised of the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, seeks to create a mini-alliance inside the EU that promotes secure borders, legal immigration only, nuclear power, and traditional values and Christianity.

    Britain has a last chance to re-embrace the free-market democratic world that it once helped to create -- and distance itself from the creeping statism it once opposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    This is from Victor Davis Hanson. One might say he sees liberty through an American filter, but there are worse viewpoints. Anyway, here's a politically experienced American commentator's take from today:

    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is desperate to translate the British public's June 2016 vote to leave the European Union into a concrete Brexit.

    But the real issue is far older and more important than whether 52 percent of Britain finally became understandably aggrieved by the increasingly anti-democratic and German-controlled European Union.

    England is an island. Historically, politically and linguistically, it was never permanently or fully integrated into European culture and traditions.

    The story of Britain has mostly been about conflict with France, Germany or Spain. The preeminence of the Royal Navy, in the defiant spirit of its sea lords, ensured that European dictators from Napoleon to Hitler could never set foot on British soil. As British admiral John Jervis reassured his superiors in 1801 amidst rumors of an impending Napoleonic invasion, "I do not say, my lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea."

    Britain's sea power, imperialism, parliamentary government and majority Protestant religion set it apart from its European neighbors -- and not just because of its geographical isolation.

    The 18th century British and Scottish Enlightenment of Edmund Burke, David Hume, John Locke and Adam Smith emphasized individualism, freedom and liberty far more than the government-enforced equality of result that was favored by French Enlightenment thinkers such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau. It is no accident that the American Revolution was founded on the idea of individual freedom and liberty, unlike the later French Revolution's violent effort to redistribute income and deprive "enemies of the people" of their rights and even their lives.

    France produced Napoleon, Italy had Mussolini, and Germany gave the world Hitler. It is difficult to find in British history a comparable dictatorial figure who sought Continental domination. The British, of course, were often no saints. They controlled their global empire by both persuasion and brutal force.

    But even British imperialism was of a different sort than Belgian, French, German, Portuguese or Spanish colonialism. Former British colonies America, Australia, Canada, India and New Zealand have long been democratic, while much of Latin America, to take one example, has not until recently.

    In World War I, the British lost nearly 1 million soldiers trying to save France and Belgium. In World War II, England was the only nation to fight the Axis for the entirety of the war (from September 1939, to September 1945), the only Allied power to fight the Axis completely alone (for about a year from mid-1940 to mid-1941), and the only major Allied power to have gone to war without having been directly attacked. (It came to the aid of its ally Poland.)

    Historically, Britain has looked more upon the seas and the New World than eastward to Europe. In that transatlantic sense, a Canadian or American typically had more in common with an Englander than did a German or Greek.

    Over the last 30 years, the British nearly forgot that fact as they merged into the European Union and pledged to adopt European values in a shared trajectory to supposed utopia.

    To the degree that England remained somewhat suspicious of EU continentalism by rejecting the euro and not embracing European socialism, the country thrived. But when Britain followed the German example of open borders, reversed the market reforms of Margaret Thatcher, and adopted the pacifism and energy fantasies of the EU, it stagnated.

    Johnson's efforts as the new prime minister ostensibly are to carry out the will of the British people as voiced in 2016, against the wishes of the European Union apparat and most of the British establishment. But after hundreds of years of rugged independence, will Britain finally merge into Europe, or will it retain its singular culture and grow closer to the English-speaking countries it once founded -- which are doing better than most of the members of the increasingly regulated and anti-democratic European Union.

    Europe is alarmingly unarmed. Most NATO members refuse to make their promised investments in defense. Negative interest rates are becoming normal in Europe. Unemployment remains high in tightly regulated labor markets.

    Southern European countries can never fully repay their loans from German banks. The dissident Visegrad Group, comprised of the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, seeks to create a mini-alliance inside the EU that promotes secure borders, legal immigration only, nuclear power, and traditional values and Christianity.

    Britain has a last chance to re-embrace the free-market democratic world that it once helped to create -- and distance itself from the creeping statism it once opposed.

    Good to see this perspective. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    This is from Victor Davis Hanson. One might say he sees liberty through an American filter, but there are worse viewpoints. Anyway, here's a politically experienced American commentator's take from today:

    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is desperate to translate the British public's June 2016 vote to leave the European Union into a concrete Brexit.

    But the real issue is far older and more important than whether 52 percent of Britain finally became understandably aggrieved by the increasingly anti-democratic and German-controlled European Union.

    England is an island. Historically, politically and linguistically, it was never permanently or fully integrated into European culture and traditions.

    The story of Britain has mostly been about conflict with France, Germany or Spain. The preeminence of the Royal Navy, in the defiant spirit of its sea lords, ensured that European dictators from Napoleon to Hitler could never set foot on British soil. As British admiral John Jervis reassured his superiors in 1801 amidst rumors of an impending Napoleonic invasion, "I do not say, my lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea."

    Britain's sea power, imperialism, parliamentary government and majority Protestant religion set it apart from its European neighbors -- and not just because of its geographical isolation.

    The 18th century British and Scottish Enlightenment of Edmund Burke, David Hume, John Locke and Adam Smith emphasized individualism, freedom and liberty far more than the government-enforced equality of result that was favored by French Enlightenment thinkers such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau. It is no accident that the American Revolution was founded on the idea of individual freedom and liberty, unlike the later French Revolution's violent effort to redistribute income and deprive "enemies of the people" of their rights and even their lives.

    France produced Napoleon, Italy had Mussolini, and Germany gave the world Hitler. It is difficult to find in British history a comparable dictatorial figure who sought Continental domination. The British, of course, were often no saints. They controlled their global empire by both persuasion and brutal force.

    But even British imperialism was of a different sort than Belgian, French, German, Portuguese or Spanish colonialism. Former British colonies America, Australia, Canada, India and New Zealand have long been democratic, while much of Latin America, to take one example, has not until recently.

    In World War I, the British lost nearly 1 million soldiers trying to save France and Belgium. In World War II, England was the only nation to fight the Axis for the entirety of the war (from September 1939, to September 1945), the only Allied power to fight the Axis completely alone (for about a year from mid-1940 to mid-1941), and the only major Allied power to have gone to war without having been directly attacked. (It came to the aid of its ally Poland.)

    Historically, Britain has looked more upon the seas and the New World than eastward to Europe. In that transatlantic sense, a Canadian or American typically had more in common with an Englander than did a German or Greek.

    Over the last 30 years, the British nearly forgot that fact as they merged into the European Union and pledged to adopt European values in a shared trajectory to supposed utopia.

    To the degree that England remained somewhat suspicious of EU continentalism by rejecting the euro and not embracing European socialism, the country thrived. But when Britain followed the German example of open borders, reversed the market reforms of Margaret Thatcher, and adopted the pacifism and energy fantasies of the EU, it stagnated.

    Johnson's efforts as the new prime minister ostensibly are to carry out the will of the British people as voiced in 2016, against the wishes of the European Union apparat and most of the British establishment. But after hundreds of years of rugged independence, will Britain finally merge into Europe, or will it retain its singular culture and grow closer to the English-speaking countries it once founded -- which are doing better than most of the members of the increasingly regulated and anti-democratic European Union.

    Europe is alarmingly unarmed. Most NATO members refuse to make their promised investments in defense. Negative interest rates are becoming normal in Europe. Unemployment remains high in tightly regulated labor markets.

    Southern European countries can never fully repay their loans from German banks. The dissident Visegrad Group, comprised of the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, seeks to create a mini-alliance inside the EU that promotes secure borders, legal immigration only, nuclear power, and traditional values and Christianity.

    Britain has a last chance to re-embrace the free-market democratic world that it once helped to create -- and distance itself from the creeping statism it once opposed.
    Yes that makes sense if you ignore 800 or so years of Irish history. And the ROI-NI border will be a huge problem to solve post Brexit. Unfortunately the kind of problem that leads to sh*t getting blown up, a problem mostly held in check since the Good Friday deal and now at risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    That song was a Top 40 hit when I was getting my first bare tit at the drive-in movies ...
    So what were you doing when

    My boy Lollipop
    You make my heart go giddyup
    You are as sweet as candy
    You're my sugar dandy

    ? Inquiring minds and all that

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmead View Post
    Yes that makes sense if you ignore 800 or so years of Irish history. And the ROI-NI border will be a huge problem to solve post Brexit. Unfortunately the kind of problem that leads to sh*t getting blown up, a problem mostly held in check since the Good Friday deal and now at risk.
    Yes that could be a problem if it was a hard border right? I would think that since May had worked that out that if there were a no deal Brexit then it would then have to be a hard border?

    The interests of maintaining the peace should rise above this in Brussels. Even if they want to leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    So what were you doing when

    My boy Lollipop
    You make my heart go giddyup
    You are as sweet as candy
    You're my sugar dandy

    ? Inquiring minds and all that
    Why do you think anything changed except the song?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    Why do you think anything changed except the song?
    Was just idly wondering if Oldwrench was waiting for the end of time

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    Bercow is dividing his time equally between beauty treatments,tanning to perfection,posing in front of a mirror and sabotaging Boris.Just another pommy tosser ,IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmead View Post
    Yes that makes sense if you ignore 800 or so years of Irish history. And the ROI-NI border will be a huge problem to solve post Brexit. Unfortunately the kind of problem that leads to sh*t getting blown up, a problem mostly held in check since the Good Friday deal and now at risk.
    Why would it be a huge problem, though? For whatever bias the ERG has, they put out a paper with statistics and facts about the customs process. There's also a paper called "Alternative Arrangements" by a couple MPs that looks at solutions - many would not be able to be fully implemented for several years. However, that doesn't mean that in the interim, customs would grind to a halt or have huge issues, not to mention that the withdrawal agreement proposed is not asking for this to happen immediately - the very first part of the WA specifies a transition period wherein many of the same rules now would remain until all the different things are hammered out. It's called a withdrawal agreement, but it has all the makings of what is virtually an extension agreement . Anyway, this issue seems overblown to me. The idea projected by the opposing side is that there will have to be a big border wall with guards, but from what I've read on it, I don't see that being the case.

    Goods are already "checked" before they hit a customs checkpoint. I think there's a lot of confusion over what "checks" mean. Ireland physically inspects something like 2% of the goods going through their own border. From what I understand, goods are pre-declared before they get to customs. Those customs checkpoints do not have to be at a wall - they can be away from the border. As far as people go, unless somebody sees ROI as having massive immigration issues with NI being hurt by it, then I don't see how NI would have many problems there. For the UK, they could and probably already do have immigration checks on the UK mainland side across from NI. If they don't, I don't see why they couldn't put this there.

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    The problem is that you have a peace deal in place predicated on there being an open border.

    Aside from your personal claims that it would be no big deal, it appears to be a big deal for the parties involved, they promised to stop fighting and you promised to have an open border

    Not all that complex to understand

    You break the treaty, there is nothing holding the other side to the treaty

    May did not make this up, it is the facts.

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    Up until now I hadn't realized that this sub forum could be seen on Youtube.

    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    The problem is that you have a peace deal in place predicated on there being an open border.

    Aside from your personal claims that it would be no big deal, it appears to be a big deal for the parties involved, they promised to stop fighting and you promised to have an open border

    Not all that complex to understand

    You break the treaty, there is nothing holding the other side to the treaty

    May did not make this up, it is the facts.
    Agreed, putting a physical border there is going to cause problems.

    However, it is the *EU* insisting on this. Personally I think Boris et al should just tell them that because of the Good Friday agreement there will be NO border there and if the EU wants one, they can build & man it. And say that's how it's going to be, we can agree to that or exit without an agreement, your choice.

    It would make far, far more sense to have the border in the Irish Sea and leave NI to be a buffer part of the UK until they decide to become part of Eire but that actually requires a modicum of sense & practicality. I wouldn't be holding my breath on that account.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    The problem is that you have a peace deal in place predicated on there being an open border.

    Aside from your personal claims that it would be no big deal, it appears to be a big deal for the parties involved, they promised to stop fighting and you promised to have an open border

    Not all that complex to understand

    You break the treaty, there is nothing holding the other side to the treaty

    May did not make this up, it is the facts.
    Serious Q, which state / area of the US do you call The Peoples Republic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Agreed, putting a physical border there is going to cause problems.

    However, it is the *EU* insisting on this.
    Depends on which side of the fence you are on. The EU isn't "insisting" on this. It's part of the conditions for being a member of the EU and the UK is choosing to leave. It's up to the UK to figure out how to solve the problem they've created. They've had plenty of time.

    Switzerland and Norway aren't in the EU, have borders, and yet no fuss.

    Two possibilities?

    1. Northern Ireland and Ireland unite. It'll happen one day but not yet.

    2. Northern Ireland becomes an independent country and remains in the EU. I guess that solution is too easy? I can see that happening in Scotland sooner rather than later.

    No matter the outcome very different times ahead.

    Little Britain? YouTube

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    With Ireland there must not be any imposed problems to the Good Friday agreement even if it means some degree of trade like is happening now.

    Ireland and Northern Ireland should be able to have the same arrangements.

    Shipment of goods to the island can be monitored so as to avoid excess trade which would be a concern to the EU.

    In this case peace is the goal and special considerations should apply.

    This one issue should prove what the EU is really made of and that is to allow special situations to open compromise. It opens the prospect to a better cooperation within the EU in some positive way.

    Dealing with a war or the type of situation there or anywhere in Europe must fall into a special category.

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    Too there could be a special status with other countries in regard to access to the EU economy in a favored status. It could hold different levels that they might aspire to have a true membership.

    Plus the whole EU could morph into something different than it is now allowing some autonomy.


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