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  1. #5221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    This is from Victor Davis Hanson. One might say he sees liberty through an American filter, but there are worse viewpoints. Anyway, here's a politically experienced American commentator's take from today:

    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is desperate to translate the British public's June 2016 vote to leave the European Union into a concrete Brexit.

    But the real issue is far older and more important than whether 52 percent of Britain finally became understandably aggrieved by the increasingly anti-democratic and German-controlled European Union.

    England is an island. Historically, politically and linguistically, it was never permanently or fully integrated into European culture and traditions.

    The story of Britain has mostly been about conflict with France, Germany or Spain. The preeminence of the Royal Navy, in the defiant spirit of its sea lords, ensured that European dictators from Napoleon to Hitler could never set foot on British soil. As British admiral John Jervis reassured his superiors in 1801 amidst rumors of an impending Napoleonic invasion, "I do not say, my lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea."

    Britain's sea power, imperialism, parliamentary government and majority Protestant religion set it apart from its European neighbors -- and not just because of its geographical isolation.

    The 18th century British and Scottish Enlightenment of Edmund Burke, David Hume, John Locke and Adam Smith emphasized individualism, freedom and liberty far more than the government-enforced equality of result that was favored by French Enlightenment thinkers such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau. It is no accident that the American Revolution was founded on the idea of individual freedom and liberty, unlike the later French Revolution's violent effort to redistribute income and deprive "enemies of the people" of their rights and even their lives.

    France produced Napoleon, Italy had Mussolini, and Germany gave the world Hitler. It is difficult to find in British history a comparable dictatorial figure who sought Continental domination. The British, of course, were often no saints. They controlled their global empire by both persuasion and brutal force.

    But even British imperialism was of a different sort than Belgian, French, German, Portuguese or Spanish colonialism. Former British colonies America, Australia, Canada, India and New Zealand have long been democratic, while much of Latin America, to take one example, has not until recently.

    In World War I, the British lost nearly 1 million soldiers trying to save France and Belgium. In World War II, England was the only nation to fight the Axis for the entirety of the war (from September 1939, to September 1945), the only Allied power to fight the Axis completely alone (for about a year from mid-1940 to mid-1941), and the only major Allied power to have gone to war without having been directly attacked. (It came to the aid of its ally Poland.)

    Historically, Britain has looked more upon the seas and the New World than eastward to Europe. In that transatlantic sense, a Canadian or American typically had more in common with an Englander than did a German or Greek.

    Over the last 30 years, the British nearly forgot that fact as they merged into the European Union and pledged to adopt European values in a shared trajectory to supposed utopia.

    To the degree that England remained somewhat suspicious of EU continentalism by rejecting the euro and not embracing European socialism, the country thrived. But when Britain followed the German example of open borders, reversed the market reforms of Margaret Thatcher, and adopted the pacifism and energy fantasies of the EU, it stagnated.

    Johnson's efforts as the new prime minister ostensibly are to carry out the will of the British people as voiced in 2016, against the wishes of the European Union apparat and most of the British establishment. But after hundreds of years of rugged independence, will Britain finally merge into Europe, or will it retain its singular culture and grow closer to the English-speaking countries it once founded -- which are doing better than most of the members of the increasingly regulated and anti-democratic European Union.

    Europe is alarmingly unarmed. Most NATO members refuse to make their promised investments in defense. Negative interest rates are becoming normal in Europe. Unemployment remains high in tightly regulated labor markets.

    Southern European countries can never fully repay their loans from German banks. The dissident Visegrad Group, comprised of the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, seeks to create a mini-alliance inside the EU that promotes secure borders, legal immigration only, nuclear power, and traditional values and Christianity.

    Britain has a last chance to re-embrace the free-market democratic world that it once helped to create -- and distance itself from the creeping statism it once opposed.
    We get right wing stuff like this all day every day in the UK. It's illuminating that these people spend most of their time talking about events in the distant past. They very rarely have anything to say about the future. Do modern day Italians grieve about the fall of the Roman Empire or do today's Spaniards yearn for the days when they ruled a large chunk of the Americas ?

    Every Empire has it's day in the sun and The United Kingdom is no exception. That day is long gone and nothing will bring it back. We need to focus on keeping the current UK together, not dreaming about past glories.

    Regards Tyrone.

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  3. #5222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    ...Every Empire has it's day in the sun and The United Kingdom is no exception. That day is long gone and nothing will bring it back. We need to focus on keeping the current UK together, not dreaming about past glories.

    Regards Tyrone.
    With respect, I did not get from Mr Hanson's article that he admires empire as a concept; quite the contrary. We, after all, were the first rebels against British colonialism. But, we were blessed by inheriting English common law, and that, in distinct contrast to French law, has been the most important underpinning of our particular brand of civilization. However, like British civilization, we are coming face to face with the looming threat of Sharia—a decivilizing influence if ever there were one. It's not a stretch to imagine a street full of burkas being sufficient to motivate perceptive citizens to vote to leave the EU. If nothing else it's a vote against the Multicultis. Trade relations with Germany et al and all the rest of it would rank a distant second to that, at least for me.

    Unpalatable, perhaps, but it's not a longing for the return of Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Every Empire has it's day in the sun and The United Kingdom is no exception. That day is long gone and nothing will bring it back. We need to focus on keeping the current UK together, not dreaming about past glories.

    Regards Tyrone.
    Such a lost case. Why even try to keep it together, let it go, The UK is done. Give in to the future. The EU is yours to cherish!

    (Sarcasm)

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    At the moment we have 10 political parties in our parliament but even the furthest "left" and furthest "right" don't have the same hatred for each other as what is happening in the UK and the USA. That they have at times heated discussions but it usually stays at that level.

    Whatever happened to "freedom of speech" and the right to have and respect other opinions with many of you?

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    Whatever happened to "freedom of speech" and the right to have and respect other opinions with many of you?[/QUOTE]

    If there is one person who has no respect for other people's opinions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    So what were you doing when

    My boy Lollipop
    You make my heart go giddyup
    You are as sweet as candy
    You're my sugar dandy

    ? Inquiring minds and all that
    Would that be Barbie Gaye's 1956 recording?

    or Millie Small's 1964

    or Bad Manners 1982

    or Kosmonova 2004

    Inquiring minds and all that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    Whatever happened to "freedom of speech" and the right to have and respect other opinions with many of you?
    Mr Pot meet Mr kettle who is black...

  11. #5228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    Would that be Barbie Gaye's 1956 recording?

    or Millie Small's 1964

    or Bad Manners 1982

    or Kosmonova 2004

    Inquiring minds and all that
    I didn't realise you were such a music buff Sami. I've got the Barbie Gaye version on an " Original Versions " CD somewhere.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    1. Yes !
    Next 5 sub-cases also YES!.

    The BoJo no-deal brexit cut-off // rip-off, will most-likely not satisfy any of the desires or arrangements mentioned re: (N) Ireland(s).
    The US electorate and political system will also not support any failure of Good Friday, according to a major part of influential party majors.

    There are multiple UK political ways of doing bad, poor, crap, silly or impossible choices re: Northern Ireland.
    Disrespecting the Good Friday agreement is probably near the worst option.

    Absent a local Irelands generic popular agreement and implementation and major safeguards for all parties, any treaty reducing movement/trade goods/safety/political issues, is somewhat likely -- to probable -- to flare tensions up in major ways.
    No-one in Ireland wants this.
    In the US a new Ireland time of "troubles" will be a political negative of major or critical effect.
    According to US politicians 2019.
    --

    As You said "special conditions should apply".
    I quite agree.
    So does a majority of the Irish popula, +/-.
    And a plurality of US representatives.
    UK popula.
    EU popula.

    A majority, mostly a big majority, in the EU and the UK, and Ireland, think that the Good Friday agreement and ongoing betterment efforts are a good idea.
    And that the GF frameworks should not be touched, to avoid critical-path sensitive effects.
    --

    One big problem of the current UK brexit plan, imho, is that they think the NI issue is trivial or a walkover or can easily be punted aside for later consideration.
    I disagree.
    On fresh food // imports // logistics / paperwork, I disagree as well re:brexit as-is.

    I am somewhat of an expert, imo, ...
    (details removed.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    1.
    With Ireland there must not be any imposed problems to the Good Friday agreement even if it means some degree of trade like is happening now.

    -Ireland and Northern Ireland should be able to have the same arrangements.

    -Shipment of goods to the island can be monitored so as to avoid excess trade which would be a concern to the EU.

    -In this case peace is the goal and special considerations should apply.

    -This one issue should prove what the EU is really made of and that is to allow special situations to open compromise. It opens the prospect to a better cooperation within the EU in some positive way.

    -Dealing with a war or the type of situation there or anywhere in Europe must fall into a special category.

  13. #5230
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    Moderator:
    Please explain recent specifics.

    Everyone has a right to their opinion.
    Unprofessional, excessively profane, or rude, will be moderated by deleting, as a preference.

    Everyone has freedom of speech, and must be "professional" in posts to some extent.
    Leeway exists.


    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    Whatever happened to "freedom of speech" and the right to have and respect other opinions with many of you?
    If there is one person who has no respect for other people's opinions...[/QUOTE]

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    From items in the news, it appears that BJ is hoping to re-raise the concept of an Ulster/Northern Ireland only border free zone. E.G. the border in the Irish Sea proposal, that was ridiculed by the Ulster Unionists and the right wing Conservatives (including himself). It would appear that the EU is reasonably receptive towards this idea.

    The fact that it will piss off the Ulster Unionists is not really all that relevant any more since, even with them, he doesn't have a majority in parliament. So any agreement which receives cross-party support has an infinitely greater chance of being passed than a Conservative-only plan.

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    I have no diea if this is true.
    And no opinion on it even if true.

    The local Ireland issues have some immensely complex threads - and I have no intention of pretending to unravel them.
    Imo..
    Let BoJo do what he perceives best -- and the UK popula will then act accordingly via votes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    From items in the news, it appears that BJ is hoping to re-raise the concept of an Ulster/Northern Ireland only border free zone. E.G. the border in the Irish Sea proposal, that was ridiculed by the Ulster Unionists and the right wing Conservatives (including himself). It would appear that the EU is reasonably receptive towards this idea.

    The fact that it will piss off the Ulster Unionists is not really all that relevant any more since, even with them, he doesn't have a majority in parliament. So any agreement which receives cross-party support has an infinitely greater chance of being passed than a Conservative-only plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    It would appear that the EU is reasonably receptive towards this idea.
    There was a video doing the rounds of Mad dog Verhofstadt and Barnier discussing this is their wanted option, because they want a unified Ireland...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Moderator:
    Please explain recent specifics.

    Everyone has a right to their opinion.
    Unprofessional, excessively profane, or rude, will be moderated by deleting, as a preference.

    Everyone has freedom of speech, and must be "professional" in posts to some extent.
    Leeway exists.




    If there is one person who has no respect for other people's opinions...
    [/QUOTE]

    Let’s respect is really good advice. I will believe it when I see it.

    A Hard Rain is Gonna Fall.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8O7heJ5ILvM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post

    Every Empire has it's day in the sun and The United Kingdom is no exception. That day is long gone and nothing will bring it back. We need to focus on keeping the current UK together, not dreaming about past glories.

    Regards Tyrone.
    Fully agree with you Tyrone. Keep the Kingdom United.
    But the question still remains, what to do?

    Do we stay "in" and try to "change" the EU, when it is very apparent that
    1. The establishment don't want to change a thing, because they've had ample years to at least try to do it from "within".
    2. Kowtow to more control over us financially and to eventually lose our sovereignty?
    3. Financially the EU is in the shit - they've re-launched Quantitative Easing - it was supposed to have been August but the Germans, French and Dutch all strongly objected to it, but 20billion per month of printing more money is the way to go.
    Apparently.
    (I also came across this - see attached for debt to GDP compared to France and Germany who look to be doing rather well still).

    Or as the 2nd biggest economy in the EU do we stand back from it all, and then we can work with them (EU) together with the rest of the world on our agreed/joint terms?
    After all, ignoring the last 3 years of bollox, we're talking about the long term future here.


    I still say May missed a trick by not revoking A50 when MV1, MV2 and MV3 all failed to pass through parliament.
    She could have easily saved face by blaming a paralysed non-responsive parliament.
    But she wanted to push on...to the circus where we are now, and reading Steve Bakers latest few tweets, IMO he's now rumbled Boris and his plan (Boris Plan) is Mays deal.
    So MV4 looks to be it.


    Edit - ref port blockages and Project Yellow Hammer...:-
    The clip i tried to find earlier regarding Project Yellow Hammer, i can't now find
    So apologies for this....but if you skip to 2.0 and then to 6.39, you can hear what he reckons on it.
    YouTube

    And then this guy who ran Dover Customs terminal says what he thinks
    YouTube
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    At the moment we have 10 political parties in our parliament but even the furthest "left" and furthest "right" don't have the same hatred for each other as what is happening in the UK and the USA. That they have at times heated discussions but it usually stays at that level.

    Whatever happened to "freedom of speech" and the right to have and respect other opinions with many of you?
    Blame it on the internet. ...... Too much, too often.

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    YES !!
    The US, Spain, Finland, all have debts of 103% / GDP +/-, 3% exponential increases.

    The EU and major EU markets (Fr, Ge) have 86% per your example.

    ? What do do ?
    That is very easy.
    Reduce discreasionary expenses by upto 30% over 5 years,
    pay off a large part of debt,
    increase profits per country.
    All 3 are probably unlikely to happrn.

    Profits are increased with increased education.
    Ex.
    In Finland free excellent university education costs == 50.000€ / person to the government - total costs over 4-5 years.
    An avg. taxpayer might bring in 100 (--150 ?) .000€ in tax marginal profits lifetime.
    But a university-educated one brings in avg. costs + 150.000€ EXTRA per person.

    The Finnish government makes about 150.000 € extra profit + 100.000€ base "income" for every single person they educate, including all the immigrants economic or otherwise, from wherever.

    The "right" economic choice for the UK, Finland, the US, or whatever, is to legalise immigrants fast with strong paperwork dependency (like in Finland),
    everyone has obligatory papers/bank accounts/address to be able to claim any benefits,
    educate everyone as much as they can do/accept and tax the crap out of them. As Finland does.

    More/less 90-95% of immigrants to Finland or Spain are really happy to drive caterpillar earthmoving equipment, or similar, at scandinavian starter wages. Then grow on in the jobs ..
    Dismaid at first losing near-half to SS and tax payments.
    Elated with bus fares, child care, excellent education, free great medical, no gangs, police not being a protection racket, so on.

    Immigrants who work are an excellent profit to the country.
    This is how the USA grew exponentially fast, so did australia, early 1900s.

    The US problem is money, mostly.
    11M illegals, 4M work maybe 2M sinpapeles in mostly cali big agro, big hotels, hospitality and service in auto service/pool care/maids/tacos/etc.
    If the US conglomerates had a modicum of vision they would do like the UK and train their workforce for more customer/facing jobs.
    At 2-3x total income /pax and 3x more proportional pay/pax leading to endless demand for the better jobs.


    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    But the question still remains, what to do?

    After all, ignoring the last 3 years of bollox, we're talking about the long term future here.

  21. #5238
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    Yes.
    Thank You re: good advice - Respect Others.

    Most here are actually really really smart, and generally quite willing to post responsibly.
    "Hard Rain" is the last thing I want, having suffered 10 generations of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    Let’s respect is really good advice. I will believe it when I see it.

    A Hard Rain is Gonna Fall.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8O7heJ5ILvM[/QUOTE]

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    Great.
    2nd EU economy, 60-80% of fresh foodstuffs from the EU, 20% of UK economy from banking half++ based on EU.
    20% of economy based on EU holidays (Ryanair et al).

    As leaked 1 yr ago, the US would flood the UK with half-price chlorine-washed chicken, as a base of any trade deal including agriculture.

    The UK cannot ship any major agri stuff to the US.
    The UK major hard exports are ships and armaments, and the US has more and better of same exports.

    You said a very astute comment.
    "we're talking about the long term future here"
    I agree.
    What, exactly, will be the future profitable UK exports without the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post

    Or as the 2nd biggest economy in the EU do we stand back from it all, and then we can work with them (EU) together with the rest of the world on our agreed/joint terms?
    After all, ignoring the last 3 years of bollox, we're talking about the long term future here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post

    ? What do do ?
    That is very easy.
    Reduce discreasionary expenses by upto 30% over 5 years,
    pay off a large part of debt,
    increase profits per country.
    All 3 are probably unlikely to happrn.


    The "right" economic choice for the UK, Finland, the US, or whatever, is to legalise immigrants fast with strong paperwork dependency (like in Finland),
    everyone has obligatory papers/bank accounts/address to be able to claim any benefits,
    educate everyone as much as they can do/accept and tax the crap out of them. As Finland does.
    1. - I honestly believe it will not happen either.
    I am sure the plan is to go the way of Greece...max out the credit card loans on all countries until they can take no more, and have to start supplying assets (buildings) as guarantees to the loans.
    And I believe without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, that the Cyprus "bail-in" was a dry-run for the rest of Europe when the next crash happens.
    Just look at all the laws (across all G20 counties) that were implemented which now allow a bank to "haircut" your account (10,20,30%) to keep it solvent.
    Ignoring the FSA 100keuro "protection guarantee" as this is only valid for banks that go bust.
    And with a legal "haircut" of everyones accounts, the bank won't go bust will it?

    2. - Immigration.
    I can only speak for the South of the UK, and my feelings are that it's full. I've put on here a few times about unacceptable doctors waiting time for an appointment compared to 20 years ago.
    Schools are also at bursting - the infrastructure is overwhelmed IMO.
    Also, I'd say that too many people fighting over the same jobs has certainly kept wages low.
    Great for employers, but not for the average person who struggles to pay for rent let alone a mortgage.


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