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  1. #5261
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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    You seem to forget that because of Brexit I am forbidden to enter continental Europe. (I just made that up).
    That's good news for me then, because as Mark is saying, it would be bad of you to hit a girl anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Re "Does everyone have a right to have their opinion respected? Hell, NO."

    I agree but there's more than one way to not agree or respect the opinion of another.

    1. Just think "Is that person serious or just plain stupid?" and don't comment.

    2. "Is that person serious?" and make a comment to clarify.

    3. Write a post as to why you don't agree with that opinion.

    Too many "replies" are just personal insults or insulting for the sake of insulting.
    This is intended as an observation of the world as it is, not an insult,.......you may be a bit bipolar. No has come close to issuing the number of insults that you have here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    This is intended as an observation of the world as it is, not an insult,.......you may be a bit bipolar. No has come close to issuing the number of insults that you have here.
    There are several here and they are regulars. On other sub forums they can be very polite and when they are on this one they are effected by the environment. Sometimes good discussion is enjoyed and other times it just gets out on a limb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    This is intended as an observation of the world as it is, not an insult,.......you may be a bit bipolar. No has come close to issuing the number of insults that you have here.
    Either you can't count or can't read. Just an observation

    Find an insult that wasn't a retaliation.

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    I do not see a lot of control when the so called arguments happen. It is not common to admit any wrong on some points of view or even on sources that are not right.

    If we were in public I imagine family might remind us to be civil. It is good for us to remember this site wants us to be civil to one another and professional as much as possible and at least once in a full moon at least.

    There will be strong disagreements which I think may be allowed as long as it does not spin out of control. I sense a lot of uneasiness just under the surface here and it seems to tie back deeply into the past.

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    With debate advice like this it is no wonder there is a degradation because of the lack of honest disagreement.

    I have noticed that at times the use of quotation marks “” are used to make up a quote from the previous poster and then take off on a imaginary attack.

    Directly stating the response one wishes a post to be and framing the setting into on’s Own wish is common. Best not to bog down with such people as they are not honestly discussing the topic. In fact they often change it into something else putting words in the discussion which come out of thin air.

    I wonder if honest debate is even a value often times. I do not see it discussed often.

    Example of how many like to debate on these forums. Maybe there are examples of these kinds of actions. It is good to know what crafty acts people like to use. It has been said underhanded tactics occur whenever a argument is unfounded or weak.

    Debate tips ( shady ones)
    Win online arguments!
    Enjoy battling it out on the bulletin boards? Like getting stuck into a good, pointless argument with only one aim - to win at any cost? Then this guide is for you - simply follow the 12-point guide below and success will be yours!

    1. Get friendly
    Always refer to your opponent by his/her first name. Your messages will seem warm and friendly, despite the rabid ferocity of their content. After a few exchanges, begin to use a corruption of your opponent's name - begin with "William", then change to "Billy", then change to something like "Billy-Boy". Women don't enjoy having their names shortened either, so make sure that "Mrs. Elizabeth C. Osbourne-Smythe PhD, QC" is always addressed as "Lizzy".

    2. Picky! Picky!
    Criticising your opponents spelling or grammar will make you look pedantic. Far better to deliberately misread a message, then follow-up with an utterly incongruous statement. And if they make a factual error - no matter how small - make sure you're on hand to remind them of their error as often as possible.

    3. Be selective
    Selective editing is a good way to avoid engaging with your opponent's better arguments. Simply delete that intelligent, pointed question which ends paragraph three and reply instead to the weaker arguments beneath. Should your opponent post something like "I'm sorry but you're talking crap", snip everything but the first two words then graciously accept his apology.

    4. Showboat
    Once the argument is in full swing, publicly thank all those people who have e-mailed you privately with their messages of support. Claim that you are too busy to reply to each of them personally at the moment, but promise to continue fighting on their behalf.

    5. You've got history
    Boasting about how long you've been subscribed to a forum or newsgroup is not advised. Far better to make obscure references to the forum/newsgroup when only thirteen people knew it existed. Fondly recall a similar flame-war which took place in 1989 between "Big Al" and "Phyllis from Kent". If a newly arrived opponent produces a particularly strong argument, tell them that you've already discussed (and won) this debate last year and that you've no intention of repeating your crushing arguments all over again for their benefit.

    top

    6. There's lots of you
    Always refer to yourself in the plural, as though you are speaking on behalf of the whole newsgroup: "all we are trying to say is..." sounds much more pompous than "all I am trying to say is...". When other people join in the thread, the rules are simple: if they side with you, follow-up immediately and enthusiastically, congratulating them on their courage; if they side with your opponent, ignore the tossers.

    7. One step ahead
    Pre-empt all replies. Tell your opponent that you know exactly how he or she is going to respond to your message because you've seen it all before. List all potential counter-arguments to your position and invite your opponent to choose one.

    8. Beer and arguments don't mix
    Never, ever, rejoin a long-running argument after ten pints in the pub. Although the devastating logic of your drunken ramblings will seem inescapable to you at the time, your opponent will lap up the incoherent, inconsistent, beer-troubled flaws in your argument and you'll be unlikely to recover. If you've been involved in a particularly vehement argument where you've staked your reputation on the line, get a friend to lock away your PC on pub nights.

    9. Bamboozle with links
    If your opponent's tenacity is proving too much for you, try a Google counter-attack. This involves posting up an endless stream of vaguely related links, insisting that there's more than enough evidence contained in the 50+ linked sites to crush any counter argument. Ensure you keep the references vague and preferably link to pages that are stuffed full of even more links. If your enemy can't find the evidence they're demanding, blame them for their lack of research skills - after all, you've already provided them with ample resources.

    10. I didn't say that!
    Never apologise for anything, ever.

    11. Play dirty
    Think the argument isn't going your way? Simply post one long, highly antagonistic message in which you completely misrepresent everything your opponent has said in the last three weeks. End by martyrishly declaring that the argument has dragged on for too long and that you have no choice but to kill-file/ignore your opponent. Ignore any further messages and/or quietly re-register under a new name.

    12. Victory is yours!
    Won the argument? Congratulations - but remember to be utterly unbearable in victory. Make generous excuses for your opponent's behaviour ("I know you primary school technicians can be under a lot of stress", "the menopause can be a very difficult time", etc), but retain a calm tone of superiority ("the important thing is to learn from your mistakes"). State that you hope your opponent stays around and reassure him/her that other subscribers are sure to forget all about this sorry business in a couple of years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Re "Does everyone have a right to have their opinion respected? Hell, NO."

    I agree but there's more than one way to not agree or respect the opinion of another.

    1. Just think "Is that person serious or just plain stupid?" and don't comment.

    2. "Is that person serious?" and make a comment to clarify.

    3. Write a post as to why you don't agree with that opinion.

    Too many "replies" are just personal insults or insulting for the sake of insulting. Until a law is passed banning stupidity everyone has the right to their opinion and express it no matter how much you disagree with it.

    Too often the "discussions" (exchanges) in this sub forum are at kindergarten level rather than adult level.
    Jesus, I have heard it all. You post more personal insults than anyone on this board.

    F35 good or bad?

    Here's a tip- just because you can post something does not mean you should post something. Not every impulsive reply that pops into your head is so important that you have to shout it to the world.

    Practice what you preach.

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    Disagree.
    The US pov and negotiating style is that the UK has to accept everything to get basic trade norms - in general - with the USA.

    This has been leaked at least twice re: UK trade deal and was part of the PPT for example.

    SO;
    If the UK wants to sell spare parts for Harrier jets to the US, or UK Jaguar cars, it MUST accept all the US agribusiness trade as-is with no duties, and no choice, on things like chlorine-washed chicken.

    The US chicken is 20-40% cheaper than UK chicken, and will make UK chicken farming economically impossible.
    Simply because just some few wholesalers and some restaurants buying at half-price will undercut the UK farms, leading to an overnight BK-bankruptcy due to being unable to service their debts.

    I did not say US chicken is bad or unsafe.
    I happily ate it endless times in the US.
    --
    My pov is that the US negotiating tactic is terrible on endless reasons, from economics to loyalty to long-term minimax results to h&s to empowering competitors.
    It is a case of eating seedcorn and goodwill built up over 200 years.

    Such strong-arm tactics deliver a one-time short-term boost in sales, but lead to a poor overall end over time.

    Counterpoint:
    If e.g. the US had reasonable quotas in UK chicken, and allowed a tiny (0.2-.23$/kg on 4-5$ product) fee (==5%) to balance local production, then most UK farms could adjust and adapt and not go bk.


    --
    The US had 4-5x more illnesses/deaths per chicken than the EU.
    20 cases vs 5, per x qty, 100.000 iirc, more or less.
    Fact.
    5x more.
    According to US FDA stats, and EU stats, both.

    The US chicken (meat, agribusiness overall) is quite a bit cheaper.
    20-30% cheaper, depending.

    By feeding antibiotics and hormones and chemicals to the animals, in the US, they grow fatter and bigger, faster, leading to more mass and lower COGS.
    The US chlorine wash is an attempt to clean and sterilise the carcass, that has been kept in more unsanitary conditions overall.

    The EU chickens (meat, livestock) are kept in better conditions, leading to better meat, at higher cost.

    There is a big trend in the EU for more natural free range food, free range chicken and eggs, meat, etc.
    About 30% by volume is free-range, aka higher-welfare, I think, at 10-20% incremental cost, give or take.
    For example Lidl the biggest (huge) EU discount chain only sells free range eggs, these days, and the costs are the same as past force-grown eggs.


    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    I hear this a lot, but I think it's not quite that true or black and white.

    1.
    As far as chicken, the UK doesn't have to accept anything.

    The US can demand whatever it wants, but the UK is the one that has to agree to it. Secondly, why is this a problem with chlorine-washed chicken? First I heard it was the chlorine itself, then it came out that the EU's own food safety reports said this was a non-issue years ago. Then I heard that it wasn't the chlorine, but the fact that using a chlorine dip means the plants themselves are unsanitary. I don't know that that holds weight, either - I've eaten chicken for a long, long time and have yet to have any problems with that. I also worked in a beef plant as one of my first jobs before going off to college, and it was kept very clean. Much cleaner than any house I've been to, plus there were USDA inspectors on the floor. Anyway, what is to say that the UK could/would not implement a certification process as is done with medical devices, for one example? The US does this via the FDA going out and inspecting facilities overseas, although the scope of this I'm not sure. Also, the EU/US have some differing regulations on ag products that make imports/exports tougher, not to mention the tariffs/quotas/subsidies that already distort that.

    --
    2.
    Yes.
    The reality is complicated.
    Doing short-term landgrabs economically is always a terrible idea, economically, morally, socio-economically.


    2.
    The reality is complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Either you can't count or can't read. Just an observation

    Find an insult that wasn't a retaliation.
    So insults are ok, so long as Gordon B Clarke thinks they're deserved? Can anyone spell narcissistic personality disorder?

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    Moderator:
    Insults are never ok.

    His comment, now, was quite a bit less than many loaded on him recently.

    I wish (some) posters would reduce snarking on Gordon, who is smart articulate and knowledgeable.
    He also posts factual machining stuff.

    I also wish Gordon would somewhat temper his replies.

    fwiw ..
    I did not "say", state, threaten, or order - as moderator.

    People here are exceptionally skilled, smart, often stubborn, high achievers.
    Such people deserve recognition, not silly 10-year old schoolyard disciplne.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    So insults are ok, so long as Gordon B Clarke thinks they're deserved? Can anyone spell narcissistic personality disorder?

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    we can agree to disagree, but I get your point. I always like the expression that a gentleman doesn't engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. but Dang! it can be so much fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    It is a case of eating seedcorn and goodwill built up over 200 years.
    You mean, since the last time they invaded the US and burned the White House ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Disagree.
    The US pov and negotiating style is that the UK has to accept everything to get basic trade norms - in general - with the USA.

    This has been leaked at least twice re: UK trade deal and was part of the PPT for example.

    SO;
    If the UK want´s to sell spare parts for Harrier jets to the US, or UK Jaguar cars, it MUST accept all the US agribusiness trade as-is with no duties, and no choice, on things like chlorine-washed chicken.

    The US chicken is 20-40% cheaper than UK chicken, and will make UK chicken farming economically impossible.
    Simply because just some few wholesalers and some restaurants buying at half-price will undercut the UK farms, leading to an overnight BK-bankruptcy due to being unable to service their debts.

    I did not say US chicken is bad or unsafe.
    I happily ate it endless times in the US.
    --
    My pov is that the US negotiating tactic is terrible on endless reasons, from economics to loyalty to long-term minimax results to h&s to empowering competitors.
    It is a case of eating seedcorn and goodwill built up over 200 years.

    Such strong-arm tactics deliver a one-time short-term boost in sales, but lead to a poor overall end over time.

    Counterpoint:
    If e.g. the US had reasonable quotas in UK chicken, and allowed a tiny (0.2-.23$/kg on 4-5$ product) fee (==5%) to balance local production, then most UK farms could adjust and adapt and not go bk.


    --
    The US had 4-5x more illnesses/deaths per chicken than the EU.
    20 cases vs 5, per x qty, 100.000 iirc, more or less.
    Fact.
    5x more.
    According to US FDA stats, and EU stats, both.

    The US chicken (meat, agribusiness overall) is quite a bit cheaper.
    20-30% cheaper, depending.

    By feeding antibiotics and hormones and chemicals to the animals, in the US, they grow fatter and bigger, faster, leading to more mass and lower COGS.
    The US chlorine wash is an attempt to clean and sterilise the carcass, that has been kept in more unsanitary conditions overall.

    The EU chickens (meat, livestock) are kept in better conditions, leading to better meat, at higher cost.

    There is a big trend in the EU for more natural free range food, free range chicken and eggs, meat, etc.
    About 30% by volume is free-range, aka higher-welfare, I think, at 10-20% incremental cost, give or take.
    For example Lidl the biggest (huge) EU discount chain only sells free range eggs, these days, and the costs are the same as past force-grown eggs.
    Thank You everyone that wants to eat Chicken do not want bacteria to make them sick. Forvyears bleach has been used proportionally especially in the South to be sure there is no sickness that results in the US. Maybe it would be a good practice in Europe. I have read something is a concern there even though the processing of chicken is better and more expensive. Are there any studies that prove American Chicken causes health problems especially since our chicken is washed with pure water also? I really do not know except I am with Europe that the less bleach used the better. Short of starvation I agree wholeheartedly yet this may not be harmful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    ...His comment, now, was quite a bit less than many loaded on him recently.

    I wish (some) posters would reduce snarking on Gordon, who is smart articulate and knowledgeable.
    He also posts factual machining stuff.

    I also wish Gordon would somewhat temper his replies.
    I don't think Gordon is emotionally capable of tempering his replies. Even if there were some "smart and knowledgeable" content in there, it's lost in the constant stream of insults.

    It's impossible to read this forum without being subjected to Gordon's juvenile behavior.

    I guess you haven't seen the pattern. Just a few recent examples:

    Recession?

    Greenland - for sale? LOL

    I've had it with Health Insurance, looked and found online Primary Care in WA State.

    New higher Tariffs from trade talks

    Blast from the past - Brexit

    Blast from the past - Brexit

    New higher Tariffs from trade talks

    API thread

    API thread

    Blast from the past - Brexit

    Blast from the past - Brexit

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Moderator:
    Insults are never ok.

    His comment, now, was quite a bit less than many loaded on him recently.

    I wish (some) posters would reduce snarking on Gordon, who is smart articulate and knowledgeable.
    He also posts factual machining stuff.

    I also wish Gordon would somewhat temper his replies.

    fwiw ..
    I did not "say", state, threaten, or order - as moderator.

    People here are exceptionally skilled, smart, often stubborn, high achievers.
    Such people deserve recognition, not silly 10-year old schoolyard disciplne.
    It is interesting that you see him in this light though.

    Given the past and current threads. Granted since you are the new moderator ( I wish you well Sir) he has reeled back his comments.

    A Eu mod for a change. That is being experienced for better or worse.

    You seem to be supportive of some over others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I don't think Gordon is emotionally capable of tempering his replies. Even if there were some "smart and knowledgeable" content in there, it's lost in the constant stream of insults.

    It's impossible to read this forum without being subjected to Gordon's juvenile behavior.

    I guess you haven't seen the pattern. Just a few recent examples:

    Recession?

    Greenland - for sale? LOL

    I've had it with Health Insurance, looked and found online Primary Care in WA State.

    New higher Tariffs from trade talks

    Blast from the past - Brexit

    Blast from the past - Brexit

    New higher Tariffs from trade talks

    API thread

    API thread

    Blast from the past - Brexit

    Blast from the past - Brexit
    I am willing to consider this. Recently he is reserved with the new mod. Whereas the past he is very provoking in his posts. I am glad he has stepped it back now,

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Disagree.
    The US pov and negotiating style is that the UK has to accept everything to get basic trade norms - in general - with the USA.

    This has been leaked at least twice re: UK trade deal and was part of the PPT for example.

    SO;
    If the UK wants to sell spare parts for Harrier jets to the US, or UK Jaguar cars, it MUST accept all the US agribusiness trade as-is with no duties, and no choice, on things like chlorine-washed chicken.
    They don't have to do anything. This is why it's a negotiation. The US wants access to the UK's market - the fact that they tend push ag exports doesn't mean at all that the UK will have to accept them. Do you honestly believe the US will completely forgo any preferential access at all if the UK doesn't accept US food standards across the board? That doesn't make any sense. Besides, TTIP already had been in negotiation - there was no "aha" moment of where the EU accepted all US food standards. The US still wants more access to markets. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    The US chicken is 20-40% cheaper than UK chicken, and will make UK chicken farming economically impossible.
    Simply because just some few wholesalers and some restaurants buying at half-price will undercut the UK farms, leading to an overnight BK-bankruptcy due to being unable to service their debts.
    I'm not sure why you say "will" be such and such way here, then later say
    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Counterpoint:
    If e.g. the US had reasonable quotas in UK chicken, and allowed a tiny (0.2-.23$/kg on 4-5$ product) fee (==5%) to balance local production, then most UK farms could adjust and adapt and not go bk.
    Your premise in the former that allowing imports of US chicken means unlimited imports is not how this is done in practice, but rather what you said in the latter. The TPP agreement had agriculture in it - Japan let down barriers. But it did not let them down completely to zero. Likewise, a UK-US trade agreement could still have what are called tariff-rate quotas that are frequently used across trade agreements and especially in agriculture.

    Secondly, there are probably already imports from the EU that have disadvantaged British farmers. This sounds like trying to play both sides of the "free trade is good" and "we need protectionism" argument. What does it matter if the ags are coming from the US or the EU? Unless you have a political bias/preference for one over the other....

    The UK already has to allow far, far more imports of EU ag exports, which are propped up by the money the UK pays into the EU budget, while simultaneously keeping out via barriers imports from the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    I did not say US chicken is bad or unsafe.
    I happily ate it endless times in the US.
    So then what is the issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    My pov is that the US negotiating tactic is terrible on endless reasons, from economics to loyalty to long-term minimax results to h&s to empowering competitors.
    It is a case of eating seedcorn and goodwill built up over 200 years.
    Ok. You could say the same about other members, including the EU itself, who all violate WTO rules/standards. One example is US v EU on beef. It's also a stark example of why the WTO is a shoddy system and how, despite whatever dumb things Trump says/does, he, again, has a point with this, and it's been something the US has been fighting over for years, just not out in the press where people knew about it. This is the sort of reason why the US admin has said it works better to have bilateral agreements and have enforcement embedded within the agreement itself. WTO cases last for years and members simply ignore the panel decisions. The WTO is a toothless tiger anyway - the only thing it can do is "authorize" a country to levy countervailing duties. Anyway, that's a whole separate topic

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    The US had 4-5x more illnesses/deaths per chicken than the EU.
    20 cases vs 5, per x qty, 100.000 iirc, more or less.
    Fact.
    5x more.
    According to US FDA stats, and EU stats, both.
    So you simply only allow those exports that meet your standards. It's pretty simple. They already do this with beef. Even with that, there are quotas/tariffs, and the EU only did this arguably because it looked bad on them.
    Non-Hormone Treated Cattle Program | Agricultural Marketing Service

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    By feeding antibiotics and hormones and chemicals to the animals, in the US, they grow fatter and bigger, faster, leading to more mass and lower COGS.
    The US chlorine wash is an attempt to clean and sterilise the carcass, that has been kept in more unsanitary conditions overall.

    The EU chickens (meat, livestock) are kept in better conditions, leading to better meat, at higher cost.

    There is a big trend in the EU for more natural free range food, free range chicken and eggs, meat, etc.
    About 30% by volume is free-range, aka higher-welfare, I think, at 10-20% incremental cost, give or take.
    For example Lidl the biggest (huge) EU discount chain only sells free range eggs, these days, and the costs are the same as past force-grown eggs.
    Same here. There's nothing saying that you can't have those standards and still more freely allow imports than the EU does, or more strictly prohibit imports on others. It's all up to what would be an independent UK. There is nothing saying the UK would have to accept US food standards. This is just political hyperbole that gets blasted because negativity/hysteria sells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123
    So you simply only allow those exports that meet your standards. It's pretty simple.
    Sounds either naive or wishful thinking! There's a whole host of trade disputes that overturn national standards, I can think of 3 here that upended quarantine requirements, 2 resulted in importation of the disease that was trying to be kept at bay. We've probably got more than a log in our own eyes here, but the US isn't exactly a shining beacon on ag access or subsidy - much like the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123
    So then what is the issue?
    Just perhaps, hanermo doesn't speak for the entire population of western Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    Sounds either naive or wishful thinking! There's a whole host of trade disputes that overturn national standards, I can think of 3 here that upended quarantine requirements, 2 resulted in importation of the disease that was trying to be kept at bay. We've probably got more than a log in our own eyes here, but the US isn't exactly a shining beacon on ag access or subsidy - much like the EU.
    Totally irrelevant to the conversation.

    The poster is suggesting US chicken is of lower health standards. I said that the UK can impose its own SPS standards for trade. There is nothing saying the UK must accept US standards. That is a fact. Where your statement fits into that, I have no idea.

    As far as "overturning" - you must be talking about the WTO. Again, refer back to what I said and the beef dispute I mentioned. They cannot force anyone to overturn anything. They can only allow equal and opposite tariffs to try to mimick an equal effect from unfair trade treatment.


    Quote Originally Posted by BillE View Post
    Just perhaps, hanermo doesn't speak for the entire population of western Europe?
    He should be able to explain what the problem is. He brought it up as an issue, then in the same breath says he didn't say US chicken was bad or unsafe. Then later says the mortality rates of chicken in the US are higher and seems to suggest this shows there is an issue with food safety to the end consumer.

    If you're not going to add anything, I don't see the point in commenting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    He should be able to explain what the problem is. He brought it up as an issue, then in the same breath says he didn't say US chicken was bad or unsafe. Then later says the mortality rates of chicken in the US are higher and seems to suggest this shows there is an issue with food safety to the end consumer.
    IIRC he said that the illness/death rate, USA versus EU, was 4-5X *worse* for the USA.

    That's highly statistically significant and shows that your food standards over the production chain from growing to slaughter to consumption are inferior to the EU standard *despite* the chlorine wash issue.

    I read country of origin labeling on foodstuffs, I won't but food sourced from China regardless of price, nor fish farm-grown in Thailand, Vietnam etc.

    Given that statistic I wouldn't buy USA sourced chicken either.

    This is one of the things a lot of us had a problem with in the fortunately defunct TPP. The USA wanted to force trade rules heavily biased in their favour down our throats including lowering existing standards to 'harmonise' with your lesser, factory-oriented ones. Fortunately Trump listened to the greedy bastards who wanted to screw us even worse and cancelled the thing. Best outcome possible there. For us.

    The USA would screw over the UK in a heartbeat. That's what you do these days. The concept of win-win died in the past.

    PDW


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