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    I was curious about these statistics about Chicken illness. I have been looking into this.

    I do think the safety issue is based on fear and protectionism. That is understandable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I won't buy food sourced from China regardless of price ...
    Not even you zi (pomelos) ? You don't know what you're missing ! THE best citrus fruit ever, mmmm

    (About the rest, not gonna get any backtalk from me. Those fish farms and stuff are nasty !)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    I was curious about these statistics about Chicken illness. I have been looking into this.

    I do think the safety issue is based on fear and protectionism. That is understandable.
    Not so sure about that. One of the posters here had in-laws that inspected for the FDA (or maybe the Ag Dep't ? I'm not up on who is in charge of that). They got so disgusted and upset that they quit and became cheese farmers. The stories kinda put me off chicken for a while. Now I just cook it extra ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    IIRC he said that the illness/death rate, USA versus EU, was 4-5X *worse* for the USA.

    That's highly statistically significant and shows that your food standards over the production chain from growing to slaughter to consumption are inferior to the EU standard *despite* the chlorine wash issue.
    Not necessarily. That's why I asked. I am not stating that I know this doesn't matter, I'm just questioning it. Maybe it does mean the end product is of lower quality; however, maybe it does not. I don't know without knowing why and how that mortality rate is higher. For example, what if they die in transport, but are then cleaned later in the process? Or what if this includes culling? What if the mortality rate is 0.1% in the EU and 0.5% in the US? Maybe when you factor for these sorts of things, it's less relevant, or irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    This is one of the things a lot of us had a problem with in the fortunately defunct TPP. The USA wanted to force trade rules heavily biased in their favour down our throats including lowering existing standards to 'harmonise' with your lesser, factory-oriented ones. Fortunately Trump listened to the greedy bastards who wanted to screw us even worse and cancelled the thing. Best outcome possible there. For us.
    Wanted to and would are two different things. Did the final agreement have this in it? As far as I know, there was only an agreement in principle, and I have no idea if there was SPS alignment. You can go over the Wikileaks TPP text and try to see - that's why I'm asking. The one thing I do remember is things regarding pharmaceuticals, and I don't think that was good. Anyway, this is not a "gotcha" rhetorical question - I'm just asking.

    Also - what do you mean "Trump listened to the greedy bastards"? The greedy bastards wanted the TPP, if by that you mean multinational corporations, etc. It was always mainly Democrats who didn't like it. Trump is more aligned with Democrats in general on the trade issue than Republicans. The rest of everything he does they generally disagree with, but Dems were always the ones talking about lowering standards, pushing bad things on other countries like pharmaceutical regulations, and losing jobs to offshoring.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    The USA would screw over the UK in a heartbeat. That's what you do these days. The concept of win-win died in the past.
    The UK can say no, just as the EU can. The fact stands that neither the UK nor EU has to accept US standards.

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    The way I have seen the handling of Chicken here has been focused on the safety of it also when it comes home. Sure it is better not to have to worry much through better processing before it reaches the consumer.

    Saying that I also must be mindful of fully cooking the chicken here and many cooks push being sanitary with handling the chicken. I can not complain at all about the difference in processing between the US and Europe. Europe seems to be much safer. The washing of Chicken here is obviously needed to protect consumers.

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    This is why I ask. They do the same thing with chicken eggs in the US vs EU. The US FDA mandates that they be washed with warm water, sanitized, dried, and then stored near freezing temp from the farm to market. The EU's FSA, on the other hand, mandates they are not washed like this, and that they are not refrigerated. Maybe you could say that one method is safer than the other - idk. I'm not a biologist or whatever. My point is that these standards differences are not only one being more lax in safety and the other being more strict. They may simply just be different for various reasons, and thus impede trade. This is part of the reason you don't see US eggs in the EU or vice-versa. It isn't only because of tariffs/quotas/subsidies, etc., and it's why product standards like this can be much more prohibitive than a simple tariff.

    On the other hand, there are things like salmonella vaccination in the UK that is required to have the red lion seal. Half to two-thirds in the US vaccinate for this anyway - you could mandate that only those which are vaccinated can export.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    This is why I ask. They do the same thing with chicken eggs in the US vs EU. The US FDA mandates that they be washed with warm water, sanitized, dried, and then stored near freezing temp from the farm to market. The EU's FSA, on the other hand, mandates they are not washed like this, and that they are not refrigerated. Maybe you could say that one method is safer than the other - idk. I'm not a biologist or whatever. My point is that these standards differences are not only one being more lax in safety and the other being more strict. They may simply just be different for various reasons, and thus impede trade. This is part of the reason you don't see US eggs in the EU or vice-versa. It isn't only because of tariffs/quotas/subsidies, etc., and it's why product standards like this can be much more prohibitive than a simple tariff.
    It should not be a forced thing at all. Friend of mine had a lot of chickens on his farm and everyone bought farm eggs from him. My wife told me once that she did not like unwashed eggs at all and when I told my friend he began washing every egg he sold. It increased his sales.

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    I think the washing thing is only for those sold in supermarkets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    My wife told me once that she did not like unwashed eggs at all and when I told my friend he began washing every egg he sold. It increased his sales.
    Whereas people who go cruising on boats search for unwashed eggs, because they keep longer ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Whereas people who go cruising on boats search for unwashed eggs, because they keep longer ...
    I would be washing them myself if he did not so I don’t have to listen to wifey complain. Maybe it also struck a vein in my friend too. It is a good practice for fresh farm eggs. It is worth the effort.

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    A CNC does not lay eggs so well.

    It can make money provided one does not go broke with one. It can happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    I was curious about these statistics about Chicken illness. I have been looking into this.

    I do think the safety issue is based on fear and protectionism. That is understandable.
    At one point in my life I was a scientist in the CSIRO here in Australia, that's our national R&D body. I spent a lot of time working on designing animal genetics databases and doing field work. We had an experimental farm with 20,000 chickens at the time, selecting for increased egg production.

    Another project I was on was building cattle feedlot software. I spent a hell of lot of time on cattle feedlots seeing how things worked and making sure the software worked for them.

    I know far more about the industrial side of food & egg production and the methods needed to suppress - note, *suppress*, not avoid - infection than I really wanted to. We had a whole section devoted to drug regimes and the withholding periods before an animal could be sent for slaughter.

    Plus food mixing and various diets to maximise weight gain & marbling in minimum time.

    There were well funded high-end operations, not some others I'm aware of.

    I don't buy meat from lot-fed animals. You can do as you choose, I've seen how it's produced up close & personal. And I'm no bleeding heart, I've personally killed thousands of animals in my earlier life as an ecologist.

    If the USA chicken production standard is such that it requires washing the carcases in chlorine based compounds to reduce bacterial problems and the rate of illness is still higher than the EU, that tells me to avoid the problem by avoiding the chicken. I'd consider an import requirement to be totally reasonable.

    Now if domestically produced chicken was chlorine washed yet imported washed chicken was forbidden, that'd be a rule set up to exclude imports and unacceptable IMO.

    FWIW I live in an Australian State where we have import quarantine rules we impose on the rest of AUSTRALIA let alone overseas countries, because we're free of certain diseases & would like to stay that way.

    PDW

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    :
    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    At one point in my life I was a scientist in the CSIRO here in Australia, that's our national R&D body. I spent a lot of time working on designing animal genetics databases and doing field work. We had an experimental farm with 20,000 chickens at the time, selecting for increased egg production.

    Another project I was on was building cattle feedlot software. I spent a hell of lot of time on cattle feedlots seeing how things worked and making sure the software worked for them.

    I know far more about the industrial side of food & egg production and the methods needed to suppress - note, *suppress*, not avoid - infection than I really wanted to. We had a whole section devoted to drug regimes and the withholding periods before an animal could be sent for slaughter.

    Plus food mixing and various diets to maximise weight gain & marbling in minimum time.

    There were well funded high-end operations, not some others I'm aware of.

    I don't buy meat from lot-fed animals. You can do as you choose, I've seen how it's produced up close & personal. And I'm no bleeding heart, I've personally killed thousands of animals in my earlier life as an ecologist.

    If the USA chicken production standard is such that it requires washing the carcases in chlorine based compounds to reduce bacterial problems and the rate of illness is still higher than the EU, that tells me to avoid the problem by avoiding the chicken. I'd consider an import requirement to be totally reasonable.

    Now if domestically produced chicken was chlorine washed yet imported washed chicken was forbidden, that'd be a rule set up to exclude imports and unacceptable IMO.

    FWIW I live in an Australian State where we have import quarantine rules we impose on the rest of AUSTRALIA let alone overseas countries, because we're free of certain diseases & would like to stay that way.

    PDW
    Interesting experience. I have a relative who has chickens and always I get free eggs when I visit. He has a very full life with them and has names for all of them.

    I thought though Ecologists were pure conservationists. Too I understand hunting has a use here in the US for healthy stock of game.

    There are a lot of wild hogs around. Friends who do this a lot actually prefer the AR 15 rifle and use it all the time. A good regular hunting rifle is fine also and costs a lot less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    :

    Interesting experience. I have a relative who has chickens and always I get free eggs when I visit. He has a very full life with them and has names for all of them.

    I thought though Ecologists were pure conservationists. Too I understand hunting has a use here in the US for healthy stock of game.

    There are a lot of wild hogs around. Friends who do this a lot actually prefer the AR 15 rifle and use it all the time. A good regular hunting rifle is fine also and costs a lot less.
    Population ecologists, when I took my degree, were the people who studied wild animal populations (including fish & marine mammals) and worked out what the harvest level was that the population could support, and the physical environment needed to be maintained to keep the population at healthy levels.

    The USA has some really first-class ecologists managing their wild animal populations, supported by hunting fees and tax revenues.

    Ditto fresh water fisheries.

    Marine fisheries OTOH are, world wide, an unmitigated litany of disaster by over-exploitation when political pressure by commercial fishers totally overrides the ecologists' recommendations on harvest levels, followed by a population crash, screams for protection, search for a new fishery, repeat until exhaustion.

    The tragedy of the commons writ large, in short.

    That's why there were 3 'cod wars' between Iceland and the UK to push the UK fleet further & further away from the Iceland fishery area because the big trawlers were wiping the fishery out. I can understand the UK's determination to get the other EU fishing fleets out of their waters, but good luck with that - too little, too late.

    As for shooting pigs, I preferred a Ruger 44 Mag for close quarters or at least a 6mm bolt rifle for longer ranges. The 223 is a kiddy toy as far as I'm concerned, good for foxes and small animals only (or slaughtering humans who can't shoot back). If I'm going to shoot something I want it to stay shot, not have to empty maybe half a magazine into it before it falls over. I once put 5 rounds of 223 FMJ through the chest of a goat at less than 50m before the thing had the decency to die.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Population ecologists, when I took my degree, were the people who studied wild animal populations (including fish & marine mammals) and worked out what the harvest level was that the population could support, and the physical environment needed to be maintained to keep the population at healthy levels.

    The USA has some really first-class ecologists managing their wild animal populations, supported by hunting fees and tax revenues.

    Ditto fresh water fisheries.

    Marine fisheries OTOH are, world wide, an unmitigated litany of disaster by over-exploitation when political pressure by commercial fishers totally overrides the ecologists' recommendations on harvest levels, followed by a population crash, screams for protection, search for a new fishery, repeat until exhaustion.

    The tragedy of the commons writ large, in short.

    That's why there were 3 'cod wars' between Iceland and the UK to push the UK fleet further & further away from the Iceland fishery area because the big trawlers were wiping the fishery out. I can understand the UK's determination to get the other EU fishing fleets out of their waters, but good luck with that - too little, too late.

    As for shooting pigs, I preferred a Ruger 44 Mag for close quarters or at least a 6mm bolt rifle for longer ranges. The 223 is a kiddy toy as far as I'm concerned, good for foxes and small animals only (or slaughtering humans who can't shoot back). If I'm going to shoot something I want it to stay shot, not have to empty maybe half a magazine into it before it falls over. I once put 5 rounds of 223 FMJ through the chest of a goat at less than 50m before the thing had the decency to die.

    PDW
    I am with you on that small caliber. I like the pistol also. They go together in my travels. I have a .357. I did not know about the cod wars. Whereas I have like you noticed overfishing in the oceans on a large scale. It reaches a crisis and then hopefully time is left to step in and have the emergency where strict measures are had to slow down the excess overfishing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post

    As for shooting pigs, I preferred a Ruger 44 Mag for close quarters or at least a 6mm bolt rifle for longer ranges. The 223 is a kiddy toy as far as I'm concerned, good for foxes and small animals only (or slaughtering humans who can't shoot back). If I'm going to shoot something I want it to stay shot, not have to empty maybe half a magazine into it before it falls over. I once put 5 rounds of 223 FMJ through the chest of a goat at less than 50m before the thing had the decency to die.

    PDW
    An AR-10 is perhaps a better match to your preference and inclinations. Staying shot is not an issue with the 7.62X51 round.

    But that is so far from the topic of this thread, as are wild pigs and ...Chickens??? . OFGS ... Can't we keep on topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    But that is so far from the topic of this thread, as are wild pigs and ...Chickens??? . OFGS ... Can't we keep on topic?
    Well, the topic is gun violence. All God's critters got feelings, ya know

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Well, the topic is gun violence. All God's critters got feelings, ya know
    BREXIT! Brexit! damn man, Keep your wits about you. People will become suspicious of your motives, intent and stability!


    Cripes! A fella can't even have a conversation any more...

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    Hulk? Wouldn't Superman be better?

    EU dismay as Boris Johnson compares himself to Hulk

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    An AR-10 is perhaps a better match to your preference and inclinations. Staying shot is not an issue with the 7.62X51 round.

    But that is so far from the topic of this thread, as are wild pigs and ...Chickens??? . OFGS ... Can't we keep on topic?
    This is the internet. Thread drift is a given. Go with the flow....

    Brexit is a great source of entertainment to me. I don't live in either the EU, the UK or RoI and I can't see any downside for my country regardless of outcome. Some minor upside on a successful Brexit possibly but nothing to get too exercised over.

    The sensible thing, *if* Brexit was going to actually happen, was to put the new border in the Irish Sea and let NI become a free trade zone of sorts. What's playing out is just noise. Either the UK will exit sans agreement and the EU will have to build & staff a RoI/NI border (or admit defeat), common sense will prevail and the border will be in the Irish Sea, the UK will revoke Art 50 or........ there'll be another extension so the farce can continue into a new season.

    Place yer bets.......

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Well, the topic is gun violence. All God's critters got feelings, ya know
    Not after you've shot them, they don't. At that point they're BBQ in the making.

    PDW


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