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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Yeah, the once great British machine tool industry had to pay the price for that. People ask me, can you still get new machines from Craven, Butler, Asquith, Swift, Kearns, Richards, DSG, Noble&Lund, Kendall&Gent, Stanley, Crowthorn, Ormerod, Cunliffe&Croom, Ward, Herbert, Churchill, Archdale, Lang, Stirk, Richmond, Snow, Pollard, Loudon, Lumsden, and all the other good British machine tool makers that I grew up working on that bit the dust when " The Iron Lady " was wreaking havoc through British industry. Well I'm sorry but the answer is no, they've all gone now, never to return. Some had been in business for 100 years, all gone in 10. Hitler and the Luftwaffe never managed to close any of them, she shut the lot.

    Regards Tyrone.
    VERY poignant words.
    There's of course people who will cite it as a conspiracy or just bad luck that it happened.
    But it's too coincidental to have happened without a plan being in place to achieve it.
    IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Theyll probably slip it out when theres something really important that we should all be worried about, just like how the Fed audit was washed away with the Debt ceiling bullshit.

    Our masters know best! Our masters know best!
    Coincidence about the UK establishment announcing late one evening that Prince Andrew wouldn't be facing any Epstein investigation?
    And the following day...London Bridge stabbing attack to fill the news...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    VERY poignant words.
    There's of course people who will cite it as a conspiracy or just bad luck that it happened.
    But it's too coincidental to have happened without a plan being in place to achieve it.
    IMHO.
    They can't have all been badly run companies all at the same time could they ?

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Coincidence about the UK establishment announcing late one evening that Prince Andrew wouldn't be facing any Epstein investigation?
    And the following day...London Bridge stabbing attack to fill the news...
    Oooh, you're starting to sound like a certain other poster now.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    They can't have all been badly run companies all at the same time could they ?

    Regards Tyrone.
    So I'm sat having my lunch and trying to find this report that I read backalong.
    And I'm reading other things regarding Thatcher and her policy at the time, and the UK deindustrialization.
    There's a couple of poignant lines here:-

    Industrial policy was moved aside via deindustrialization and ""structural unemployment" became accepted.

    Thatcher oversaw an "industrial holocaust", which saw Britain's industrial capacity decrease by fully one quarter during the years 1980–84.

    Also an attachment showing the GDP industrial growth and all counties historically doing well...except the UK...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  

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    There was a series of 3 radio programmes on Radio 4 a few years ago regarding the impact of North Sea Oil on the UK economy at that time. They contrasted the way we used that windfall with the way Norway used their North Sea oil money.

    We used it to dismantle industry, paying for the mass unemployment that ensued. They used it wisely as seed corn for investments.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    So I'm sat having my lunch and trying to find this report that I read backalong.
    And I'm reading other things regarding Thatcher and her policy at the time, and the UK deindustrialization.
    There's a couple of poignant lines here:-

    Industrial policy was moved aside via deindustrialization and ""structural unemployment" became accepted.

    Thatcher oversaw an "industrial holocaust", which saw Britain's industrial capacity decrease by fully one quarter during the years 1980–84.

    Also an attachment showing the GDP industrial growth and all counties historically doing well...except the UK...
    Exactly, she butchered British Industry purely to smash the trade unions, whom she had never forgiven for bringing down the Heath Government in the 70's

    And just like Johnson & Co will be (and any other politician) was long gone before the true effects of her actions come to light, ....a bill we are still paying, ...an will be long after my death.

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    Giving her too much credit. Three day week killed my fathers firm, no steel and no electric.
    I read up on the collapse of pearson machinery , reasons for closure were given as three day week as my fathers firm preventing a full order book being fulfilled and their skilled workforce leaving for better paid work in oil patch employment.

    Obviously she did brutal damage that can never be undone but I think it would have happened to the British machine tool industry anyway.
    Look at the usa machine tool industry, went at the same time.

    The superior modern Japanese cnc rendered traditional machinery redundant.
    Far Eastern manufacturing , list goes on

    Doesn’t matter we can bully the world with the city of London and charm them with the royals....

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Coincidence about the UK establishment announcing late one evening that Prince Andrew wouldn't be facing any Epstein investigation?
    And the following day...London Bridge stabbing attack to fill the news...
    f16d7dbf-c373-4aae-b541-76741e0d25ce.jpg
    Kinda tickled me

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    Maggie T was in power for just over 11 years & from personal experience the unions were running the country & needed to be sorted. From being a Toolmaking apprentice in the 70’s I have also seen the continual sad decline in manufacturing over nearly 50 years aided & abetted by governments of both colours, although to be fair most of it was inevitable?
    As in the USA the UK imports manufactured cheap goods from the East in vast quantities so who is going to buy expensive domestic product??
    Tony

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    The posters blaming a certain british pm for industry closures in large scale, are mostly wrong.

    Just like the closure/transformation of national airlines, national rail, national shipbuilding, etc.

    Ex:
    The (fi) national rail used to boast they use 50 people to dispatch each train.
    This obviously costs a lot of money, and some way the costs are paid in taxes.
    Today, the nr is about 3.

    The big (best in the world) shipbuilders (Kwaerner Masa Yards) had 3500 people in back-office.
    Later, they had 4.
    Been there, then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pressbrake1 View Post
    Giving her too much credit. Three day week killed my fathers firm, no steel and no electric.
    I read up on the collapse of pearson machinery , reasons for closure were given as three day week as my fathers firm preventing a full order book being fulfilled and their skilled workforce leaving for better paid work in oil patch employment.

    Obviously she did brutal damage that can never be undone but I think it would have happened to the British machine tool industry anyway.
    Look at the usa machine tool industry, went at the same time.

    The superior modern Japanese cnc rendered traditional machinery redundant.
    Far Eastern manufacturing , list goes on

    Doesn’t matter we can bully the world with the city of London and charm them with the royals....
    The company I worked at during the power cuts period " Whipp & Bourne " came through unscathed. I don't honestly know any local companies that went to the wall then.

    I'd moved on to another company by 1976. In 1979 they were booming, nowhere enough hours in the day. Two shift working, the guys on nights were working 7.00pm whilst 8.00am five nights a week. Then some of them worked through on Saturday morning whilst 12.00 mid day. Then the greedy bastards would come in on Sunday morning for another 4 hours 8.00 whist 12.00 mid day. Then repeat, back on nights on Monday night.
    .
    The company was investing in new machine tools, new overhead cranes, a new fabrication shop. Happy days were here again.

    Then months after the change of government and the arrival of Mrs Thatcher work just appeared to dry up. Redundancies were announced and the night shift was brought onto days. As a last throw of the dice an " open day " was announced to the national sector we served. We had the full range of machines running in the shop at great expensive. Fantastic amounts of food and drink were ordered for the big day.

    When the day came hardly anybody turned up and the new sales amounted to nil ! One good thing was that the lads got to get stuck into the left over food and drink at the end of the day.

    The downside of this sales failure was more redundancies and more down sizing. That was followed about 6 months later by a few more job losses. The workforce went down from 150 to 75. After that it staggered for maybe another 15 years gradually getting smaller but still on a large expensive site before closing.

    There's an ALDI on the site now.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Ive seen it all too....and there is a simpler reason...better stuff was being made cheaper in Asia......once these countries woke up to the folly of making bulk rubbish,they quicky instituted government enforced quality control on exports...As a lowest common factor...Asia is exporting cheap labour in every item......This is why Trumps tariffs make sense......if an item is made in the UK or EU,there is a substantial cost added by health care,social security ,town planning ,and so on......Trump is making the Asians pay these taxes the same as anyone working in the US.........Sooner or later ,tariffs to equalize labor costs will be universal ,otherwise labour costs will equalize at Chinese rates...which is happeneing now......My term "labour cost" includes all the add ons of the modern welfare state,non existant in China.

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    Although the company I worked for at that time manufactured their own machinery at least 50% of the work was service and overhaul of of our own and other makes of similar machinery. I'd say we were 50% a manufacturing company and 50% a service company. So in the UK the only competition we had was from two other major builders of similar machinery in the UK who weren't really into the service side. We had no competition from foreign companies and I'd say 95% of the companies business was in the UK.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    The posters blaming a certain british pm for industry closures in large scale, are mostly wrong.

    Just like the closure/transformation of national airlines, national rail, national shipbuilding, etc.

    Ex:
    The (fi) national rail used to boast they use 50 people to dispatch each train.
    This obviously costs a lot of money, and some way the costs are paid in taxes.
    Today, the nr is about 3.

    The big (best in the world) shipbuilders (Kwaerner Masa Yards) had 3500 people in back-office.
    Later, they had 4.
    Been there, then.
    Presumably you have read the list of major British companies I posted earlier, you may even have heard of some of them. Some of these companies were world leaders in their particular field, the foreign competition couldn't really compete with them in large areas of the world.

    What killed them off was a sudden collapse in the British market caused by the monetarist policies of the government of the time. How else can you explain so many large and well respected companies going to the wall in such a relatively short space of time.

    You're one of the posters on here whose views I hold in high regard. I admire your grasp of current European economic affairs but I would suggest that in this instance your analysis is too simplisic.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pressbrake1 View Post
    f16d7dbf-c373-4aae-b541-76741e0d25ce.jpg
    Kinda tickled me
    He was into boys as well?

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    The best example I can find is the rise of Japanese cars....they went from being a joke because they were 3 ft wide ,to market domination in 5 years.....take .for instance ,the first Toyota Corona and Corolla.....excellent quality at a time when British cars were pure junk,and locally made cars not far behind.....I well remember the late 60s ,you could trade in last years Corolla for twice what it cost,and be sure that the new one would also fetch more than it cost in a years time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pressbrake1 View Post
    The superior modern Japanese cnc rendered traditional machinery redundant.
    No. Inferior Japanese cnc.

    NC was invented in the US. Various American controls were far superior to the Jap crap and the machines almost all were.

    What killed US machine tool companies was a combination of things. The Japs came out with cheaper standardized machines that were available off the shelf. Cincinnati, Jones and Lamson, American Tool, K&T, Monarch all built to order. One year wait time.

    Jap machinery was crappier but lasted long enough. They started the throwaway trend "ooh, that's five years old ? Technology advances, maaan !" when that's pretty much a crock. Real advances do happen but slowly. Those early Okumas were shit. Niigata suckered Sundstrand into a joint venture, got the technology, then screwed them. This "wonderful Jap machines" thing is hogwash. What they were was, good enough, available off the shelf, and cheaper.

    Japan had the Ministry of Whatever - MITI - with full government backing to build an industry for export. The US had corporate raiders gobbling up companies that had assets greatly exceeding their stock values. Old, low-roi companies were succulent and ripe, just hanging there on the bottom branches. American Tool owned blocks of downtown Cincinnati while their stock value was pennies. The change from a manufacturing economy to a financial one was the stake through the heart.

    Agreed that most machinery companies in the US were run by doddering old fools, financially speaking. They lived in a pre-Gordon Gecko time that is now past.

    But the Japs didn't "win" by having a better product.


    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    My term "labour cost" includes all the add ons of the modern welfare state,non existant in China.
    Horse feathers. You have no idea what exists here. If anything, China has more of a welfare state than the rest of the world. They just do it differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    What killed them off was a sudden collapse in the British market caused by the monetarist policies of the government of the time. How else can you explain so many large and well respected companies going to the wall in such a relatively short space of time.
    That might have been a part of the problem but IMO a really big part was relatively old and shit products compared with what the Japanese and others were offering.

    UK cars & motor cycles being absolutely prime examples. Lucas electrics.

    The UK machine tool manufacturers may well have been building outstandingly good products but if their manufacturing customer base went out of business, they had nowhere to go (except maybe export).

    And sorry, but those old UK car, bike and other manufacturing companies *deserved* to go out of business. They had been out-engineered, out-sold and undercut on pricing.

    I still think fondly of my old 1971 Datsun 1600 sedan. The thing was just about bullet-proof, handled well and wasn't heavy on fuel. The nearest UK offering was utter rubbish in comparison.

    PDW

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    I agree with some of the last posts, but ......
    What really killed the American Machine tool industry was our "great" Pres. Reagan when he killed Americas conversion to Metric. I attended many Chicago Machine Tool Shows in those years and saw the once great US Machine Tool Industry go down the drain within 5 years. They would try to sell their inch based machines to a world that was all metric by using salesmen and technicians with no metric knowledge. Sometimes customers would stand there and laugh when being told the accuracy on this machine was within +/- 5m.
    Japan bought the drawing from US companies, changed the design (screws etc.}
    to metric and sold them all over the world. May be not the quality but fast delivery and easy to get spare metric parts. Just try to
    buy a 1/2-20 screw in Europe.


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