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  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    To get a bit on point ..
    It might be that the UK spends a net 11B per year on EU.
    Did not check,
    No. You didn't bother. Did you?

    Here's what you have overlooked.

    - Spain? Loses tourism income, expat rentals, expat property tax base, wine, cheese, produce exports that may not seem like a great deal, but are not easy to find replacement revenue streams for - if they can be replaced at all.

    - France? If you missed it, Macron's attempt to "buy off" the rioters will push their budget over the Germanic bankster's limits by about a full percentage point above that of Italy.

    - Italy? Isn't going to budge off THEIR "budget busting" line.

    - Germany? They are the buggers holding the loans. Now THEIR economy catches even a mild headcold?

    - The economies of the EU below the new "void" as the UK exits, ever-so wealthy, as just remarked, will be ABLE to rush to the rescue of Germany? Or even WANT to do?

    Just HOW and just WHY? Because Greece tells them it a a Very Good Idea, perhaps?

    And what of the rest? This is no "United States of Europe". it's an economic animal. So long as it works it works. And then not so much.

    Didja notice France could not get an EU buy-in on taxing e-transactions and data - so they will now go it alone? Suppose there might be some copy-cat effect?

    The Gilets Jaunes wouldn't give a damn about tax increases, would they?

    Whether UK Brexit DODGES a train wreck, CAUSES a train wreck, or BOTH, a train wreck there will certainly be. EU has taxed their citizens to the "dis-incentive" point if not also breaking point to fill the greed of those very same citizens for services.

    They are now to be asked to eat of their own guts. See USSR. Same cycle, different hood-badge. Politely legislate prosperity. Or simply decree it. Whatever is to be taken out still has to have been put in.

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  3. #1002
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    Nonsense.

    The EU stripped the nationalistic nihilistic local bureaucrats of a lot of their paid-for influence leading to vastly better deals for EU citizens overall.

    Some deals and laws were and are bad - and are likely to be fixed over time.
    The loss of power of local politicians paid by local big co is Very Welcome.



    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    I think we are getting nowhere.
    Again, re-read what I wrote.
    I love Europe, I love the People, I HATE THE OVERBURDEN OVERWEIGHT BEAUROCRATIC EU.
    The EU IS NOT EUROPE.
    The EU, is an out of control project which will strip all identity from each country within it, and turn them into states.
    Just like America.
    I didn't want that. And like 52% of the people, I voted NO.
    FFS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Nonsense.

    The EU stripped the nationalistic nihilistic local bureaucrats of a lot of their paid-for influence leading to vastly better deals for EU citizens overall.
    We'll agree to disagree.
    It maybe better for the poorer EU citizens, yes I fully agree. Infrastructure and housing and money has been thrown at the poorer countries.
    For the UK, the roads are appalling - crumbling, health care is critical, schooling is overloaded.
    Again as I said, what was the wealthier countries (UK being one) the living standards lower, where the poor countries rise.
    Until it all levels out.

    And seriously, if you do not think the end plan is the one major EU state (ie the United States of Europe) where each country within, is stripped to be a regional state only, please please open your eyes and do some reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Nonsense.

    The EU stripped the nationalistic nihilistic local bureaucrats of a lot of their paid-for influence leading to vastly better deals for EU citizens overall.

    Some deals and laws were and are bad - and are likely to be fixed over time.
    The loss of power of local politicians paid by local big co is Very Welcome.
    American States are well thought of here. When your countries are converted to less than a sovereign country that may become very disappointing. Seems the E.U. has morphed into something different that first agreed upon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    We'll agree to disagree.
    It maybe better for the poorer EU citizens, yes I fully agree. Infrastructure and housing and money has been thrown at the poorer countries.
    For the UK, the roads are appalling - crumbling, health care is critical, schooling is overloaded.
    Again as I said, what was the wealthier countries (UK being one) the living standards lower, where the poor countries rise.
    Until it all levels out.

    And seriously, if you do not think the end plan is the one major EU state (ie the United States of Europe) where each country within, is stripped to be a regional state only, please please open your eyes and do some reading.

    Well the comparison US of Europe is not the same . Here we have a “Congress” a House of Representatives and Senators each one has branch has representatives from each state. Congress,The President and the Supreme Court are three coequal branches of government each with their own special functions. If The EU had this then each country or state of Europe would have representation and the self interests and one lording it over another would not be so much a problem. One could not hold sway over the other by intentional design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    I think we are getting nowhere.
    Again, re-read what I wrote.
    I love Europe, I love the People, I HATE THE OVERBURDEN OVERWEIGHT BEAUROCRATIC EU.
    The EU IS NOT EUROPE.
    The EU, is an out of control project which will strip all identity from each country within it, and turn them into states.
    Just like America.
    I didn't want that. And like 52% of the people, I voted NO.
    FFS.
    Those of you wanting to get out of a united Europe (Brexit) and those wishing for a Europe made up of many independent states should take a trip around the European countries. They should stop at the military cemeteries and look! That is what happens and what will happen
    again if there is no united Europe. Look at he Balkans if you like to see an example. Bismark said: "The whole Balkans are not worth the bones of one Pomeranian Grenadier". Still true today and that scenario could play out over all of Europe again.

    It is to bad some people in GB got taken in by a bunch of Pied Pipers. Now let us hope the rest of the EU sticks together. We don't need another: "Us against you and we all against the others". Go and take a trip and visit the cemeteries and when you get there listen to the voices from the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    Those of you wanting to get out of a united Europe (Brexit)
    Get your head out into the open air.

    There IS NO UNITED EUROPE.

    The European Union is not some sort of "Nation". It is only an Ecomomic cabal AKA syndicate AKA monopoly as to trade. A customs union with syringe benefits. Addictive ones, to many.

    wishing for a Europe made up of many independent states should take a trip around the European countries.
    I have. And many more. THEY ARE independent states. They have governments, armed forces, law, tax regimes, national languages, sometimes more than one, embassies in, and treaties with nearly all other nations, USA among those.

    You have the EU confused with EUM.

    Estados Unidos Mexicanos. Thirty one states. But the EUM states have strong commonalities, cultural heritage - but not all alike, languages, law, and constitutions and are MUCH older than the EU.

    EU states do not have these things in common - not even language. Not all of them even use the EURO as currency.

    It isn't the EU as deals with war or its prevention.

    That job was left to NATO. The UK has no plans to exit NATO. See also Council of Europe. See also OECD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Get your head out into the open air.

    There IS NO UNITED EUROPE.

    The European Union is not some sort of "Nation". It is only an Ecomomic cabal AKA syndicate AKA monopoly as to trade. A customs union with syringe benefits. Addictive ones, to many.


    I have. And many more. THEY ARE independent states. They have governments, armed forces, law, tax regimes, national languages, sometimes more than one, embassies in, and treaties with nearly all other nations, USA among those.

    You have the EU confused with EUM.

    Estados Unidos Mexicanos. Thirty one states. But the EUM states have strong commonalities, cultural heritage - but not all alike, languages, law, and constitutions and are MUCH older than the EU.

    EU states do not have these things in common - not even language. Not all of them even use the EURO as currency.

    It isn't the EU as deals with war or its prevention.

    That job was left to NATO. The UK has no plans to exit NATO. See also Council of Europe. See also OECD.
    And what is the alternative?
    A united Europe can work and has worked. Longest peace period - over 70 years. You don't need to have a common language. Switzerland is doing just fine with three languages. Russia has many languages and so does China. Germany still has many dialects and there was a time when the people in northerns Germany could not understand the people in the south. Many wars between States in Germany as late as Napoleon. Just A UNITED COUNTRY SINCE 1871 and it took along time to bury the hatchet between Prussia and Bavaria. You may say they still had a common language. Not true. Try to understand someone from Switzerland if you only speak a north German dialect. The common German Language did not come about till after Martin Luther. It takes a long time to develop a feeling of belonging together, but someone has to start this togetherness. You can have cultural differences, as long as you respect each other. Anything that binds you together is better than nothing at all.
    If you traveled in Europe you must have noticed the ever increasing mix of languages. My mother would have a hard time reading a
    German Newspaper with all the English vocabulary. In Bavaria there are still many french word from Napoleons time. Go to Molsheim
    in Elsass and visit the Bugatti factory. French and German are all around. It can be done! You just have to give it a chance. Unfortunately GB took a big step backward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    The EU losses are about 1-2% short-term losses, 1-2 years only, since most losses from UK businesses will be immediately taken up by french, german, scandinavian and other providers.
    It stings but does not hurt any EU partners.

    The UK makes nothing major EU economies really need, that others cannot provide.
    You're not paying attention.

    Gemany drives the EU. Gemany lives off sales of real stuff. Thre's nobody else left in the EU to buy all the stuff Germany overproduces. France won't and the rest of them can't.

    The UK's involvement in the EU is banking. So the bankers will get slammed (I wonder why the press is so anti-Brexit Hmmm ...) but the rest of the country won't be affected much at all. Anything Germany makes can be got elsewhere. Or more likely Germany would decide "what the heck, we'll sell them our stuff anyhow."

    And then the EU would tell Germany it can't, and that would be quite interesting to watch

    You can't look at this stuff from a pure numbers perspective. Trade deals always screw over one group for the advantage of another group. You have to look at who is cutting the fat hog and who is taking it up the butt.

    Post-Brexit, that balance would change for the UK. Or more likely the bankers would find other outlets for their vicious schemes. It's easier to move money around than factories.

    England will come out on top, if they use their heads. The squealing now in the UK is because the Bank of London is lazy and likes the scams it's got. But they'll come up with new ones if they have to, believe it. And the rest of the country will be better off.

    Europe is the one that's gonna be hurting. No wonder they are being assholes. But that's a bad example to set ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    And what is the alternative?
    A united Europe can work and has worked. [Longest peace period - over 70 years.
    Calling the Third Reich 1939-1945, a lot less that 70 years - a "united Europe" is not exactly sane, and lest you forget, it was a period of War, not of peace. That is the only time since the fall of Rome or the fall of Bonaparte that the land mass of Europe has resembled "united".

    The European Union is still an economic animal with delusions of grandeur. It is not a "United Europe".

    Switzerland, BTW has FOUR official languages, not three. Swiss-German, Swiss-French, Swiss-Italian, and Swiss-Romansh (as with the others, Romansh also exists outside of CH borders). I don't speak Romansh, but have been able to read it well enough.

    CH, BTW, heavily uses a fifth language in commerce (English) as an unofficial language, but so, too much of the rest of Europe - even Germany, much to the frustration of the purists seeing German hybridized, "contaminated", marginalized and in decline.

    You sound like a casual tourist, what with inflating minor nuances on some languages groupings and deflating reality of day-to-day differences on others. Why are we not surprised? "Casual" (mis)understandings are your trademark on PM. Do your homework, willyah?

    Then again, even if you WERE to do, outside observer alternate reality has no influence on Europe's day to day nor futures.

    That is up to how the citizens of the individual countries vote. The UK in my case.

    Which one are YOU a voting member of? Germany, perhaps?

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    Finally.. some movement towards common sense!

    In no-deal Brexit, EU seeks to avoid short-term crash | Reuters

    Here's the issue, people.

    So long as the UK is neither fish-nor-fowl - not yet OUT of the EU - there will NOT be any useful agreement posited by EITHER side. That is partly because it was expected to be a unitary all-covering PACKAGE. That is not happening, is it?

    ONCE OUT, and on a 12-month set of hopefully matching - but nonetheless "unilateral" - extensions to MANY things that are "not new" and do not, after all HARM either side, THEN we can see realistic expectations come to the table AND .. get sorted ONE BY ONE.

    By BOTH "sides".

    A "no deal" Brexit need not be a "drop everything into an abyss" package after all.

    Why would it have to be, and how would either side gain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Well the comparison US of Europe is not the same . Here we have a “Congress” a House of Representatives and Senators each one has branch has representatives from each state. Congress,The President and the Supreme Court are three coequal branches of government each with their own special functions. If The EU had this then each country or state of Europe would have representation and the self interests and one lording it over another would not be so much a problem. One could not hold sway over the other by intentional design.
    Why is it that facts do not have any meaning to you?

    Do you ever research anything? Or just it appears in your head, thus it must be true?

    from wikipedia:

    Each state has representation in the institutions of the European Union. Full membership gives the government of a member state a seat in the Council of the European Union and European Council. When decisions are not being taken by consensus, votes are weighted so that a country with a greater population has more votes within the Council than a smaller country (though the number of votes in relation to population is weighted disproportionately in favour of smaller member states). The Presidency of the Council of the European Union rotates between each of the member states, allowing each state six months to help direct the agenda of the EU.[32][33]

    Similarly, each state is assigned seats in Parliament according to their population (again, with the smaller countries receiving more seats per inhabitant than the larger ones). The members of the European Parliament have been elected by universal suffrage since 1979 (before that, they were seconded from national parliaments).[34][35]

    The national governments appoint one member each to the European Commission (in accord with its president), the European Court of Justice (in accord with other members) and the European Court of Auditors. Historically, larger member states were granted an extra Commissioner. However, as the body grew, this right has been removed and each state is represented equally. The six largest states are also granted an Advocates General in the Court of Justice. Finally, the Governing Council of the European Central Bank includes the governors of the national central banks (who may or may not be government appointed) of each euro area country


    The EU is not the US, but it has "each country or state of Europe would have representation and the self interests"

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    Too pig headed, too contrarian, too lazy, too bloody STUPID, too busy trolling, to make yourself aware is no one's problem but YOUR OWN!

    look in the mirror

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    look in the mirror
    You "call BS" because you are too lazy to even Google what UK, EU, and finance industry have been publishing for the better part of a hundred years -STILL cannot be bothered - and I am the one at fault?

    Mea Culpa.

    Even I didn't expect you to WILFULLY REMAIN that foolish!


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    You "call BS" because you are too lazy to even Google what UK, EU, and finance industry have been publishing for the better part of a hundred years -STILL cannot be bothered - and I am the one at fault?

    Mea Culpa.

    Even I didn't expect you to WILFULLY REMAIN that foolish!

    You are just a loudmouth, you need to make your case, not blather on trying to get me to make it for you


    blah blah blah

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    #1006
    "Go and take a trip and visit the cemeteries and when you get there listen to the voices from the past."

    In the last twenty years I have been over two thousand times to Graveyards in the UK.
    I go to every Commonwealth War Graves Commission pattern grave I can find to pay my respects.

    What the dead say to me is "How could you admit into our homeland millions of aliens, with an alien religion, who have been trying to kill us for 1400 years? This is not what I fought for."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManicMetalBasher View Post
    #1006
    "Go and take a trip and visit the cemeteries and when you get there listen to the voices from the past."

    In the last twenty years I have been over two thousand times to Graveyards in the UK.
    I go to every Commonwealth War Graves Commission pattern grave I can find to pay my respects.

    What the dead say to me is "How could you admit into our homeland millions of aliens, with an alien religion, who have been trying to kill us for 1400 years? This is not what I fought for."
    It is not a "religion".

    You could have read their BOOK and saved the trip. Their criminal conspiracy death cult has never wavered from that goal.

    "Daesh" is just more HONEST about that, not "different".

    Join the gang to partake of the spoils. Lie, break contracts, tax, enslave, rape, loot, and murder, then once fresh-out of "infidels"?

    Do the same to cousin and brother until "ALL GONE" and expect high marks for faltering not at the exterminating of all humankind.

    There has never been any more "mystery" about it than what was created by those who chose to class it a "religion" and somehow NOT class it as much the same as Thuggee [1].

    Just read their book! Quran alone covers it. Hadith confirms it. Neither are hard to find.

    [1] And this is but a subset: Thuggee - Wikipedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    And what is the alternative?
    A united Europe can work and has worked. Longest peace period - over 70 years. You don't need to have a common language. Switzerland is doing just fine with three languages. Russia has many languages and so does China. Germany still has many dialects and there was a time when the people in northerns Germany could not understand the people in the south. Many wars between States in Germany as late as Napoleon. Just A UNITED COUNTRY SINCE 1871 and it took along time to bury the hatchet between Prussia and Bavaria. You may say they still had a common language. Not true. Try to understand someone from Switzerland if you only speak a north German dialect. The common German Language did not come about till after Martin Luther. It takes a long time to develop a feeling of belonging together, but someone has to start this togetherness. You can have cultural differences, as long as you respect each other. Anything that binds you together is better than nothing at all.
    If you traveled in Europe you must have noticed the ever increasing mix of languages. My mother would have a hard time reading a
    German Newspaper with all the English vocabulary. In Bavaria there are still many french word from Napoleons time. Go to Molsheim
    in Elsass and visit the Bugatti factory. French and German are all around. It can be done! You just have to give it a chance. Unfortunately GB took a big step backward.


    The EU has not stopped wars, how can a trade agreement stop wars.

    Germany rendered harmless to major powers, NATO and a common fear of the Russian bear has held us together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Among the places willing to bear the PRICE premium for German goods you mean.

    It isn't even difficult. It ain't wurst and pickled cabbage the UK is in dire need of.

    Germany exports hard goods. Those don't suddenly turn into rotted pumpkins on Orphan day. Benz, Bimmer, or VW, just run it 'til it packs it in. Want to take a UK factory away from the Germans? Vote labour. Nationalize the factory. Won't be new news. It's wot they do.

    Plenty of time to get replacements from elsewhere. Doesn't even have to be China.
    If it were me I could live without the cars.
    Bosch appliances and tools and hydraulics on the other hand...
    Festool and Festo pneumatics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pressbrake1 View Post
    The EU has not stopped wars, how can a trade agreement stop wars.

    Germany rendered harmless to major powers, NATO and a common fear of the Russian bear has held us together.
    OK....
    I’m sorry to jump on you, but trade does stop wars.
    Common economic interests make war too expensive to fight.


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