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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    BS...
    I’m as far from MAGA as you can get, and not shy about sharing.
    Are you running the forum? Just asking ...


    but hey, there are always alternate facts.


    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Huh? If asked a direct question (by anyone) then I'd regard it as a reason to comment - aka "answer". What I posted was what I'm thinking. No comment was necessary by you IMO.
    Gordon. My wife tends to think with her mouth open. I use earplugs when I'm trying to concentrate on something. You have a tendancy to think with your hands at the keyboard. Even the ignore function of the forum is of limited use in filtering out meaningful comment from babble.


    What stuck me from Adama's linked video, that I had not realised before and I then checked on the BBC web site, was that the entire Ethiopian Airways flight was about three minutes long and that it seems to have had problems within 10 seconds of take off. With the best will in the world, that's going to give the aircrew a lot more stress in an already busy situation.

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  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    As I said, it seems weird a trim element could over ride the primary control surfaces.
    Not realy do to the dynamics of flight, the reason they trim with the entire horizontal bit is it is very very efficient aerodynamically. Equally on a plane full of people, if you end up with the rear seats full of shall we say larger people and the front full of smaller ones + variance in cargo, you can end up needing to make a lot of additional lift with the tail or a lot less lift if the weight shifts the other way.

    Trying to do that with just a flap on the rear of a wing - rear of the horizontal needs a big control movement and at that point your then getting lot of drag.

    Got to remember a plane is not a car, were to trim to straight you only need a small correction, in flight everything is very much balanced on a knife edge front to back, you have to generate every single gram of force to balance that weight, that needs far more force at the ext reams of loading than the unbalancing force you need to get the rates of movement you need in a plane to control it. Hence why trim has to have so much more control authority - control power than the flight controls. Which is why i found it so strange one of the previous posters claiming other wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    ...Hence why trim has to have so much more control authority - control power than the flight controls. Which is why i found it so strange one of the previous posters claiming other wise.
    What I said is that the pilot can overcome the stick pusher, but it takes effort. And that the trim position does not affect control column travel. I also noted that the combination of the MCAS trimming down, along with the stick pusher may be too much for the pilots to overcome.

    No aircraft that is badly out of trim is easily controlled- not even a Cessna 182. Trimming for any given speed and altitude is necessary on all aircraft.

    The video said this: At the time of impact, the horizontal stab was at the full nose down trim position. That's all it said, and the maker of the video is not on the investigative team, was not there, and does not have any first hand information. So you might want to cool your jets a little, cowboy.

    The jackscrew controls the trim, meaning the AOA of the horizontal stab. It has an electric motor that is operated by the trim switch on the control yoke, and another one that the autopilot controls. There are also cables that go from the trim wheels in the cockpit to the jackscrew for mechanical trim adjustment.

    The elevators are what the control yoke moves, They are hydraulic powered, and if the horizontal stab is out of position by more than the elevators can correct, they are not going to alter the flight path. That's why there are mechanical wheels and electric trim switches on the control yoke to adjust the horizontal stab- that's how the pilot adjusts that jackscrew so that the control column force is neutral in level flight.

    The question is why the pilots did not follow the procedures for the uncontrolled trim condition, or if they did, why it failed. The automatic trim is easily shut off, and the manual trim wheels control the jackscrew directly.

    Also why were they unable to gain altitude- according to that video they never made it above 1000 feet AGL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    ...What stuck me from Adama's linked video, that I had not realised before and I then checked on the BBC web site, was that the entire Ethiopian Airways flight was about three minutes long and that it seems to have had problems within 10 seconds of take off.
    That's what got my attention too. They basically rotated right into a stall at about 300 feet above the ground, and just barely recovered from that.

    Was the plane even correctly configured for takeoff?

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    Asiana ......with an instructor in the cockpit !

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    That's what got my attention too. They basically rotated right into a stall at about 300 feet above the ground, and just barely recovered from that.

    Was the plane even correctly configured for takeoff?
    Hmmm...
    I bet the manifest is in the mix too.
    Weight distribution?

    The overall machine might just be a little twitchy...like a super car with no traction control.

    Dunno.
    I guess we’ll read the report in a year...see the documentary six months later.

    I wonder how long the grounding will last?
    Sooner or later Boeing is going to run out of places to park the new builds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    ...I wonder how long the grounding will last?
    Sooner or later Boeing is going to run out of places to park the new builds.
    They're allowed ferry flights, they'll be parking them at Boeing Field and Everett I imagine.

    BEA's looking at the FDR now, I imagine we'll have some preliminary findings pretty quick. The final report- who knows.

    The Lion air flight was 2 minutes into the flight before they started having problems. The Ethiopian flight wasn't even able to climb out. Addis Ababa is a high-altitude airport- 7600 ft. MSL. Hot day, density altitude was probably over 10000 feet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    The question is why the pilots did not follow the procedures for the uncontrolled trim condition, or if they did, why it failed. The automatic trim is easily shut off, and the manual trim wheels control the jack-screw directly.

    Also why were they unable to gain altitude- according to that video they never made it above 1000 feet AGL.
    Yes because all the data so far shows they had plenty of air speed, all most raises the question if there's another element to this, is the jack screw locking at full travel or some how breaking, is there some kinda electrical fault too? Something else that locks the pilots out from recovering this. Does the auto bit some how end up in some kinda fault - cause something else that eliminates the pilots manual and cut off control options on this? IE some kinda short or something that still provides power to the trim system and bridges the electrical disconnects?

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    All this reminds me of something I saw on telly years ago.....Boeing contractor was supposed to be drilling rivet holes with a CNC mill,but was doing the holes with hand drills..............at assembly ,the holes didnt line up,so the assemblers just drilled more holes ....with hand drills......Some bulkheads had multiple unused holes..........somehow missed in quality inspections and maintenance inspections........NOT........if you picked out the fault and held up production,you were fired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Sooner or later Boeing is going to run out of places to park the new builds.
    Well then, Rozen is in good hands, now that you're there with him to hold his ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    That's what got my attention too. They basically rotated right into a stall at about 300 feet above the ground, and just barely recovered from that.

    Was the plane even correctly configured for takeoff?
    This is pure speculation but it seems to me that the flight path characteristics are similar in nature to the problems an airframe has when the C.G. is moving in flight or a C.G. to far astern.

    A lot of times pilot error always goes to the top of the list, then mechanical failure or mechanical problems but the actions of the ground crew or just human ignorance can create situations that even the most skilled pilot or the best engineered system can not cope with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    This is pure speculation but it seems to me that the flight path characteristics are similar in nature to the problems an airframe has when the C.G. is moving in flight or a C.G. to far astern.
    You think it was loaded with Ukrainian mail order brides and they all ran to the back to wave bye-bye ?

    A long time ago they ran semi-cargo 747's to China - the back third was cargo and there was a door. Usually locked.

    But one flight I saw this guy who kept going through the door, then coming back out. He was checking on the horses Seriously, they had about ten horses on the plane. Could have got ugly if they freaked out and started kicking ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    This is pure speculation but it seems to me that the flight path characteristics are similar in nature to the problems an airframe has when the C.G. is moving in flight or a C.G. to far astern.

    A lot of times pilot error always goes to the top of the list, then mechanical failure or mechanical problems but the actions of the ground crew or just human ignorance can create situations that even the most skilled pilot or the best engineered system can not cope with.
    Seems to me it wouldn’t be that hard to instrument the landing gear for weight distribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    That's what got my attention too. They basically rotated right into a stall at about 300 feet above the ground, and just barely recovered from that.

    Was the plane even correctly configured for takeoff?
    This is my thought

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    You think it was loaded with Ukrainian mail order brides and they all ran to the back to wave bye-bye ?

    A long time ago they ran semi-cargo 747's to China - the back third was cargo and there was a door. Usually locked.

    But one flight I saw this guy who kept going through the door, then coming back out. He was checking on the horses Seriously, they had about ten horses on the plane. Could have got ugly if they freaked out and started kicking ...
    I could see if someone brought a bunch of dogs yet horses are mush bigger they could totally lose composure once they realize they are on a Jet plane with two pilots flying to China.
    I bet once they might learn that or just be frightened by the confined space, the noise , and the strange movements then they could start bucking. That is a scary scenario.

    Oh well at least there is lots of Horse tranquilizers.

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    The global news reported satellite data showing erratic up/down movements on both aircraft.
    Perhaps the same, similar, for a similar reason.

    Similar reports from pilots in the recent past in a us database for issues.

    Where the potential for harm is great, much prudence is indicated.

    In this case for boeing, I see a coverup, of an innocent mistake.
    US multinationals are notorious for these, in all fields.
    And little real liability.

    Obviously Boeing can and will fix the issue if it is in the sw.
    A quick-fix might take only weeks.

    The base problem is US tort law and stock market driven decisions, where the issues are secondary to the financials and perceived news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I could see if someone brought a bunch of dogs yet horses are mush bigger they could totally lose composure once they realize they are on a Jet plane with two pilots flying to China.
    I bet once they might learn that or just be frightened by the confined space, the noise , and the strange movements then they could start bucking. That is a scary scenario.

    Oh well at least there is lots of Horse tranquilizers.
    They fly them in creates not disimalr to horse boxes. Really common in the race horse industry lots get flown into and out of the uk all the time. had a girlfriend that use to be involved in the horse racing industry and whilst she just delt with stabling them and training them here in the uk, they very much spend a lot of there lives in transit between different venues by all means of transit. Supposedly once they get use to it its kinda like us humans it just becomes another day at the office and whilst they can sedate them they really try not too as it makes them more inclined to fall over and supposedly that's the biggest issue with horses in transit.

    They did "blinker?" them so they could not see too much and they also had horse ear muffs for them, (assumed the horse ear muffs was a wind up too till i was shown them) So they did not get too easily startled.

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    I looked at the altitude and speed charts in Adama's video, and if accurate, tell this story:

    1. Normal takeoff, but degraded rate of climb due to altitude, heat, etc. See the comparable plots form other takeoffs that day.
    2. Something bad happens @ ~100 seconds into the flight, ~500' AGL and ~250 kts
    3. Airplane drops rapidly, recovers, then climbs steeply.

    The chart data ends there.

    The most significant data, IMO, is the abundance of airspeed -- steady rise through 300 kts. Not what you would see in a stall or impending stall condition.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    [QUOTE=hanermo;3329715]The global news reported satellite data showing erratic up/down movements on both aircraft.
    Perhaps the same, similar, for a similar reason.

    Similar reports from pilots in the recent past in a us database for issues.

    Where the potential for harm is great, much prudence is indicated.

    quoteIn this case for boeing, I see a coverup, of an innocent mistake.
    US multinationals are notorious for these, in all fields./quote
    And little real liability.

    Obviously Boeing can and will fix the issue if it is in the sw.
    A quick-fix might take only weeks.

    The base problem is US tort law and stock market driven decisions, where the issues are secondary to the financials and perceived news.
    I do not believe Boeing is covering up really. I know it is easy to be suspicious. Boeing is a very large and successful company and to get that way they make good/superior (other opinions noted) product.

    Not sure how US tort law would be a problem here. Every country has their tort law. For the victims agreement is I heard yet have no cite that the victims have a agreed upon cap for payment to families. That way there is not a bunch of lawsuits when this happens.


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