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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    I'm not sure that a 737 could rotate at 93 knots at 7300 feet above sea level.
    Remember, that data is SOG. I've seen Cessnas try to fly that were not even moving at all. A good windstorm, a plane that isn't tied down properly...

    A tail-heavy 737 could get the nose off the ground at below stall speed, and still not be able to actually get airborne. In an extreme case, you could load it so it did a wheelie sitting still.

    One of my college buddy's dad was a 747 test pilot. He had a picture of him doing a minimum takeoff test at Boeing Field. Dragging a titanium skid down the runway, sparks flying, nose in the air, his dad looking out the side window with a big shit-eating grin on his face.

    The data we are looking at is what the news refers to as "enhanced satellite data", and it should be taken very lightly.

    I still can't post the FR chart, but I emailed it to myself and will try again when I get home.

    edit: tried again from my home computer, still not able at post an attachment.
    Last edited by jancollc; 03-16-2019 at 10:35 PM.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    Weight and balance problem? Load shift?

    I read the flap limit speed for flaps 1 & 5 is 250 knots so they might have still had T/O flaps so that would rule out MCAS...
    Their problems began well below the speed where the flaps would have automatically retracted, but (at least in theory) they did reach a speed that would have retracted the flaps and possibly allowed the MCAS to enable.

    Takeoff is normally done at 1 or 5, which are just extensions of the flaps and slats. The 737NG is certified to takeoff with flaps up to 25, but there is a big drag penalty. They were at high altitude, they may have taken off with more flap, the FDR will have that info.

  3. #223
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    If the manual overide is electronic, not hydraulic or cables the fault may not be bypassable - assuming this plane is all fly-by-wire.

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    I haven't kept up on this thread so forgive me if this has been thrashed to death above, but to be clear, I made some significant errors in my first threads, but one thing I got right was that Boeing really, really fucked up.
    I do in fact love the 737 Max, that is one sweet, sweet teal green riveted aluminum tube that I was really looking forward to flying on, so this is in no way a hit in general on the brand, but I am going to say that there was a reason "corporate" made these decisions, and that is purely for marketing advantage.

    they were in a fight with Airbus for the next gen fuel efficient short/medium haul airframe, and they made the horrible choice to prioritize "requires NO new training" over safety. the comment to the "tipster' line maintained by NASA that the lack of a requirement for that training bordered on criminally negligent says it all.

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  6. #225
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    There is still a lot that needs to be checked out. I never have seen that Boeing is not stepping up to their responsibilities. I see a lot of one side view and the other still. Criminally negligent is serious and doubt that is a reality and so far that is not proven. The suggestions short of a legal charge is only accusatory. That term implies they knew what was wrong and did it anyway.

    I doubt that Boeing had a "wanton disregard for human life" . Could be something else but what can it be based upon at this time? It needs investigation and many are still saying that there was not any good reason to ground all these planes. Still they are saying that and someone else says different. So what we have are two points of view neither one settled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I see a lot of one side view.
    Yes and most of it is coming from you. You started off OK as a moderator but you've gone back to posting on everything under the sun.

    Make up your mind if you want to be a moderator or not. Learn from those that are moderators.

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  9. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Yes and most of it is coming from you. You started off OK as a moderator but you've gone back to posting on everything under the sun.

    Make up your mind if you want to be a moderator or not. Learn from those that are moderators.
    He's doing just fine, maybe this topic is something that really interests him. I too am interested in this but I'd rather wait then speculate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    ... they made the horrible choice to prioritize "requires NO new training" over safety. the comment to the "tipster' line maintained by NASA that the lack of a requirement for that training bordered on criminally negligent says it all.
    You could have possibly said this before the Lion Air crash. However, that crew that crashed was preceded by a crew that had the problem and overcame it AND reported it. In writing.

    So.

    If this Ethiopia thing is similar, so sad too bad but after an airliner crashes losing the aluminum can and all aboard, then it is a responsibility for all remaining commercial pilots and air lines to read the fine manual.

    So you could claim that prior to Lion Air, Boeing was somewhat at fault for not stressing the new features (although the first crew managed fine) but after that, no way Jose.

    Although this Ethiopia crash is beginning to sound more and more like sheer stupidity than Boeing's failure to insist on training ...

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    Spinit, you need to wind your neck in before the moderator, GBC bans you. He has warned you more than once.

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  13. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Yes and most of it is coming from you. You started off OK as a moderator but you've gone back to posting on everything under the sun.

    Make up your mind if you want to be a moderator or not. Learn from those that are moderators.
    Get over yourself Gordon. I am just joining in. You only quote a few words of what I wrote.
    Spinit
    "I see a lot of one side view and the other still. Criminally negligent is serious and doubt that is a reality and so far that is not proven." This is tellling about your posts directed to me moderating . It draws attention to your motive which is never thought well of by most everyone.

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  15. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    Spinit, you need to wind your neck in before the moderator, GBC bans you. He has warned you more than once.
    Thanks for the warning this is what he does with everyone all the time. He is set that way as he harangues a lot.
    T

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  17. #232
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    I agree with plastikdreams, Sprint you are doing just fine.

    "You started off OK as a moderator but you've gone back to posting on everything under the sun." My first thought was that Gordon's statement would make him a perfect choice for moderator based on this standard however ...

    Dave

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  19. #233
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    I am trying. I will continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I am trying. I will continue.
    Yeah Gordon's saying your very trying!

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  22. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You, and others, obviously didn't get the point I was trying to make and it depends I suppose on what the role of a moderator is.

    A moderator IMO (and I stress IMO) avoids getting involved in debates and discussions (not always possible) and concentrates on ensuring a nuanced debate and discussion without unnecessary "animosity".

    The "animosity" dropped after spinit became moderator but is (again IMO) returning and increasing. Too many of spinit's posts are more biased than informative just as they were in his pre moderator days.

    What I'm doing with Brexit now is to bide my time and see what happens. Same here with Boeing. If this post gets "attacked" then it just goes to prove I'm right.

    The theme or purpose of this sub forum "manufacturing-in-america-and-europe" is IMO fading rapidly.
    Gordon,
    You always do this. That is what is clear. You need to stop the attacks.

    G

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  24. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Gordon,
    You always do this. That is what is clear. You need to stop the attacks.

    G
    I rest my case!

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  26. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I rest my case!
    I think people are telling you that you don't have a case.

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    Yes exactly . Gordon, you are simply raising cane here. Quoting partial quotes of mine and then complaining is simplistic nonsense, You are subversive and a distraction when you persist in this. I have explained this to you because it is so strange that you persist that it deserves mention.

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  30. #239
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    [QUOTE=Spinit;3330265]
    I doubt that Boeing had a "wanton disregard for human life" .

    Based on *what*. Yes they are a long-established manufacturer. Yes companies like
    that fuck up all the time, exhibiting exactly 'wanton disregard.' You have absolutely
    no data to make that conclusion.

    From 20 feet away this is exactly how it looks. Wanton disregard for the folks they
    buried in shoeboxes there was so little left.

  31. #240
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    [QUOTE=jim rozen;3331101]
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I doubt that Boeing had a "wanton disregard for human life" .

    Based on *what*. Yes they are a long-established manufacturer. Yes companies like
    that fuck up all the time, exhibiting exactly 'wanton disregard.' You have absolutely
    no data to make that conclusion.

    From 20 feet away this is exactly how it looks. Wanton disregard for the folks they
    buried in shoeboxes there was so little left.

    I regard the wonton well...especially the soup


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