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Thread: Boeing 737 Max

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    All this said, I would always want to fly in a Boeing over a Scarebus.
    So how do you feel about Tupolevs ?

    A while back about half the airliners in China were rooski. They had nice seats, so at least you'd be comfy when the wings came off

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  3. #262
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    Looks like FBI is getting involved:

    Boeing Tumbles After FBI Joins Criminal Probe Into 737 MAX Approval | Zero Hedge

    "A story by the Seattle Times over the weekend detailed how FAA managers pushed its engineers to delegate more of the certification process to Boeing itself, sparking confusion just what the FAA's role actually is, and whether it delegated its own duties to the "supervised" company in exchange for kickbacks. The Times story also detailed flaws in an original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA.

    As the newspaper adds, "criminal investigations into the federal oversight of airplane manufacturing and flight are rare, in part because of the longstanding belief that a civil-enforcement system better promotes candid reporting of concerns without fear of criminal repercussions.""

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Also, Boeing didn't "self-certify" the MAX.
    FBI joining criminal investigation into certification of Boeing 737 MAX | The Seattle Times

    This

    A Seattle Times story on Sunday detailed how FAA managers pushed its engineers to delegate more of the certification process to Boeing itself. The Times story also detailed flaws in an original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA

    Well if they didn't self certify, they certainly did more certification of their own plane than the FAA should have allowed them to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    They conducted the risk assessment. which at the time was considered low because the MCAS did not have much pitch authority.
    I think they did a lot more than just a risk assesment
    Last edited by triumph406; 03-21-2019 at 04:07 AM.

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  6. #264
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    If you guys solve machining problems the same way you do airplane crashes, I'm sure glad I don't work in any of your shops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    J, it is my understanding that bad AOA data can spawn two roughly simultaneous things in the 737MAX -- MCAS activation, AND stick shaker. To wit, the Lion Air pilots were confronted by 2 pieces of feedback -- (1) stick shaker signaling impending stall, and (2) auto trim, with the trim wheel going nose down. I suspect that most pilots would consider #1 the highest priority and would act RFN to remedy that, namely increase power and push the nose over. With MCAS "helping" by trimming the entire horizontal stabilizer nose-down, that can make for a pretty severe net pitch change.
    The pilots only job in that situation is to fly the plane. All pilots practice stall recoveries, it is probably the most routine emergency procedure they do.

    The copilot should be calling out airspeeds and altitudes, determining if the stall warning is valid, and checking the QRH for the correct response.

    What you don't want them to do is look at each other and ask "what the hell is going on?"

    Ultimately the manufacturer can make the planes really hard to stall, which has consequences. A330's have a similar system, which prevented the pilots from applying control inputs that would result in a stall. Then they had Quantas 72, so Airbus changed the control law. Now the plane is stallable- a year later AF447 stalled out from 38,000 feet and never recovered.

    Nothing is foolproof. Training and the correct crew response are the only way to avoid crashing airplanes.

    Maybe modern jets are too easy to fly. It's a boring, routine job 99.999% of the time, but the other 0.001% it's an emergency.

    edit to add: figured out how to post pics again- this is the satellite data for ET302 that shows nose off the ground at 93 KTS. If it displays too small to read you will have to save the image to your computer and view it in a graphics viewer.

    et302.jpg
    Last edited by jancollc; 03-21-2019 at 01:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Looks like FBI is getting involved:

    ...
    The article says
    The investigation, which is being overseen by the U.S. Justice Department’s criminal division and carried out by the Transportation Department’s Inspector General, began in response to information obtained after a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crashed shortly after takeoff from Jakarta on Oct. 29, killing 189 people, Bloomberg reported earlier this week, citing an unnamed source.

    It has widened since then, with the grand jury issuing a subpoena on March 11 for information from someone involved in the plane’s development, one day after the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 near Addis Ababa that killed 157 people, The Associated Press reported this week.
    The DOT IG only has authority to investigate agencies within the DOT. That's where his jurisdiction ends. The bolded part is what I would question. The IG can make criminal referrals to the DOJ, but the DOJ cannot oversee an IG investigation because IG's are not DOJ employees. IG's cannot bring criminal charges against a defendant.

    So if the story is correct- either the IG made a criminal referral of someone in the FAA, or the DOJ opened a separate criminal investigation of Boeing- e.g if someone at the FAA claims Boeing bribed an FAA official, you can open a criminal investigation of Boeing. There has to be a predicate.

    IG's have administrative subpoena power, but they can't empanel a grand jury.

    The idea that the DOJ is overseeing an investigation by an IG doesn't make sense. If both the IG and DOJ are involved, I think they have to be separate investigations.

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    FWIW: NY Times: "Doomed Boeing Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Company Sold Only as Extras"

    Doomed Boeing Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Company Sold Only as Extras - The New York Times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    FWIW: NY Times: "Doomed Boeing Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Company Sold Only as Extras"

    Doomed Boeing Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Company Sold Only as Extras - The New York Times
    I don't know about ET302, but the reporting of the Lion Air crash says they knew there was both AOA and IAS mismatches, so that plane presumably had the disagree indicators...

    I'm a little surprised with the full court press against Boeing before the investigations are even completed.

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    Guilt by association?

    Boeing had no control over what he said- and does it matter that what he said was true?

    Lockmart has a long history of lowballing bids and then jacking the hell out of the job after it's awarded. F-35, LCS, etc.

    Boeing doesn't do that, and they have delivered every single Super Hornet ahead of schedule, and at or below the estimated cost.

    I don't want favoritism in contracting, but I am not sure that his comments rise to the level of any kind of ethical violation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    FBI joining criminal investigation into certification of Boeing 737 MAX | The Seattle Times

    This

    A Seattle Times story on Sunday detailed how FAA managers pushed its engineers to delegate more of the certification process to Boeing itself. The Times story also detailed flaws in an original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA

    Well if they didn't self certify, they certainly did more certification of their own plane than the FAA should have allowed them to do.



    I think they did a lot more than just a risk assesment
    They will know soon enough right? Did you notice there were no real sources sited in the article and then the writer does a smoke screen talking about other instances he wants to liken this situation from the past? This is basically a format to throw Boeing into a spotlight. It is a established and old tactic.

    "Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter."

    :The FBI’s support role was described by people on condition of anonymity because of the confidential nature of the investigation."

    "Representatives of the Justice Department, the FBI and Transportation Department declined to comment, saying they could neither confirm nor deny an investigation. Boeing declined to comment."

    Especially with the news media one has to be careful with what we read. It is like validating a job we get in.

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    [QUOTE=Spinit;3332276]... This is basically a format to throw Boeing into a spotlight.

    Not needed. Boeing is doing a fine job on its own.

  18. #273
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    [QUOTE=jim rozen;3332382]
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    ... This is basically a format to throw Boeing into a spotlight.

    Not needed. Boeing is doing a fine job on its own.
    You are right on that account because whatever they do there is always this kind of thing. Since I see that same type of thing with the writing I will say the writer felt the need to use that. No verifiable sources.


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