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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    The general consensus in the airline industry is that Boeing builds a better plane than Airbus...over time they require less maintenance and are more robust.

    If not for preferential financing (subsidized by European governments), Airbus would not have the market share they do in North America.

    So, Boeing isn’t going anywhere...
    I'm not following the "general consensus" but find these links interesting. You don't know Boeing is subsidized?

    Airbus vs Boeing: Which comes out on top and what does the future hold?

    Competition between Airbus and Boeing - Wikipedia

    Is Boeing or Airbus Better? We Asked an Airline Pilot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    I had six years in the right seat of the B767 and ten in the left seat of the A319/320/321.

    Ask any "real" pilot and they'll tell you that Boeing is a much more intuitive interface. When shit goes off the rails you want simple, not complex.

    I have a theory about the basic Airbus design. In the early 80's there were a lot of emerging third world countries that were buying lots of airplanes. I believe Airbus tried to design an airplane that would effectively "fly itself" to cater to those markets. In doing so they actually complicated things to the point of effectively taking the driver out of the loop - and they have the crashes to prove it.

    The side stick was nice tho, except for the jokes about Bus drivers having nothing between their legs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    I had six years in the right seat of the B767 and ten in the left seat of the A319/320/321.

    Ask any "real" pilot and they'll tell you that Boeing is a much more intuitive interface. When shit goes off the rails you want simple, not complex.

    I have a theory about the basic Airbus design. In the early 80's there were a lot of emerging third world countries that were buying lots of airplanes. I believe Airbus tried to design an airplane that would effectively "fly itself" to cater to those markets. In doing so they actually complicated things to the point of effectively taking the driver out of the loop - and they have the crashes to prove it.

    The side stick was nice tho, except for the jokes about Bus drivers having nothing between their legs...
    You ruined your point for me with "Ask any "real" pilot".

    So any pilot that doesn't agree with you isn't good? Some years ago I was boarding a commercial aircraft and noticed, as did others, that the pilot was female. Some expressed concern. I remarked that I was more than OK with that as she'd probably have to have been better than most male pilots to get the job.

    Long live bias!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post

    I have a theory about the basic Airbus design. In the early 80's there were a lot of emerging third world countries that were buying lots of airplanes. I believe Airbus tried to design an airplane that would effectively "fly itself" to cater to those markets. In doing so they actually complicated things to the point of effectively taking the driver out of the loop - and they have the crashes to prove it.
    I heard this was their goal too (late '80's by memory when I worked in the flight recorder company). De-skill and dumb it all down.
    Exactly the same thought to machining/cellular manufacture - just get machine loaders and a button pusher.
    All fine and dandy, until something goes wrong...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You ruined your point for me with "Ask any "real" pilot".
    16 years of being in the hot seat flying round the world interfacing with numerous other pilots and co-pilots and training schools and blah blah blah gives the guy *some* credibility to me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    16 years of being in the hot seat flying round the world interfacing with numerous other pilots and co-pilots and training schools and blah blah blah gives the guy *some* credibility to me...
    I wasn't questioning his credibility. What I was questioning was why that comment ("Ask any "real" pilot") was thought necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    I had six years in the right seat of the B767 and ten in the left seat of the A319/320/321.

    Ask any "real" pilot and they'll tell you that Boeing is a much more intuitive interface. When shit goes off the rails you want simple, not complex.

    I have a theory about the basic Airbus design. In the early 80's there were a lot of emerging third world countries that were buying lots of airplanes. I believe Airbus tried to design an airplane that would effectively "fly itself" to cater to those markets. In doing so they actually complicated things to the point of effectively taking the driver out of the loop - and they have the crashes to prove it.

    The side stick was nice tho, except for the jokes about Bus drivers having nothing between their legs...
    As a bystander it looks to me that Boeing have gone down the same route.

    It's a bit like the CNC v Manual lathe operators debate. How many CNC jockeys could jump on a big old Centre Lathe, grind a screw cutting tool out of an old flat file and put a thread on the end of a big shaft ?

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Me at least !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I wasn't questioning his credibility. What I was questioning was why that comment ("Ask any "real" pilot") was thought necessary.
    I meant the only guys/gals I flew with that preferred the computer laden/push button Airbus philosophy over the much simpler Boeing way of doing business were the geeks. And most of them had little talent.

    "Oh, look at this, did you know it can do that". I didn't give a feck about all the magic, I just wanted to know "Why's it trying to kill me?". "This time?".

    We didn't call it Christine for nothing...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You ruined your point for me with "Ask any "real" pilot".
    It was pretty obvious he meant "as opposed to some dork from Denmark on the Internet who feels compelled to mouth off about things he does not understand."

    But that probably went over your head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    I meant the only guys/gals I flew with that preferred the computer laden/push button Airbus philosophy over the much simpler Boeing way of doing business were the geeks. And most of them had little talent.

    "Oh, look at this, did you know it can do that". I didn't give a feck about all the magic, I just wanted to know "Why's it trying to kill me?". "This time?".
    you're only making things worse. I don't like flying but I do reasonably often. In your opinion any pilot that prefers an Airbus to a Boeing is a geek?

    What's the safest plane in the world?

    There are 10 major commercial jet aircraft that can claim to be the world's safest after never recording a passenger fatality, according to Boeing.

    The Safest Aircraft in the World
    Boeing 717 (formerly the MD95)
    Bombardier CRJ700/900/1000 regional jet family.
    Airbus A380.
    Boeing 787.
    Boeing 747-8.
    Airbus A350.
    Airbus A340.

    Mar 11, 2019

    The Boeing 747 was my favourite until the Airbus 380 came along. Maybe I've just been lucky but the flight in a 380 always feels just a bit "smoother". More room too. To me all others are "just planes".

    Of course I'm not a pilot so I just hope that whatever I'm flying in, lands where and when it's supposed to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Clarke View Post
    Quit being a troll.Attachment 261626
    Did you mean "quit being a troll dearest"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Clarke View Post
    Quit being a troll.
    It's pretty low when someone tries to use the wife or a similar relative when bagging on another poster. "Mrs" Clarke should be ashamed, but clearly isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    It's pretty low when someone tries to use the wife or a similar relative when bagging on another poster. "Mrs" Clarke should be ashamed, but clearly isn't.
    I'm wondering if or when the "moderator" will react. First time could have been funny but that was while ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    You ruined your point for me with "Ask any "real" pilot".
    Funny, but I understood exactly what he meant. And it made perfect sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bucktruck View Post
    Funny, but I understood exactly what he meant. And it made perfect sense to me.
    Then explain it to me. What's a "real" pilot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Then explain it to me. What's a "real" pilot?
    Sully.
    And to add the reasoning...by memory...
    He instantly knew he had one chance and only one place to put the bird down. The "to do" list was long and I believe the first thing he did was turn on the APU because he knew he'd be needing it.
    Although it was around #10 on the list...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Sully.
    And to add the reasoning...by memory...
    He instantly knew he had one chance and only one place to put the bird down. The "to do" list was long and I believe the first thing he did was turn on the APU because he knew he'd be needing it.
    Although it was around #10 on the list...
    Actually, Sully did not have a procedure for what he encountered. There was nothing in the A320 manual for both engines out below 10,000 feet.

    There is now...

    The A320 has a drop-down turbine generator that deploys when all power is lost. It had deployed on Sully's plane. Also note that the plane's stall prevention was working to counteract Sully's control inputs- he would have otherwise stalled out before landing in the river.

    Replaying it in the simulator, they determined that he would have made it back to the airport if he had turned around immediately. I'm not saying he should have- no one can make that call who wasn't there.

    Ultimately what saved those passengers was the combination of a top-notch pilot and the planes automation which kept the jet controllable all the way down.

    The Quantas A380 that I mentioned before is a real study case for doing everything right. For that crew to keep their cool and work through what they had to deal with was just phenomenal.

    What I think Terry was alluding to earlier is something we have seen all too often. That is, a not very experienced crew gets behind the airplane, and tries to use the automation to get out of trouble. That almost always ends in disaster. China 140.

    ET302, the captain kept trying to engage the autopilot, it kept kicking out...

    wanna see something wild

    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    What I think Terry was alluding to earlier is something we have seen all too often. That is, a not very experienced crew gets behind the airplane, and tries to use the automation to get out of trouble. That almost always ends in disaster. China 140.
    Please do me a favor and use the complete name. That was China Air, a Taiwan company. Air China is the remains of Pan Am and has an excellent safety record, excellent pilots and is owned by the People's Republic of China. China Air is the Taiwan national airline and has a terrible safety record.

    The confusion is intentional. Taiwan spent fifty years pretending to be China. The last person executed for saying Taiwan was an independent country was in 1980. (And the first elections ever held in democratic Taiwan bastion of freedom were in 1996. What's fifty years among friends ?) The story has changed but the facts have not yet disappeared down the memory hole.

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    It's just been on the radio over here that " Boeing " are considering halting production of the 737 Max. I suppose they must be running out of space to store completed aircraft and running out of money to keep building them without being able to sell them. It also mentioned they had made a pretty hefty financial loss but I missed the details of just how much.

    Regards Tyrone.

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