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Thread: Boeing 737 Max

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    It's just an FAA requirement that the control column pressure has to increase as the AOA increases. MCAS was added to the Speed Trim System to do that, which is why it's only active during manual flight.
    In other words a cosmetic FAA requirement crashed two planes and killed a bunch of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Rob, Just please... Fuck-Off!
    We already have Rozen and Triumph(something) championing for the spot, and they are way ahead of you.
    Good grief, who shit in your wheaties this morning? If you cant see what I wrote as comedy value then you just need to lighten up a bit. Lord knows this thread needs a little lightening up now and then.
    I dont want to think that you took what I wrote about skewering geese on delicate sensors and cooking them while still in flight, as a serious comment, but reading your reaction makes me wonder?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Yes but would you want stuffing Rob ? Do you have stuffing in the USA ?

    Regards Tyrone.
    Yes we do have stuffing, love that stuffing There is a good posibility that more stuffing will be made and eaten here in USA next Thursday on Thanksgiving holiday than the rest of the world in a year...

  4. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    In other words a cosmetic FAA requirement crashed two planes and killed a bunch of people.
    I don't think I would put it that way, my limited experience flying- the FAR requirement is a specification that follows how most GA aircraft behave. It's intuitive to pilots that the harder you pull back on the yoke, the more you expect the airplane to pitch up.

    Thing is, it should also be intuitive for a 737 driver to hit the yoke trim switch if the control column pressures are indicating an out of trim condition. That switch interrupts the MCAS- I just have trouble understanding how the pilots could let the jet get so far out of shape as they did. Seems to me that by the second or third time you had to do it, you would recognize the automatic trim is misbehaving.

    One of the points made both in Congressional hearings and by the accident investigators, was that Boeing's assumptions of the pilot reaction were not good. That goes directly to the risk assessment of the MCAS system. If the pilots acted the way Boeing assumed, they would have never got into trouble.

    But they didn't- and that meant the risk assessment was not sufficient to mitigate the hazard of a sensor failure and the system has to be more fault-tolerant. Easy enough to recognize in hindsight, but it illustrates that humans are not always that predictable.

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    I wish I had a better memory but the above is exactly the line of reasoning the FAA investigator who stops in my shop presented.
    The human reactions were outside of predicted parameters..

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I don't think I would put it that way, my limited experience flying- the FAR requirement is a specification that follows how most GA aircraft behave. It's intuitive to pilots that the harder you pull back on the yoke, the more you expect the airplane to pitch up.
    Just because it's always been that way ? Therefore a 2019 787 needs to behave just like a 1914 Jenny ?

    People running video games have no problem with zero feedback - and video games are good enough to teach a Seattle baggage handler to take off and fly - without crashing, might I add (He did in the end but that was on purpose.)

    In this case it's an outmoded requirement, which caused two planes to augur in (more or less. The idiot pilots did not help.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    The human reactions were outside of predicted parameters..
    Right. If you make it foolproof, they will always find a better fool. Maybe, just maybe, they should restrict flying commercial passenger planes to people who have a clue ?

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    “ Maybe, just maybe, they should restrict flying commercial passenger planes to people who have a clue ?”

    I honestly don’t think that is the take home message here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    I honestly don’t think that is the take home message here.
    So you are in favor of putting your life in the hands of a moron because the software is supposed to be infallible ?

    Thanks, but no thanks.

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    Whether you like it or not, this plan will fly soon

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Whether you like it or not, this plan[e] will fly soon
    Holy cow. A glitch in the internets. This message was posted about three months ago, and
    it *just* got here. Was the poster actually doing this for the former CEO of boeing?
    Translation: Any Day Now.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Just because it's always been that way ? Therefore a 2019 787 needs to behave just like a 1914 Jenny ?

    People running video games have no problem with zero feedback - and video games are good enough to teach a Seattle baggage handler to take off and fly - without crashing, might I add (He did in the end but that was on purpose.)

    In this case it's an outmoded requirement, which caused two planes to augur in (more or less. The idiot pilots did not help.)


    Right. If you make it foolproof, they will always find a better fool. Maybe, just maybe, they should restrict flying commercial passenger planes to people who have a clue ?
    In the documentary I mentioned earlier the two pilots flying the simulator were old enough to have grey hair and one was British and the other American. To be honest they didn't look or act like pilots who didn't have a clue.

    What appeared to have done for them more than anything else was the limited amount of time they had to react when all hell was letting loose on the flight deck.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    In the documentary I mentioned earlier the two pilots flying the simulator were old enough to have grey hair and one was British and the other American. To be honest they didn't look or act like pilots who didn't have a clue.
    They were not flying an airplne. They were flying a simulator. A simulator runs on software. Did you happen to notice otrt's message above ? The one that apparently spent three months flailing around the internet ? Software, mmm good and trustworthy when it says what we want, bad software, bad bad when we want to blame Boeing for the sun rising in the east.

    Do you remember the exploding pickup trucks ? The terribly dangerous ones that ABC was going to save us from ? The ones they were so concerned about that they wired explosive charges to the tanks, just to help us appreciate the outrageous dangers of those trucks ? Good thing, too, I always wire explosives to my gas tank, just in case someone runs a red and I want to explode.

    If you keep your eyes open, you quit believing any of the media's shit.

    Did you read the actual accident reports and pay attention to what those buffoons were doing ?

    Facts speak for themselves. None of these planes have crashed in the hands of United or Delta or Cathay Pacific or Air China or Lufthansa.

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    And yet it was thought necessary to ground the entire fleet until the problem could be fixed. Still grounded...

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  17. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    And yet it was thought necessary to ground the entire fleet until the problem could be fixed. Still grounded...
    And Ralph Nader killed a perfectly good automobile which only required some driving skill, and the press mauled Ford for having a car that caught fire when you parked in the fast lane right over the crest of a hill so that no one going 80 could see you until kerboom ! and ABC tried to do the same thing to GM pickups but got caught and now nc machines have so many interlocks you can't even do setups and and and ...

    The fact that the public is stupid doesn't really mean much

    Read the report. The guys were morons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    They were not flying an airplne. They were flying a simulator. A simulator runs on software. Did you happen to notice otrt's message above ? The one that apparently spent three months flailing around the internet ? Software, mmm good and trustworthy when it says what we want, bad software, bad bad when we want to blame Boeing for the sun rising in the east.

    Do you remember the exploding pickup trucks ? The terribly dangerous ones that ABC was going to save us from ? The ones they were so concerned about that they wired explosive charges to the tanks, just to help us appreciate the outrageous dangers of those trucks ? Good thing, too, I always wire explosives to my gas tank, just in case someone runs a red and I want to explode.

    If you keep your eyes open, you quit believing any of the media's shit.

    Did you read the actual accident reports and pay attention to what those buffoons were doing ?

    Facts speak for themselves. None of these planes have crashed in the hands of United or Delta or Cathay Pacific or Air China or Lufthansa.
    Yes I read the reports. Very interesting and revealing at the same time. However the documentary was also revealing.
    I agree with your point that previously to the grounding there had been thousands of successful flights.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    ...However the documentary was also revealing.
    So what was the name of this documentary? I keep hearing it referenced, but I don't know what we're talking about.

    If it's put together by the NTSB or BEA, or by the FAA or EASA- it's probably accurate. If it's put together for a TV show- it's probably not. There are all kinds of parameters that have to be programmed from the crash flights- you would need the FDR data from the crashed planes to run a simulation of the flights- which a TV show would not have access to.

    There are only a handful; of 737 MAX simulators in existence- Air Canada has one, Boeing has one. The company that builds them- CAE in Montreal has one they use for training. They are building more, and Southwest and American have ordered them, but they aren't delivered yet.

    Airlines have been using 737NG simulators for training MAX pilots.

    So when I hear about a "documentary" that shows what you guys are saying, I have to be a little skeptical- it's easy to sensationalize something for TV ratings, but that doesn't mean it's realistic.

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    “ So you are in favor “....

    These planes crashed due to a airframe design defect with an inadequate software fix.

    I am “in favor” of avoiding such design defects which place flight crews into a win or lose crisis with lives at risk on the outcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    They were not flying an airplne. They were flying a simulator. ....
    It's a small point but they were actually not flying the sim. They were crashing it. You may call that a fine point
    and I concede that. Not flying. Crashing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    So what was the name of this documentary? I keep hearing it referenced, but I don't know what we're talking about.

    If it's put together by the NTSB or BEA, or by the FAA or EASA- it's probably accurate. If it's put together for a TV show- it's probably not. There are all kinds of parameters that have to be programmed from the crash flights- you would need the FDR data from the crashed planes to run a simulation of the flights- which a TV show would not have access to.

    There are only a handful; of 737 MAX simulators in existence- Air Canada has one, Boeing has one. The company that builds them- CAE in Montreal has one they use for training. They are building more, and Southwest and American have ordered them, but they aren't delivered yet.

    Airlines have been using 737NG simulators for training MAX pilots.

    So when I hear about a "documentary" that shows what you guys are saying, I have to be a little skeptical- it's easy to sensationalize something for TV ratings, but that doesn't mean it's realistic.
    It was called " Boeing's Killer Plane; What Went Wrong ? " It gave the impression they had access to all the flight details. During the film of the simulator flights they kept cutting away to a US female attorney that apparently specialises in representing the families of air crash victims. She was taking the viewers through the FDR print outs step by step, so she definitely had access to them.

    Regards TYrone.

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