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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    So what was the name of this documentary? I keep hearing it referenced, but I don't know what we're talking about.

    If it's put together by the NTSB or BEA, or by the FAA or EASA- it's probably accurate. If it's put together for a TV show- it's probably not. There are all kinds of parameters that have to be programmed from the crash flights- you would need the FDR data from the crashed planes to run a simulation of the flights- which a TV show would not have access to.

    There are only a handful; of 737 MAX simulators in existence- Air Canada has one, Boeing has one. The company that builds them- CAE in Montreal has one they use for training. They are building more, and Southwest and American have ordered them, but they aren't delivered yet.

    Airlines have been using 737NG simulators for training MAX pilots.

    So when I hear about a "documentary" that shows what you guys are saying, I have to be a little skeptical- it's easy to sensationalize something for TV ratings, but that doesn't mean it's realistic.
    It was called " Boeing's Killer Plane; What Went Wrong ? " It gave the impression they had access to all the flight details. During the film of the simulator flights they kept cutting away to a US female attorney that apparently specialises in representing the families of air crash victims. She was taking the viewers through the FDR print outs step by step, so she definitely had access to them.

    Regards TYrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    It was called " Boeing's Killer Plane; What Went Wrong ? " It gave the impression they had access to all the flight details. During the film of the simulator flights they kept cutting away to a US female attorney that apparently specialises in representing the families of air crash victims. She was taking the viewers through the FDR print outs step by step, so she definitely had access to them.

    Regards TYrone.
    Maybe that's an updated version of that show. "Boeing's Killer Planes!"- I would call that more of an "expose" than a documentary- they begin with their conclusion and go from there...

    I just watched it on the computer and didn't see any simulator shots past the opening scenes. I didn't see any scenes with British or American pilots struggling in the simulator.

    This is what I watched:

    Boeings killer Planes (2019) Panorama Documentary - video dailymotion

    The FDR traces that are made public are a tiny portion of the FDR data. You could program a simulator to mimic the crash flight from that, but it would be just that- a simulator programmed to crash.

    To accurately recreate what the pilots actually experienced, it would have to be done on the simulator at Boeing that has all the software updates. That machine (in theory) accurately represents the forces on the manual trim wheels and the MCAS responses. There are no other simulators outside of Boeing that do that currently, because the updates have not been certified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Can you watch that?

    I went through the registration just for that, and when I tried to watch it said it could not be played in the US due to licensing restrictions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Can you watch that?

    I went through the registration just for that, and when I tried to watch it said it could not be played in the US due to licensing restrictions?
    You may need a VPN and log into the country of origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    You may need a VPN and log into the country of origin?
    I'm not going to jump through a bunch of hoops for no reason.

    If the footage referenced is in the link I posted of that BBC program, please tell me where it can be found so I can see what we're talking about. I can view that link- it's just the BBC one that I can't see.

    If the BBC link has additional footage that's not in the other link, maybe I'll try harder. Or maybe I just missed the part I was looking for- I don't know. I don't want to sit though a bunch of BS looking for something that doesn't exist.

    I just want to see the video of the experienced US and British pilots who were unable recover the plane...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I'm not going to jump through a bunch of hoops for no reason.

    If the footage referenced is in the link I posted of that BBC program, please tell me where it can be found so I can see what we're talking about. I can view that link- it's just the BBC one that I can't see.

    If the BBC link has additional footage that's not in the other link, maybe I'll try harder. Or maybe I just missed the part I was looking for- I don't know. I don't want to sit though a bunch of BS looking for something that doesn't exist.

    I just want to see the video of the experienced US and British pilots who were unable recover the plane...
    Channel 4 has nothing to do with the BBC matey. It's an independent organisation. The film I referred to had both pilots struggling with the controls before losing control. They simulated both flights. The simulator pilots set out to fly a normal flight and were then confronted with the same conditions that the real pilots were confronted with in real time. The outcome was exactly the same as in the real flights. You must have watched another programme. The attorney was pointing out the flight profile on the print outs, how the aircraft was going up and down and what control inputs were causing that.

    Regards Tyrone

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post

    To accurately recreate what the pilots actually experienced, it would have to be done on the simulator at Boeing that has all the software updates. That machine (in theory) accurately represents the forces on the manual trim wheels and the MCAS responses. There are no other simulators outside of Boeing that do that currently, because the updates have not been certified.
    Updates? What were all of the pilots that have flown the Max-8 trained on? Did they all use the Boeing simulators?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    Updates? What were all of the pilots that have flown the Max-8 trained on? Did they all use the Boeing simulators?
    Wasn't one of the selling point of the max plane that it needed no new training? Better to compete with the new Airbuss as they needed no new training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Can you watch that?

    I went through the registration just for that, and when I tried to watch it said it could not be played in the US due to licensing restrictions?
    Sorry, I was going to watch it this evening, I just saw the red play arrow on the screen and ...ASSumed...
    I just now tried to watch and no, I cannot either, not without registering and after seeing you had no luck might not bother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    Updates? What were all of the pilots that have flown the Max-8 trained on? Did they all use the Boeing simulators?
    Pilots that needed MAX simulator time went to CAE, Boeing, or one of the other training centers that had a MAX or NG simulator. Air Canada has one, so their pilots could train on their own simulators.

    Pilots who were already rated for 737NG had only to do the difference training, which did not require simulator time. The runaway stabilizer procedure was always part of the 737NG training- it wasn't new to the MAX.

    The company that makes the MAX simulator said they have orders for 47 new machines, which is like 5 times the number that existed worldwide before the crashes. We don't know if the FAA is going to mandate simulator training when the jet goes back into service, but the airlines apparently are planning on it, based on all these orders for new simulators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    ...The film I referred to had both pilots struggling with the controls before losing control. They simulated both flights. The simulator pilots set out to fly a normal flight and were then confronted with the same conditions that the real pilots were confronted with in real time. The outcome was exactly the same as in the real flights. You must have watched another programme.
    Can you scan the link I posted? I'm just trying to figure out if there's something missing in that program- I didn't see anything like what you are talking about.

    But it was only 28 minutes and it didn't have the subtitle- I'm wondering if that was something that got added later...

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    Boeing's Killer Plane: What Went Wrong? - All 4

    To watch it outside the UK you can use the anonymoX extension and select the UK in the country drop down.

    anonymoX - Chrome Web Store

    Haven't watched it yet...

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    About the 13:00 mark is where the simulator sequence starts.

    Sorry, it's nothing but sensationalized drivel, driven by the lawsuit.

    It shows the "experienced" pilots doing exactly the same wrong things the crash pilots did instead of the correct and sensible action of doing the runaway trim drill from memory and turning off the cutout switches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    About the 13:00 mark is where the simulator sequence starts.

    Sorry, it's nothing but sensationalized drivel, driven by the lawsuit.

    It shows the "experienced" pilots doing exactly the same wrong things the crash pilots did instead of the correct and sensible action of doing the runaway trim drill from memory and turning off the cutout switches.
    I thought in the second flight the pilots did turn off the cut out switches before turning them back on again as a last resort ?

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    These planes crashed due to a airframe design defect
    And you know that how, exactly ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    I thought in the second flight the pilots did turn off the cut out switches before turning them back on again as a last resort ?
    They oughta be happy it wasn't ABC .... probably would have wired explosives to the trim switches as an "enhancement".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    I thought in the second flight the pilots did turn off the cut out switches before turning them back on again as a last resort ?

    Regards Tyrone.
    I didn't watch it that far but if so that's another completely wrong reaction to the problem.

    I can't say for sure about the Max but any other Boeing I've been on (727, 767) once the memory drill is done (turn off the switches) you do the checklist which tells you to open the circuit breakers and use the manual hand wheel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    I didn't watch it that far but if so that's another completely wrong reaction to the problem.

    I can't say for sure about the Max but any other Boeing I've been on (727, 767) once the memory drill is done (turn off the switches) you do the checklist which tells you to open the circuit breakers and use the manual hand wheel.
    I need to watch this again to be definitive but from what I recall of the second simulator flight the pilots definitely turned off the MCAS at one point. Later on they were really struggling to physically turn the handwheel. As a last resort they turned the MCAS back on but it was too late. I'd really like a practising pilot to watch the film as I'm only a layman who's never been nearer to a cockpit than when I exit the aircraft through the front door.

    To be honest that's as near as I want to be also.

    I honestly have no axe to grind on this, I just want to have a pleasant flight and walk off the plane at the end of the flight. Where the plane is made - I couldn't care less.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    These planes crashed due to a airframe design defect
    And you know that how, exactly ?
    Even before all this chaos, Boeing had to reluctantly admit the new larger, high-efficiency engines the airlines were demanding create nose-up flying attitudes at certain speeds and conditions on the 737Max. This is because the huge engines had to be mounted higher up and more forward on the wings...a compromise necessary to use the existing 737 airframe (as it sets really low on the runway).

    And contrary to the belief Boeing did this solely to avoid having to certify an all-new airframe, they also did it to get the planes into service with the new engines as soon as possible. Why?

    Well, Airbus was selling the shit out of new A320's with the new engines, the airlines loved the power and fuel efficiency.

    So Boeing could either rush an old design into service, or lose hundreds (if not thousands) of plane orders to Airbus while they designed and built an entirely new plane.

    Boeing should have told the airlines straight up "If you want a 737, you get one with a current engine design. If you insist on the new engines, it's gonna take about 5 years to get you a good plane."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    I need to watch this again to be definitive but from what I recall of the second simulator flight the pilots definitely turned off the MCAS at one point. Later on they were really struggling to physically turn the handwheel. As a last resort they turned the MCAS back on but it was too late. I'd really like a practising pilot to watch the film as I'm only a layman who's never been nearer to a cockpit than when I exit the aircraft through the front door.

    To be honest that's as near as I want to be also.

    I honestly have no axe to grind on this, I just want to have a pleasant flight and walk off the plane at the end of the flight. Where the plane is made - I couldn't care less.

    Regards Tyrone.

    No worries, just trying to help explain what happened.

    In the second accident (Ethiopian 302), the pilots left the power at full (takeoff) thrust the whole time. When they finally hit the cutout switches they were 25K faster than the maximum speed of 340K "The speed, meanwhile, was producing such large aerodynamic forces on the tail that the manual trim wheel lacked the mechanical power to overcome them, and the trim was essentially locked into the position where the MCAS had left it — not fully nose-down, but dangerously out of whack."

    Instead of pulling the power back to slow down (flying 101), they turned the stab cutout switches back on again activating the MCAS to the point of no return. Hate to Monday morning quarterback but in both crashes the crew grossly mismanaged the situation.

    If you want the highest probability to "walk off the plane at the end of the flight" try not to fly on deep discount or sketchy third world airlines...

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