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Thread: Boeing 737 Max

  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    No worries, just trying to help explain what happened.

    In the second accident (Ethiopian 302), the pilots left the power at full (takeoff) thrust the whole time. When they finally hit the cutout switches they were 25K faster than the maximum speed of 340K "The speed, meanwhile, was producing such large aerodynamic forces on the tail that the manual trim wheel lacked the mechanical power to overcome them, and the trim was essentially locked into the position where the MCAS had left it — not fully nose-down, but dangerously out of whack."

    Instead of pulling the power back to slow down (flying 101), they turned the stab cutout switches back on again activating the MCAS to the point of no return. Hate to Monday morning quarterback but in both crashes the crew grossly mismanaged the situation.

    If you want the highest probability to "walk off the plane at the end of the flight" try not to fly on deep discount or sketchy third world airlines...
    Did the simulator pilots in the film faithfully follow the actions of the original pilots ( complete with their mistakes ) or did they fly the simulator using their own initiative ( thus making their own mistakes ) ? I got the impression that the two pilots flew the simulator doing their own thing.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    “ And you know that how, exactly ? ”

    I have spoken directly with a FAA investigator who stated that which I subsequently confirmed by researching the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Did the simulator pilots in the film faithfully follow the actions of the original pilots ( complete with their mistakes ) or did they fly the simulator using their own initiative ( thus making their own mistakes ) ? I got the impression that the two pilots flew the simulator doing their own thing.

    Regards Tyrone.

    Looked to me like they were copying the actions of the doomed crews, then the "narrative" made a point of showing how the aircraft was unrecoverable. Well ya, when you screw up so bad you paint yourself into a corner like that even a Cessna 150 pilot will auger in.

    Again, I see sensationalized propaganda no doubt driven by class action law suits. The law firms are doing a fantastic job BTW, I wonder if they'll top the US$2 billion award in the Monsanto/Roundup case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    Again, I see sensationalized propaganda ....
    And I see an airplane still grounded. That's a sad fact and it is NOT due to any
    percieved propaganda. There's a lot of hand-wringing and fainting couch activity
    here, that does no good. Boeing made some mistakes and they are in the shit.
    With skill and luck they may turn the company around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    I have spoken directly with a FAA investigator who stated that which I subsequently confirmed by researching the issue.
    And Linus Pauling, a Nobel Prize winner, was firmly convinced that vitamin C was the cure for everything, including cancer.

    My dockmate was a training pilot for Canada Air and he stated exactly the opposite.

    Pawn exchange .... how about thinking for ourselves, based on evidence, for a change ? Supposed to be machinists here, not basket-weavers.

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    “My dockmate was a training pilot for Canada Air and he stated exactly the opposite. “

    While we are “thinking for ourselves” yet another Boeing error was over reliance on their own pool of test pilots to validate the assumptions on which the software “fix” was based.
    Boeing fucked this one up and the FAA held their hand while they did it.
    At this point the only useful exercise is carefully counting just how many errors they made so as to defend the aviation industry from similar problems in the future.
    That process is ongoing:

    https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attac...A_Oct_2019.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post

    These planes crashed due to a airframe design defect with an inadequate software fix.

    I am “in favor” of avoiding such design defects which place flight crews into a win or lose crisis with lives at risk on the outcome.
    Boeing 737 MAX Pilots Had No Idea What They Were Up Against > ENGINEERING.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Keeley View Post
    Looked to me like they were copying the actions of the doomed crews, then the "narrative" made a point of showing how the aircraft was unrecoverable. Well ya, when you screw up so bad you paint yourself into a corner like that even a Cessna 150 pilot will auger in.

    Again, I see sensationalized propaganda no doubt driven by class action law suits. The law firms are doing a fantastic job BTW, I wonder if they'll top the US$2 billion award in the Monsanto/Roundup case?
    I can't see any point in following the actions of the pilots involved in the crash. How could you expect a different outcome ?

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    I can't see any point in following the actions of the pilots involved in the crash. How could you expect a different outcome ?

    Regards Tyrone.
    Makes for great TV and fodder for future lawsuits tho don't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    .. how about thinking for ourselves, based on evidence, for a change ? Supposed to be machinists here, not basket-weavers.
    Better idea: why not actually get the sock puppet you keep parading around to actually post here and tell us what he
    really thinks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Better idea: why not actually get the sock puppet you keep parading around to actually post here and tell us what he
    really thinks.
    Where is "El Gordo" when you really, really need him/her ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Where is "El Gordo" when you really, really need him/her ?
    I wonder how many people have you on ignore now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    While we are “thinking for ourselves” yet another Boeing error was over reliance on their own pool of test pilots to validate the assumptions on which the software “fix” was based.
    Exactly. Boeing assumed that a person at the helm of a multi-million dollar vehicle with several hundred people onboard would be capable of flying. Experienced, even.

    Obviously that was a mistake in these cases. They should have designed a foolproof plane, so that fools could fly it.

    Unfortunately, that scenario has never worked in the past, but some people still put their faith (and the word is used on purpose) in miracles.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Better idea: why not actually get the sock puppet you keep parading around to actually post here and tell us what he really thinks.
    Why don't you shove it up your ass, you ignorant twit ?

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    Wasn't the engines too far forward so they could avoid making the undercarriage a bit longer?. If the plane wings were a bit higher above ground, the engines would be in the correct position, eliminating the need for MCAS in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    Wasn't the engines too far forward so they could avoid making the undercarriage a bit longer?. If the plane wings were a bit higher above ground, the engines would be in the correct position, eliminating the need for MCAS in the first place.
    That sounds like a radical re-design to me. Maybe they'd have been better off starting with a clean sheet of paper.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    That sounds like a radical re-design to me. Maybe they'd have been better off starting with a clean sheet of paper.

    Regards Tyrone.

    I think it was more of a type certificate issue and also marketing: longer undercarriage would require more testing not to mention changes in ground equipment for boarding the aircraft with now higher doors. They had to get the 737 ready fast to compete with newer Airbus A319NEO/A320 NEO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    Wasn't the engines too far forward so they could avoid making the undercarriage a bit longer?. If the plane wings were a bit higher above ground, the engines would be in the correct position, eliminating the need for MCAS in the first place.
    a better question would be to ask if the AOA sensor disagreement system, that 80k$ optional extra mentioned few pages back, that lets the computers know that the 2 sensors are not telling the same thing, would have let MCAS realize on its own that something is off and it wouldn't have to rely on just one sensor data for making such critical decisions

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    a better question would be to ask if the AOA sensor disagreement system, that 80k$ optional extra mentioned few pages back, that lets the computers know that the 2 sensors are not telling the same thing, would have let MCAS realize on its own that something is off and it wouldn't have to rely on just one sensor data for making such critical decisions
    There are many reasons that wasn't how it was implemented, mainly it seems to get it to market fast and so pilots wouldn't need extra training on the MAX. The marketing department appear to had priority over the design department. There are US military aircraft that have three angle of attack sensors to have redundancy if one goes faulty in flight, the plane can still safely operate by shutting down the sensor that disagrees. I'd speculate that three sensors would have been the design department's preference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    I wonder how many people have you on ignore now?
    Hopefully you....

    Do you require assistance in accomplishing your task ?

    Maybe call I.T.

    Or I.T.T, if so inclined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAG 180 View Post
    There are many reasons that wasn't how it was implemented, mainly it seems to get it to market fast and so pilots wouldn't need extra training on the MAX. The marketing department appear to had priority over the design department.
    Well they sure got it to market fast, but it seems like the marketing department did not have to deal with the fallout
    the way the CEO did. Penny wise and Pound foolish is the apparent approach.

    BTW we're still waiting for the 'friend of a friend of a friend' sock puppet who is all-knowing and all-seeing super airmanship
    puppet to weigh in here with his own wisdom. I will be glad to be enlightened.


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