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  1. #1241
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    I worked at McDonnell-Douglas in the early 90's on the MD12 program that was supposed to compete with the 747.

    Best place I've ever worked, got laid off when they cancelled the MD12.

    One recurring theme from the old timers there was that Douglas had never been the same after being acquired by McDonell. Culture changed and not for the better. It would seem the same has been said for the Boeing/McDonell merger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Our mate seriously looked up and said lets put bigger engines on it then :facepalm:
    Luigi ! We shoulda bought a bigger truck !

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Oh, they're "mistakes" now but when Boeing shit on all their employees, moved to Chicago, sent three-fourths of the work overseas to "maximize shareholder value" they were a forward-looking, tough competitor making the necessary changes to compete in this modern world.

    When are these slimeballs who write for magazines going to face the fact that profit is not the only thing that counts ? Also the guys on Wall Street who own and operate the US?

    Or if it is the only thing that counts, you're going to have a lot of bodies lying alongside the road. We better get used to that and accept it as a product of shareholder value.

    Maybe it was Mum augured in going home after Thanksgiving but oh well, stock price is up. Made thirteen bucks a share on Boeing last year, sorry Mom but it's just business.
    Yup....it's already "all penciled out" they have a standard price per body, and have done the risk analysis.

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    DOH!

    Boeing released more than 100 pages of documents to Congress on Thursday detailing internal messages that reveal how, during certification of the 737 MAX, company employees spoke of deceiving international air safety regulators and Boeing’s airline customers, and successfully fought off moves over several years to require anything but minimal pilot training for the new airplane.

    Boeing apologizes as internal memos reveal how workers spoke of deceiving regulators, airlines | The Seattle Times

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    Looks like the ripple effect has already begun...

    Boeing 737 Max supplier Spirit Aerosystems to cut 2,800 jobs

    Hope those that are affected get thru this okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    DOH!

    Boeing released more than 100 pages of documents to Congress on Thursday detailing internal messages that reveal how, during certification of the 737 MAX, company employees spoke of deceiving international air safety regulators and Boeing’s airline customers, and successfully fought off moves over several years to require anything but minimal pilot training for the new airplane.

    Boeing apologizes as internal memos reveal how workers spoke of deceiving regulators, airlines | The Seattle Times
    Oopsie…..The NPR news report also quoted Boing stating that they will
    be disciplining the e-mail authors....

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  8. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Oopsie…..The NPR news report also quoted Boing stating that they will
    be disciplining the e-mail authors....
    Some of the emails are quoted in my newspaper today. They make a really disturbing read. We're all engineers of one type or other on this site. I suspect none of us would be able to remain silent if we knew a product we'd worked on could be life threatening in certain circumstances. I'm pretty sure I couldn't.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Boeing apologizes as internal memos reveal how workers spoke of deceiving regulators, airlines | The Seattle Times

    from the article

    One exchange related to Indonesian airline Lion Air is particularly chilling.

    In June 2017, a month after the first MAX was delivered to Malindo Air, a Malaysian subsidiary of Lion Air Group, one Boeing pilot wrote to another during an instant message exchange about how Lion Air was asking for a flight simulator to train its pilots on the MAX.

    Maybe because of their own stupidity,” he wrote. “I’m scrambling to figure out how to unscrew this now! idiots”

    “WHAT THE F%$&!!!!,” the second pilot responded. “But their sister airline is already flying it!”

    The first pilot responded that he’d asked for a teleconference with the civil-aviation authority of Indonesia, which is called DGCA.

    “Not sure if this is Lion’s fault or DGCA yet,” he wrote.

    The names of the pilots are redacted, though in one instance the name slipped through: Patrik Gustavsson, the deputy lead technical pilot on the MAX program. The other pilot is identifiable by his title in multiple emails as Mark Forkner, at the time chief technical pilot on the MAX.

    The two pilots were working to develop the flight simulators and to determine the pilot training that would be required for a pilot to move from the previous 737 model to the MAX.

    In an internal email that same day, Forkner, wrote “I’m putting out fires with [redacted name] who suddenly think they need simulator training to fly the MAX.”

    The following day, Forkner forcefully argued in an email to someone in Jakarta, Indonesia, headquarters of Lion Air, that “There is absolutely no reason to require your pilots to require a MAX simulator to begin flying the MAX,” he wrote. “Boeing does not understand what is to be gained.”

    Forkner asked what the Indonesian regulator DGCA was requiring. He argued that the regulatory authorities in the U.S., Europe, Canada, China, Malaysia and Argentina had all accepted that only a short course of computer-based training was necessary.

    The hard sell worked. On June 7, the airline official wrote back to accept Boeing’s position. Forkner promptly emailed a colleague within Boeing: “Looks like my jedi mind trick worked again!”

    ADVERTISING
    Forkner later described how he sent an email to the DGCA listing all the airlines and regulators that accept the computer-based training rather than simulator training for the MAX, “to make them feel stupid about trying to require any additional training requirements.”

    The first MAX crash that killed 189 people the following year was a Lion Air jet in Indonesia.


    Thw whole saga will be an HBO or Showtime series soon I bet, Boeing is pretty much writing the script for them, maybe Patrik Gustavsson and Mark Forkner could be story and script consultants, unless their in jail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Some of the emails are quoted in my newspaper today. They make a really disturbing read. We're all engineers of one type or other on this site. I suspect none of us would be able to remain silent if we knew a product we'd worked on could be life threatening in certain circumstances. I'm pretty sure I couldn't.

    Regards Tyrone.

    Some of the reporting from other programs has detailed Boeing retaliation against employees who have raised legitimate safety concerns.

    I'm sure some people made the calculation of whether to raise concerns about the 737MAX, or keep quiet and maintain a job at Boeing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    The first MAX crash that killed 189 people the following year was a Lion Air jet in Indonesia.
    I am sure this is all true but ... did you read the sequence of events in these crashes ? These people could have had 500 hours of simulator time, it would not have mattered. They did everything possible wrong.

    They couldn't find their ass with both hands. That's what crashed those planes. Incompetent pilots. More simulator time isn't going to help if they don't learn anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I am sure this is all true but ... did you read the sequence of events in these crashes ? These people could have had 500 hours of simulator time, it would not have mattered. They did everything possible wrong.

    They couldn't find their ass with both hands. That's what crashed those planes. Incompetent pilots. More simulator time isn't going to help if they don't learn anything.
    Quite possibly true, but we'll never know if simulator time could have saved that specific plane with those pilots.

    unfamiliarity can get you,
    For instance on my Makino (Fanuc 0M) if you press the spindle off button everything stops including the axes, if I press cycle start, the spindle starts up and it starts to feed.

    On my Fadals, you stop the spindle while it's running, it will keep on driving the axes. So you have to press the cycle stop button, then stop the spindle. To start back up you have to restart the spindle, then press cycle start. The only time I stopped the spindle (thinking i was on the Makino) before the cycle stop button was when the tool was heading off in the wrong direction towards a vise, imagine my surprise when I found stopping the spindle didn't stop the feed.

    If going from a 737 to a 737 MAX is anything like going from a Makino (Fanuc0M) to a Fadal then I'm sure the operator is (was) in for a few surprises. Especially with minimal training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    ... 100% safe aircraft.
    There is no such thing.

    Well, maybe. Tom McCahill once wrote, when asked how to make cars safer, "remove the motor." Might work for airplanes, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Quite possibly true, but we'll never know if simulator time could have saved that specific plane with those pilots.

    unfamiliarity can get you,
    For instance on my Makino (Fanuc 0M) if you press the spindle off button everything stops including the axes, if I press cycle start, the spindle starts up and it starts to feed.

    On my Fadals, you stop the spindle while it's running, it will keep on driving the axes. So you have to press the cycle stop button, then stop the spindle. To start back up you have to restart the spindle, then press cycle start. The only time I stopped the spindle (thinking i was on the Makino) before the cycle stop button was when the tool was heading off in the wrong direction towards a vise, imagine my surprise when I found stopping the spindle didn't stop the feed.

    If going from a 737 to a 737 MAX is anything like going from a Makino (Fanuc0M) to a Fadal then I'm sure the operator is (was) in for a few surprises. Especially with minimal training.
    And then you factor in the situation that you find yourself in. A smashed tool, maybe a wrecked vice as opposed to a 45 degree dive into terra firma.

    Regards Tyrone.

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  19. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan Wo View Post
    There is no such thing.

    Well, maybe. Tom McCahill once wrote, when asked how to make cars safer, "remove the motor." Might work for airplanes, too.
    Maybe that is true but it would be nice to know that the manufacturers objective is to design a 100% safe aircraft. From those emails I have my doubts.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    , “to make them feel stupid about trying to require any additional training requirements.”

    That makes me feel sick.

    There should be criminal prosecution for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    , “to make them feel stupid about trying to require any additional training requirements.”

    That makes me feel sick.

    There should be criminal prosecution for this.
    What are people thinking of when they make statements like that ? Is a pay check worth that much ? I'd prefer to be able to sleep at night.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Maybe it's been mentioned as I didn't go through all the pages. The plane was SHOT down. Wake up people, Boeing has there problems but any plane is coming down under those circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    From the Atlantic article

    Meanwhile, experienced Boeing engineers rolled their eyes as some software-development tasks (not specific to MCAS) were outsourced to recent college grads earning as little as $9 an hour, who were employed by an Indian subcontractor set up across from Seattle’s Boeing Field.

    It was probably the $12/hour Indian contractors working on the MCAS, I mean what's the worst that could happen...........
    On H1B visas that all the benevolent, flush-with-cash, employee-focused, high-tech companies strongly advocate and lobby for more of... the "call center programming" model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    What are people thinking of when they make statements like that ? Is a pay check worth that much ? I'd prefer to be able to sleep at night.

    Regards Tyrone.
    + Juan !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    From the Atlantic article

    Meanwhile, experienced Boeing engineers rolled their eyes as some software-development tasks (not specific to MCAS) were outsourced to recent college grads earning as little as $9 an hour, who were employed by an Indian subcontractor set up across from Seattle’s Boeing Field.

    It was probably the $12/hour Indian contractors working on the MCAS, I mean what's the worst that could happen...........
    No one in Seattle should be making that, Minimum wage in the city is $16 for large employers, $15 for smaller companies. Just for accuracy 😶


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