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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    I found this article interesting


    AirAsia Flight 8501 Crash Reveals the Dangers of Putting Machines in the Driver’s Seat

    More of a general effects of automation article, or rather humans reactions to automation
    This one also discusses the possibility of to much computer control without pilots even being made aware of it. I dont think "artificial intelegence" is the right word - automation would have been a better choice. Some good comments at the end.
    Boeing 737 Max: an artificial intelligence event?, by James Thompson - The Unz Review


    How many of you reading this remember any phone numbers anymore? Or do you just push the button on your device to have them called? I give the phone as just one everyday example of how tech is interfacing with life.
    This quote from gustafson article caught my attention, and is so true:

    "This recurrence suggests that there’s a fundamental vulnerability in the way that humans interact with automatic systems in a crisis. In the normal course of things, we come to rely on the automation so much that our own abilities fade away. Then, when the automated system suddenly goes haywire and shuts itself off, we don’t have the skills to expertly handle the situation. To make matters worse, the sudden stress of a life-or-death crisis tends to shut down our capacity for reasoned thought and leaves us prone to mentally freeze up."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    ...To make matters worse, the sudden stress of a life-or-death crisis tends to shut down our capacity for reasoned thought and leaves us prone to mentally freeze up."
    That's why you train and practice. Reactions have to be automatic.

    The very first time I soloed, I sat at the hold line- all nervous, with a million things running through my mind. As soon as I put in the power and began my takeoff roll, all of that vanished.

    The training took over, and all I thought about was flying the plane. Everything I did was the same as I had done many times before- I was completely relaxed and just went through the routine. I remember I was laughing at myself for being nervous.

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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Boeing's way of doing business is exceptional, their skills have been honed to near perfection over their history. All industries would benefit to emulate Boeing's strategy. As an example; Boeing is on track this year to produce over 45-50 737s per month.

    Elon Musk's SpaceX is doing great things, but let's not get ahead of our selves. Boeing can out juggle everyone.
    But not gravity in these two latest accidents.

    Regards Tyrone.

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Boeing's way of doing business is exceptional, their skills have been honed to near perfection over their history. All industries would benefit to emulate Boeing's strategy. As an example; Boeing is on track this year to produce over 45-50 737s per month.

    Elon Musk's SpaceX is doing great things, but let's not get ahead of our selves. Boeing can out juggle everyone.
    Hmmmmm....
    I used to make the electrical distribution panels for the (by memory) 757 767 777 out of glass filled nasty to machine fire and flame retardant laminate.
    They originally used FR4 PCB material, but had a few fires from arcing and sparking, so went over to this.

    Roll forwards to the Dreamliner...remember that they very nearly lost one of the flight trial aircraft? Huge fire and it nearly went down.
    What burnt? Yes, one of the electrical distribution panels made from FR4.

    They (Boeing) had changed supplier for this airframe and the lessons learned from the previous range, weren't carried across for the new design.
    I was amazed, as I assumed they'd be various cross-platform specialists that knew "everything" about their individual area (avionics, wing surfaces, engines etc).


    But then I've also worked at places (not saying LazyB is like this) where new staff or contractors come in and all old design is ignored because we've now got a "clean piece of paper" to design the next generation variant.
    Working this way, I've never seen it succeed.

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  7. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    That's now how it works. You can be in a 1G inverted dive, you won't even spill your drink.

    Gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable. That's why attitude indicators have gyros, and when you can't see the horizon you have to trust your instruments- the seat of your parts lies to you.
    I believe the phenomenon is called spatial disorientation

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    According to one report the MACS system relies on one sensor for incipient stall indication. No flight safety system relies on a single sensor. It causes a single point of failure.
    I worked at Douglas, Boeing and others and when a possible safety issue was found they do not inform the FAA or aircraft owners, they try and put in a fix before the problem is found outside the company.

  9. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I believe there is nothing bad going on here besides the situation itself. Relying on new types of automation which takes a lot of trust and faith. It is a tragedy when life is lost. All of the sensors and the intended design to measure and adjust on the fly safer and quicker than a person can do it was the intent.

    Sure there was a fail safe and if a pilot is prepared and aware of what is happening and can adjust in time then they only have a scary close call. I think even with training it may be possible to be overwhelmed and plain shocked when the incident occurs. More training and preparation would be wise along with upgrading the system. The pilots must be as aware of what is happening at the critical points as if there were no technology which could do it. This also means why have the tech if that is the case? I do not know at that point the best answer.

    A CNC Machine is very reliable and yet when things go wrong there is a Emergency Stop button. I have used it a time or two. Fortunately a crash on a machine is not leathal though it can be and likely has been on occasion. So the fail safe must be quick enough to activate on these jets and because they are moving the failsafe must always happen before it is too late. Honestly I would hate having no control as a pilot in that situation. If it were a Navy jet the automated features would be turned off already I would bet.
    I know you are a mod now, but please stop trying to be so diplomatic. Talking around the issue and approaching it from every angle does neither you nor the rest of us any good.

    We are all adults here so no need to tiptoe. You are allowed to have an opinion.

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  11. #128
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    I read about new controls years ago that some auto system would kick in and the pilot could not quickly get back to manual..this seems like the problem described..What a shame. I thought a manual disconnect lever the practical answer..till the problem was resolved ..Guess they did nothing and now we are having crashes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    my thoughts are too. this is really tragically f---ed up.


    ALL THAT IS NEEDED IS A BUTTON THAT SAYS "AUTO PILOT OVERRIDE"

    a red button under a cover, just like an E stop
    I have suggested a “TURN THIS S*** OFF!” caption.

    Perhaps the next CFIT event will have black boxes recording the crew chanting “F*** YOU BOEING!”


    I suspect a couple of factors, one being the pitot tubes being damaged or modified. And why isn’t a second opinion of GPS being queried?


    The second being conversion errors regarding knots/mph/kph, and altitude measurements being compared to terrain above sea level measurements.

    Won’t be the first time a conversion error was at fault. Remember the Gimli Glider?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bucktruck View Post
    I know you are a mod now, but please stop trying to be so diplomatic. Talking around the issue and approaching it from every angle does neither you nor the rest of us any good.

    We are all adults here so no need to tiptoe. You are allowed to have an opinion.
    This is my nature sometimes. It is challanging because these people are machinists like me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    This one also discusses the possibility of to much computer control without pilots even being made aware of it. I dont think "artificial intelegence" is the right word - automation would have been a better choice. Some good comments at the end.
    Boeing 737 Max: an artificial intelligence event?, by James Thompson - The Unz Review


    How many of you reading this remember any phone numbers anymore? Or do you just push the button on your device to have them called? I give the phone as just one everyday example of how tech is interfacing with life.
    This quote from gustafson article caught my attention, and is so true:

    "This recurrence suggests that there’s a fundamental vulnerability in the way that humans interact with automatic systems in a crisis. In the normal course of things, we come to rely on the automation so much that our own abilities fade away. Then, when the automated system suddenly goes haywire and shuts itself off, we don’t have the skills to expertly handle the situation. To make matters worse, the sudden stress of a life-or-death crisis tends to shut down our capacity for reasoned thought and leaves us prone to mentally freeze up."
    Good question I remember most all numbers from years yet with the phone I often do not care about especially non critical numbers like family. I like that aspect and I do encourage the children to memorize numbers in case they are separated from their phones. Who knew these phones would be given to kids for safety and connectivity at young ages. At such a young age they know more about their parents phones than their parents do and they are at that point just borrowing their parents phones. Automation in its different forms is here to stay.

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    Just heard the Black boxes have not been examined yet and there is friction between officials over something. The boxes are damaged and need some care. Three days before being sent off and time passing they claim evidence may not be of value at the site due to maybe neglect and lack of proper oversight of the crash scene? Predictable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Hmmmmm....
    I used to make the electrical distribution panels for the (by memory) 757 767 777 out of glass filled nasty to machine fire and flame retardant laminate.
    They originally used FR4 PCB material, but had a few fires from arcing and sparking, so went over to this.

    Roll forwards to the Dreamliner...remember that they very nearly lost one of the flight trial aircraft? Huge fire and it nearly went down.
    What burnt? Yes, one of the electrical distribution panels made from FR4.

    They (Boeing) had changed supplier for this airframe and the lessons learned from the previous range, weren't carried across for the new design.
    I was amazed, as I assumed they'd be various cross-platform specialists that knew "everything" about their individual area (avionics, wing surfaces, engines etc).


    But then I've also worked at places (not saying LazyB is like this) where new staff or contractors come in and all old design is ignored because we've now got a "clean piece of paper" to design the next generation variant.
    Working this way, I've never seen it succeed.
    That is what I call the saw tooth learning curve. The same people / suppliers doing the job all the details are handled. New people / suppliers the curve goes straight down and as all is re learned and the curve starts back up again. Seen it over and over again on race teams, especially factory teams that rotate engineers each year.

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    ["As an example; Boeing is on track this year to produce over 45-50 737s per month..."

    Well they better pick up the pace a bit. They're gonna need two extra ones now...

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    Demand for Boeing's products are accelerating, AirBus is also slammed with record orders.

    Two extra 737's............. 30 hours

    Boeing, AirBus print money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Well they better pick up the pace a bit. They're gonna need two extra ones now...
    Well finally!
    It's about time that the Asshole row of the Peanut Gallery show up with a comment!

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    Boeing's way of doing business is exceptional, their skills have been honed to near perfection over their history. All industries would benefit to emulate Boeing's strategy. As an example; Boeing is on track this year to produce over 45-50 737s per month.

    Elon Musk's SpaceX is doing great things, but let's not get ahead of our selves. Boeing can out juggle everyone.
    Your so delusional,

    US Air Force: Boeing has 'severe situation' after flawed inspections on refueling plane - CNNPolitics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    That's all so wrong I don't even know where to begin.
    No, it isn't wrong. It's exactly what the guy down the hall from me said, and he flies 747's for a living. In fact, he wasn't as polite about it

    There was no excuse for Lyon Air, the crew right before the crashed crew had that exact problem, solved it and reported it.

    If this one is the same, it's triple-inexcusable since they just had an example of this situation (if this is what happened.) If pilots everywhere did not read up on the situation after the Lyon crash, well .... what can you say ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    No, it isn't wrong. It's exactly what the guy down the hall from me said, and he flies 747's for a living. In fact, he wasn't as polite about it

    There was no excuse for Lyon Air, the crew right before the crashed crew had that exact problem, solved it and reported it.

    If this one is the same, it's triple-inexcusable since they just had an example of this situation (if this is what happened.) If pilots everywhere did not read up on the situation after the Lyon crash, well .... what can you say ?
    "the guy down the hall"? You don't even seem to know where you live.

    "pilots everywhere"? To be very diplomatic that sounds delusional. Pilots everywhere have to read up on all incidents? Even after lengthy investigation not all "incidents" are fully cleared up.

    I'm sure pilots have quite a bit of influence on how much automation is put into aircraft. Pilots are human so not all have the same opinion.

    Flying is a very safe transport method but nothing is foolproof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I'm sure pilots have quite a bit of influence on how much automation is put into aircraft. Pilots are human so not all have the same opinion.
    Honestly, i don't think you find they do!

    There just largely grunts hired to fly the planes, sure they get a fair bit of training and have some pretty tight rules to follow, but to most airlines there just another business cost and airlines spend a lot of time giving them very detailed orders to follow to maximize there profits in a highly competitive industry.

    Its more than fair to say if airlines had there way pilots would not be doing the flying and the whole flight would be far more automated to maximize the fuel burn efficiency. Sure there's a role for pilots to supervise the system for some time as yet, but just as with self driving trams ways, times are changing and these crashes are very much about - cause and effect of that gradual change over from human to machine control. Its been proven before what the machine does and what the human does needs to be clearly delineated so both can see and respond to one another and most importantly both can register a fault by a action happening that neither have commanded. This system if it is the cause of this whilst known is just spinning some control wheels, there's nothing prompting the pilot its active and in a high enough stress problem it has certainly been missed on a previous flight and it may well have been missed on this one.


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