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Thread: Boeing 737 Max

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Both you and Han are speculative in the absence of hard evidence. Han mentioned the GM switch scandal and that is proven and all that I have said is that this is still under investigation. Like the Independent Headline you site it says Multiple then the actual article reveals two. There is a lot of media exaggeration and outright mistakes that are known to happen anytime some tragedy happens.

    It is better to avoid getting drawn in because this happens every day in the media as a whole and so that means there is constant information floating around which meets one intention and that is so media profits. They are concerned more for ratings and advertising dollars than ethical journalism and even just accurate Journalism.

    One only needs to review this thread and see evidence of speculation and unfair appraisals.
    There are phone log records of Dennis “Boeing” calling trump.

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    I will say something about the witness statements to the media and likely later given to investigators is that if one believes such revelation then one would believe the Cows heard the noise and saw the plane and started running around in fear. That might be possible yet I have not seen it. Then the witness said there was clothes and flames coming from the plane as it was plunging down. I did not see it. That is one account from one witness.

    Such testimony is known as highly unreliable which is a inconvenient fact I know this to be true yet I still tend to want to believe witness accounts. I am a better machinist than I would be a lawster.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I will say something about the witness statements to the media and likely later given to investigators is that if one believes such revelation then one would believe the Cows heard the noise and saw the plane and started running around in fear. That might be possible yet I have not seen it. Then the witness said there was clothes and flames coming from the plane as it was plunging down. I did not see it. That is one account from one witness.

    Such testimony is known as highly unreliable which is a inconvenient fact I know this to be true yet I still tend to want to believe witness accounts. I am a better machinist than I would be a lawster.


    Police are now rating eye witness as the least reliable form of evidence.

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    I will assure you that the crash investigators take all eyewitness very seriously. If the statement of seeing smoke/clothes trailing from the rear of the plane before it crashed is confirmed, we have a much bigger problem than Flight Control issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by otrlt View Post
    I will assure you that the crash investigators take all eyewitness very seriously. If the statement of seeing smoke/clothes trailing from the rear of the plane before it crashed is confirmed, we have a much bigger problem than Flight Control issues.
    Certainly.
    But if they find no debris along the flight path they’ll set it aside.


    Be that as it may, violent maneuvers can break things.

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    This

    YouTube

    FAA grounded them as the jack screw for the trim was found fully down at the the crash site, draw your own conclusions but theirs multiple evidence now it was similar to before! That by the sounds of things was the 3rd piece of info to push them from safe to fly to grounding criteria.

    With that i think its pretty clear what kinda happened to the mechanical side, but it does sound like the mechanicals have now been shown irrefutably to have commanded a fully nose down trim and have been found set at that as the cause of the crash. its now back to how the pilots did not identify this and fix it in time - how it went wrong from the control - augmentation side, if that system was at fault, which is still a unknown,

    Seams unlike some of the above posters have said, the control yoke does not have enough control authority to allow normal control in a fully nose down trim with the ever increasing air speed. Hence the plane was doomed once it was fully trimmed nose down if that could not be countered in time.

  7. Likes Rob F. liked this post
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    [QUOTE=Spinit;3329396]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    I once refereed a football match. I was out with an minor injury so I agreed to ref a friendly game between the first team and the reserves of the teams I played for. It was mayhem, team mates were trying to maim each other !

    I'm just saying refereeing anything isn't easy. Spinit is doing his best on the most controversial thread on this site. Cut the guy some slack and let's not question his integrity.

    Regards Tyrone.[/QUOT
    Thanks Tyrone.,

    Tough crowd right?
    I'm afraid so. Especially on a Friday ! It goes with the " Machinist " territory. Most engineers are opinionated and not used to taking a backward step.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    [QUOTE=Tyrone Shoelaces;3329474]
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post

    I'm afraid so. Especially on a Friday ! It goes with the " Machinist " territory. Most engineers are opinionated and not used to taking a backward step.

    Regards Tyrone.
    Friday and the weekend everyone needs to blow a little steam. I try hard to understand that yet I can only take so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    This

    YouTube

    FAA grounded them as the jack screw for the trim was found fully down at the the crash site, draw your own conclusions but theirs multiple evidence now it was similar to before! That by the sounds of things was the 3rd piece of info to push them from safe to fly to grounding criteria.

    With that i think its pretty clear what kinda happened to the mechanical side, but it does sound like the mechanicals have now been shown irrefutably to have commanded a fully nose down trim and have been found set at that as the cause of the crash. its now back to how the pilots did not identify this and fix it in time - how it went wrong from the control - augmentation side, if that system was at fault, which is still a unknown,

    Seams unlike some of the above posters have said, the control yoke does not have enough control authority to allow normal control in a fully nose down trim with the ever increasing air speed. Hence the plane was doomed once it was fully trimmed nose down if that could not be countered in time.
    Seems weird to have a plane where the trim elements can over power the primary control surfaces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    I used to go to this forum to add some balance to the right wing slant. Not anymore. Now this forum is run by a MAGA type and if you aren't going to post things that are in line with that go somewhere else. You may have missed it but there have also been several posts pointing out your bias. You probably deleted them too.
    BS...
    I’m as far from MAGA as you can get, and not shy about sharing.

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    The earlier-generation 737s were under a dark shadow of vertical stabilizer (aka rudder) control problems that may have led to several falling-out-of-sky episodes.

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    "Moderating" this sub forum has gone politically 180º.

    The main difference between the 2 moderator types is that Metlmunchr kept much more in the background and didn't feel the need to constantly comment and post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    This

    YouTube

    FAA grounded them as the jack screw for the trim was found fully down at the the crash site, draw your own conclusions but theirs multiple evidence now it was similar to before! That by the sounds of things was the 3rd piece of info to push them from safe to fly to grounding criteria.
    This is a great (and short) explanation of what happened, thanks for finding it amid all the BS speculation out there.

  15. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    "Moderating" this sub forum has gone politically 180º.

    The main difference between the 2 moderator types is that Metlmunchr kept much more in the background and didn't feel the need to constantly comment and post.
    will comment a lot less even if you ask me a direct question Gordon.
    I

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Seems weird to have a plane where the trim elements can over power the primary control surfaces.
    Watch the video, the trim moves the complete horizontal tail surface, moving the back edge of that tail surface probably won't counteract that.

    What seams odd is the range of motion that trim has, yet the green zone on the console is so much narrower, almost gotta ask why the trim has the range it does if normal is only +- a few degrees?

    FYI trimmed nose down they sure as hell were not falling out of the sky, merely trying to do a inverted loop and im not sure what altitude that would take to pull that off in a 737, but im pretty certain at most points of a inverted loop hard enough to not hit the ground, your wee wee is definitely flowing up your shirt not down your trouser leg!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    "Moderating" this sub forum has gone politically 180º.

    The main difference between the 2 moderator types is that Metlmunchr kept much more in the background and didn't feel the need to constantly comment and post.
    FYI whilst you were banned the place was pretty nice, its kinda gone back down hill since your return. Remember, each reply to a post either raises of lowers the std of that thread, your replies of late are akin to the elevator trim adjustments, some point hopefully you bottom out maybe? Equally as a member hes as entitled to post as any of us, he just maybe should be the bigger man and follow the example he set out with about keeping it professional "ish"

    Like most Moderators he has to find his feet, so give him a chance, hes got his hands full with us lot! Even more so with all the different problems way beyond most sane people we bring here. In fact would probaly go as far as to say its probably easier being a mod on some of the insane mental health forums than it is dealing with us bunch!

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Garner View Post
    The earlier-generation 737s were under a dark shadow of vertical stabilizer (aka rudder) control problems that may have led to several falling-out-of-sky episodes.
    The servo valve had a weird failure.
    Two hull losses, a couple hundred souls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    This is a great (and short) explanation of what happened, thanks for finding it amid all the BS speculation out there.
    His reporting style is kinda nice is it not? Equally it is honest about the tech details that typically interest us lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jerholz View Post
    Ok, against my better judgement, I'm going to try to correct some inaccuracies posted here and maybe offer a little bit of perspective.

    First, the 737 is a very stable aircraft with a large flight envelope. It is easy to hand fly. The only time the envelope is small is if you are near the top of it's altitude envelope (based on weight and outside air temp), and that's true of any aircraft.

    No 737 is entirely fly-by-wire. The primary flight controls are hydraulically actuated. There are cables running from the control column to the main wheel well. From there, it's hydraulic. Each primary control surface (aileron, elevator, and rudder) has two actuator on independent hydraulic systems with a third manual (hydraulic for the rudder) backup if they both fail. Starting with the NG models in late 1997, the throttles became fly-by wire. Previously there were cables all the way to the fuel control unit. Now, it's just a potentiometer under each thrust lever and the computer runs the engine. There was one failure of this system (that I know of) that was early on and blamed on faulty firmware. It was fixed. Starting with the MAX, the spoiler system became fly-by-wire (for weight savings, I believe). Spoilers are used for roll control augmentation, extra drag when needed in flight, and on landing to kill wing lift for better braking.

    In addition to elevator control for pitch, the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer can be moved up and down to trim off elevator control force. There are two motors running a jack screw. One for the autopilot and one controlled by switches on the pilot's control yokes. You can also grab a big wheel on either side of the throttle stand and do it manually. Whenever either motor trims the stab, the big wheel moves. There are stab trim cutout which remove electrical power from the motors.

    MCAS was added to the MAX aircraft. It uses the captain's angle of attack (AOA) vane to determine that a stall (wing reaching critical angle of attack) is imminent and it then runs the stab trim towards nose down for up to 10 seconds. For the record, that's a lot of nose down trim. MCAS only operates with the flaps up and the autopilot off. If the pilot activates the yoke trim switches (which he would naturally do if he were fighting to pull back on the control column), MCAS stops. Once the pilot stops trimming, MCAS can restart if it still detects high AOA. If you turn off stab trim cutout switches, MCAS can no longer function.

    Theoretically, a malfunctioning AOA vane causing a faulty MCAS event is easily recoverable. Obviously, in practice it may not be so easy. You have a hand full of out-of-trim aircraft with possible multiple other loud and confusing aural warnings and the stall warning (stick shaker) going off. Having knowledge of the Lion Air failure makes it much easier for a crew to correctly diagnose and respond to this failure.


    We don't know the cause of the latest accident yet, so let's hold off on the blame game until we do.
    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Watch the video, the trim moves the complete horizontal tail surface, moving the back edge of that tail surface probably won't counteract that.

    What seams odd is the range of motion that trim has, yet the green zone on the console is so much narrower, almost gotta ask why the trim has the range it does if normal is only +- a few degrees?

    FYI trimmed nose down they sure as hell were not falling out of the sky, merely trying to do a inverted loop and im not sure what altitude that would take to pull that off in a 737, but im pretty certain at most points of a inverted loop hard enough to not hit the ground, your wee wee is definitely flowing up your shirt not down your trouser leg!
    As I said, it seems weird a trim element could over ride the primary control surfaces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I will comment a lot less even if you ask me a direct question Gordon.
    Huh? If asked a direct question (by anyone) then I'd regard it as a reason to comment - aka "answer". What I posted was what I'm thinking. No comment was necessary by you IMO.


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