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  1. #21
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    Wonder when these little guys will be hitting the shelves in America?

    At this point, it's very hard to trust the crap being peddled on our shelves coming from a nation like China. I've seen way too many shortcuts and attempts to trick the customer. We do our best to satisfy the customer's demands here in the states, but it seems that doesn't matter anymore.

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    Andywire, your first picture is of Java... you realize that's not in China, right?
    And a couple random pictures of bad pollution may seem sensational, but are more or less irrelevant to any intelligent debate; you can easily find equivalently ugly photos taken in America, or any number of other countries. Interesting videos though.

    And you can stow the rhetoric, Peddler, nobody promoted poor health standards or spoke in favour of environmental damage. From your insistence on referring to "Red China", we can see that your opinion is driven by political dislike, rather than actual facts regarding the topic at hand, so I'm disinclined to take anything you have to say on the subject very seriously. As for you and your 'hard earned cash', blah blah blah. *Their* hard-earned cash is the only thing keeping your deficit-ridden government afloat.

    I'm not saying there aren't problems with pollution, quality, whatnot. But categorically condemning everything Chinese as crap, and hailing everything American as great simply for being American, as you two seem to believe, is a rather immature point of view.

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    The Chinesse gov knows exactly what they are doing to the air. I can remember the price of Roundup(stay with me on this) going berzerk back when China wanted to host the Olympics. Monsanto even put out a memo. Put the price over $30/gallon when glyphosate could only be produced in countries that had some sort of regulation. Now it is back to around $8. I wish I had saved that memo, would be a great piece to add here. I mow grass, this is the best I have to add on the subject of China farting up our air. I know regulation sucks and causes some industries huge grief, but I like breathing.
    Furthermore if I was playing rock, paper, scissors with an american piece of paper I would break the crap out of chinese scissors with that paper. Heck most chinese equipment cant cut our wood and plastic, and bends if you put our steel on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Namzy View Post
    And a couple random pictures of bad pollution may seem sensational, but are more or less irrelevant to any intelligent debate
    If it were just "random pictures of bad pollution", you might have a point. But when there are monthly articles in leading publications like The Economist about the historic volumes of pollution that China is generating, or when NASA posts live updated satellite photos showing the massive concentration of air contaminants over Eastern (industrialized) China, or when the Japanese are filing United Nations protests about the immense fallout of contaminants wafting 1300 miles over the China Sea from Beijing and Shanghai and landing on Tokyo, you have to consider if you're the one who's being hard headed.

    China's Air Pollution Linked To Millions Of Early Deaths : Shots - Health News : NPR

    Even the Chinese, at great personal peril, are protesting the abysmal personal dangers from the immense amount of pollution that China has generated in the last 10 years as part of it's industrialization:

    Public anger over pollution in China is finally being taken seriously - Commentators - Voices - The Independent

    Pollution and its health effects are a leading cause of unrest in China as the country’s rapid economic rise is accompanied by often appalling environmental side-effects.
    The air in most cities is regularly barely breathable and most of China’s rivers are poisoned.

    Pollution is the single biggest source of complaint among young people, and most environmental protests are carried out by educated, middle-class Chinese, worried about the danger to their families that environmental degradation can cause.

    They are a key demographic for the ruling Communist Party, which needs their support to ensure the party retains its grip on power. The party has acknowledged that rising public anger over environmental disasters is a threat to stability.




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    You have looked on a map to see where Beijing, Shanghai and Tokyo are in relationship to one another and you did notice who is between them.
    Not doubting that China has a pollution problem, if we were producing we would have one also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiNi View Post
    Not doubting that China has a pollution problem, if we were producing we would have one also.
    The difference is that China, by choice, has absolutely no pollution controls -- you won't see raw sulfur being spewed into the atmosphere by the tons, or heavy metals being dumped into the local water supply, in any first-world country.

    But pollution controls would hinder their industrial takeover...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lazlo View Post
    If it were just "random pictures of bad pollution", you might have a point. But when there are monthly articles in leading publications like The Economist about the historic volumes of pollution that China is generating, or when NASA posts live updated satellite photos showing the massive concentration of air contaminants over Eastern (industrialized) China, or when the Japanese are filing United Nations protests about the immense fallout of contaminants wafting 1300 miles over the China Sea from Beijing and Shanghai and landing on Tokyo, you have to consider if you're the one who's being hard headed.
    [/IMG]
    It's been less than two years since I was last in Shanghai (largest city in China) and Guangzhou (third largest) and didn't experience air polution. In fact I was very surprised at how clean especially Guangzhou was and Shenzen too.

    In Guangzhou, Shenzen and Hong Kong (all within 2 hours drive from each other) there are over 30 million people and the province of Guangdong (over 100 million people) is a hi tech area.

    Guangdong leads population growth

    I'm not saying polution doesn't exist in China but I remember as a teenager how bad polution was in the UK.

    Gordon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    It's been less than two years since I was last in Shanghai (largest city in China) and Guangzhou (third largest) and didn't experience air polution. In fact I was very surprised at how clean especially Guangzhou was and Shenzen too.

    In Guangzhou, Shenzen and Hong Kong (all within 2 hours drive from each other) there are over 30 million people and the province of Guangdong (over 100 million people) is a hi tech area.

    Guangdong leads population growth

    I'm not saying polution doesn't exist in China but I remember as a teenager how bad polution was in the UK.

    Gordon
    Gordon, youre too old for trolling like that.

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    Gordon, perhaps you're like the Olympics...... important enough that they shut all the smoke belchers down prior to your arrival so the air had a chance to clear

    Seriously though, can you point us to any pictures of the cities in China's industrial region where buildings more than a couple blocks away are anything more than a blur among the smog? I've watched quite a few documentaries on various aspects of China, most entirely unrelated to pollution, and the most notable common factor among most of them is the presence of air pollution to the extent that details of anything at any significant distance from the camera are blurred, and as the distance increases the outlines of buildings become nothing more than ghostly shadows.

    My dad spent about 15 months in Shanghai and up and down the Wang Pu and Yang Tze rivers at the end of WW2. We were watching a show about Shanghai together a couple years ago, and I remember him mentioning that the air there looked far worse than he remembered it from 60+ yrs ago even considering the fact that they burned endless amounts of wood and coal for heating, cooking, and powering boilers in small boats to the point where the air was always thick with smoke back then.

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    One of the guys who does all my powder coating spent a month in China last week. He was there for some trade show, he brought home pics of the hotel and the conference center, you could not see the top of the building it was too polluted. He got very sick and had to wear masks out doors, he said the pollution would get real bad at noon and just build till the end of the work day. All the pics he took show people in masks, they sell portable air purifiers and oxygen, they are big sellers.

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    This is a link to fairly recent pollution stats: http://www.who.int/entity/phe/health...P_database.xls
    You can sort it any way Excel lets you.

    Kinda interesting that China isn't the worst ( certainly not great ) polluted. India is ahead of them ( in a bad way )
    It is however interesting that Ulanbataar is horrible, second only to a city in Iran. Wouldn't have thought horseshiit is so polluting . ( tough DC should have given me a clue )

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    Quote Originally Posted by metlmunchr View Post
    Seriously though, can you point us to any pictures of the cities in China's industrial region where buildings more than a couple blocks away are anything more than a blur among the smog? I've watched quite a few documentaries on various aspects of China, most entirely unrelated to pollution, and the most notable common factor among most of them is the presence of air pollution to the extent that details of anything at any significant distance from the camera are blurred, and as the distance increases the outlines of buildings become nothing more than ghostly shadows.
    Shanghai air pollution reaches record levels

    Pollution in the southern Chinese city of Shanghai has reached record levels, pushing air quality levels to ‘severe’ or ‘hazardous,’ the highest level on the Air Quality Index Scale. Amidst long-standing concerns over pollution, governmental websites around the world allow members of the public to monitor air quality in their region.

    Chinese newspaper Shanghai Daily reports that the air quality in the city over Tuesday, May 3 and Wednesday, May 4 was the “worst air quality to date.”

    The US embassy in Beijing caused controversy last year when on its Twitter feed of hourly air quality (@beijingair) the automated system reported that air quality in Beijing was “crazy bad” after air pollution levels went off the scale.

    The Air Quality Index (AQI) measures pollutants in the air; the index is also sometimes called the Air Pollution Index (API) – though these two indices measure slightly separate pollutants they are often used interchangeably.

    The scale ranks the air quality from Good (0-50), Moderate (51-100), Unhealthy for sensitive groups (101-150), Unhealthy (151-200), Very unhealthy (201-300) to Hazardous’ (301-500).

    On May 4 [2013] Shanghai’s air quality was rated 500."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Madis Reivik View Post
    Gordon, youre too old for trolling like that.
    Madis, when's the last time you were in China?

    Gordon

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    Quote Originally Posted by metlmunchr View Post
    Gordon, perhaps you're like the Olympics...... important enough that they shut all the smoke belchers down prior to your arrival so the air had a chance to clear

    Seriously though, can you point us to any pictures of the cities in China's industrial region where buildings more than a couple blocks away are anything more than a blur among the smog? I've watched quite a few documentaries on various aspects of China, most entirely unrelated to pollution, and the most notable common factor among most of them is the presence of air pollution to the extent that details of anything at any significant distance from the camera are blurred, and as the distance increases the outlines of buildings become nothing more than ghostly shadows.

    My dad spent about 15 months in Shanghai and up and down the Wang Pu and Yang Tze rivers at the end of WW2. We were watching a show about Shanghai together a couple years ago, and I remember him mentioning that the air there looked far worse than he remembered it from 60+ yrs ago even considering the fact that they burned endless amounts of wood and coal for heating, cooking, and powering boilers in small boats to the point where the air was always thick with smoke back then.
    Metlmunchr I doubt very much if i'm important enough to clean up polution for any visit I made

    Last time I was in China it was as a vacation with my wife and two friends. We stayed 6 days in Guangzhou, 6 in Guilin and the surrounding area and 4 days in Shanghai. This was in the month of April. As it was a vacation industrial ares weren't our points of interest but during our travelling at no time did we see or experience pollution.

    I took film and hundreds of pictures of the trip and if you PM me your address I'll send you a DVD. If you can see any sign of polution then I'd be surprised. Even from the top of the Guangzhou Tower we could see to the horizon.

    Canton Tower (

    We travelled for 6 days here
    Travel to Guilin and Yangshuo, China - YouTube

    In some parts of Southern China (Shanghai and South) I have experienced heat haze (it does rain often and then temperatures rise above 90ºF) but I've also experienced the same in the USA in Blue Grass country

    Of course there will be polution in the parts of China where industry is concentrated but I personally just haven't seen it but then again I didn't go looking for it. Some seem to regard China as immersed in polution but it is a country the size of Canada and with a population of over 1,400 million and in industrial expansion so I'm certain there will be areas and companies worthy of criticism.

    Contrary to popular belief by some I'm not exceptionally pro China - I'm just not anti China. I've met nothing but friendliness in China and the fact that the government is communistic desn't affect how the population as a whole are. I think that's a fact that often gets overlooked. I doubt if a Democratic or Republican president makes any difference in how Americans normally act daily.

    Gordon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Madis, when's the last time you were in China?

    Gordon
    I've never been in China. I've never been on the Moon too, therefore Moon does not exist.

    You see, statistically YOU have never been in China too. As well one may ask "have you ever been in Europe". There are extreme variations of climate and conditions - compare air quality in July in Finnmark and Prague. Both are Europe.


    Thats why there is statistics, you cannot be everywhere by yourself. If you go to Chernobyl and wont get cancer, it does not make it healthy place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madis Reivik View Post
    I've never been in China. I've never been on the Moon too, therefore Moon does not exist.

    You see, statistically YOU have never been in China too. As well one may ask "have you ever been in Europe". There are extreme variations of climate and conditions - compare air quality in July in Finnmark and Prague. Both are Europe.


    Thats why there is statistics, you cannot be everywhere by yourself. If you go to Chernobyl and wont get cancer, it does not make it healthy place.
    Congratulations

    That's a post I wouldn't know how to answer except to ask, "Is the air so poluted in Estonia that you can't see the moon?".

    I would suggest that you read what I wrote in post #34

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    Amusingly, I'm going to Shanghai in 2 weeks for a staff meeting. I'll let you know Gordon

    But considering that you were over there visiting one of your suppliers, I have a feeling we'd have different opinions standing next to each other

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    That is a China problem and a Europe problem and yes it may become a world problem like Mt St Helen causing world smog that lasted two or three years.
    The U.S eminent problem much like lead paint in Mattel toys and poison dog and cat food (from China) is that China has little respect for U.S. regulations and does whatever they choose to do, and then gets away with it..
    Now that heavy metals and chemicals are showing up in China food and food products we should set the mark on China food imports (and all food imports) stetting heavy fines and even jail terms for selling import foods in the U.S. with not accurately labeling place of origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Namzy View Post
    And you can stow the rhetoric, Peddler, nobody promoted poor health standards or spoke in favour of environmental damage. From your insistence on referring to "Red China", we can see that your opinion is driven by political dislike, rather than actual facts regarding the topic at hand, so I'm disinclined to take anything you have to say on the subject very seriously.
    So by calling them what they are I'm in the wrong? My opinion is indeed driven by politics... politics and many other things. Just so you know, I also have a strong dislike for the two parties we're stuck with here. I guess you could say that I'm an equal opportunity disliker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namzy View Post
    As for you and your 'hard earned cash', blah blah blah. *Their* hard-earned cash is the only thing keeping your deficit-ridden government afloat.
    True that, but personally I had very little to do with that. When millions of American jobs were being shipped offshore so a very select few could reap the rewards I was on quite the rant.
    Some of the things I figured might happen is that the tax base would fall radically and those who cause the shortfalls would scream like spoiled brats when asked to help make up for the shortfall they themselves caused.
    I envisioned American consumer power falling, leaving the importers of Red Chinese goods with a customer base with less buying power. To this day I can't see this business model being sustainable or good for anyone but a very few Americans.
    Since I'm still not convinced that the Red Chinese love us or our freedoms I'm concerned if we ever have to do battle with them. We seem to already be at the point that we would have to have them make the weapons we would need to do battle with them plus we would have to borrow more money from them or sell them some of our public accets to help pay for a war against them. I'm not so sure this would work out too well for us. Let's just pray that I'm wrong on this prediction unlike the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namzy View Post
    I'm not saying there aren't problems with pollution, quality, whatnot. But categorically condemning everything Chinese as crap, and hailing everything American as great simply for being American, as you two seem to believe, is a rather immature point of view.
    Can you point to where I said everything American is great? Talk about immature.
    I will say this. Heft a tool made in the states back when we were a well-to-do, industrial powerhouse and compare it to the clones coming out of Red China. We invented and manufatured some very nice stuff.

    Gordon, I have traveled the world quite a bit. A few places never were of interest for me to visit, China being one of them. First off, I like to know what I'm eating and even if I did somehow find out FOR SURE what I'm being served I would like to know how cleanly and safely it was handled and prepared.
    Basically you're telling us that the pictures, films and stories about polution woes in Red China are all lies?
    Until I know for certain that Red China cleans up their acts in health and safety standards and enacts very stringent polution standards I'll continue to avoid products made there as best I can. This is one of the beauties of living in a free country, I can still chose where and how I would like to spend my money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lazlo View Post
    Amusingly, I'm going to Shanghai in 2 weeks for a staff meeting. I'll let you know Gordon

    But considering that you were over there visiting one of your suppliers, I have a feeling we'd have different opinions standing next to each other
    I don't have any supplier in or around Shanghai Last time in China was purely vacation with my wife and two friends.

    I don't breathe differently or see better just because I stand next to anyone Hmmm maybe if they had bad breath I would

    Anyway I look forward to hearing about your first hand experience

    Gordon


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