The domestic engineering shrink ray. The protagonist of General Motors.

With the announcement of Toyota`s clean shave victory in car manufacturing stats, we paid close attention to the silver medal winner- GM, which raked in 200k less in sales numbers. But did these both companies play by the same rules or the Orwellian equality was applied ? Let`s have a look.
Toyota-the homerunner. Toyota has sold almost 10 million vehicles( 2013), and all of them are based on Toyota engineered platforms, engines and majority of trannies. Even if we sequester them by 4 major brands- Toyota, Lexus, Scion and Hino. Toyota doesn`t resort to purchasing foreign companies and then adding their manufacturing capacity to their own bulk. And a pleasant addition to the Japan based engineering is the industrial robots- which , logically, are also Japan engineered and built. Full cycle homerun. Be those Fanuc,Yaskawa, Mitsubishi Electric, Epson, Amada, Kawasaki, Panasonic, Toyoda or Nachi , is another story.
General Motors is a different cloth. After many decades of badge engineering and annihilations of crossdressing brands, after starving R&D funds for various subsidiaries and resorting to lipstick on a pig strategy, it has drained so much brain and engineering capacity, that the only solution was to outsource engineering and pretend to be the local ol` boy.
Let`s see. What platforms does GM have today? The tiniest of them all is German built Opel Corsa platform dubbed as Gamma II. Developed by bratwurst eaters in Russelheim. As if that was not enough, Opel had partnership with Italian Fiat and spawned SCCC platform, which was basically derived from Gamma II. GM then based many vehicles on it- Chevy Spark,Aveo,Sonic,Cobalt,Onix, Trax, Buick Encore. Most of them are built in South Korea.
Next is Delta II platform, basically a German engineered Opel Astra platform. Off the platform many vehicles were built( as dyslexic Yoda might say)-Cadillac ELR, Buick Verano, Chevrolet Volt, Chevrolet Cruze. Currently GM is pondering over Delta III, which, of course, will be built by someone else, in this case by Peugeot( based on 308). Delta platform has also given birth to D2XX, which is another German iteration which will give floor to future Chevy Captiva, Equinox and Cruze. Engineering Oktoberfest in Russelheim one might say.
Moving on to next. Epsilon II ( Gee, GM sure knows how to stack neat names for platforms). The first Epsilon was also German built and let me call it in layman`s terms- Opel Vectra platform. Besides underlaying Vectra, and Swedish SAAB 9-3 and 9-5, it was good enough to be used for plethora of GM brands and models-Buick Lacrosse ,Cadillac BLS( abbreviation for bullshit) ,Chevrolet Impala, Chevrolet Malibu, Pontiac G6,Saturn Aura. Epsilon II was a foundation for Opel Insignia ( Vectra Successor), Buick Regal, Buick LaCrosse,Chevrolet Malibu, Chevrolet Impala, Cadillac XTS. But that was not good enough of sauerkraut.
GM decided to derive another platform out of Epsilon II, namely Lambda platform. This platform formed basis for Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, Chevrolet Traverse.
Ist das inaff? Nein. GM also has a nice Kappa platform, which was constructed from pieces of yodelling Delta platform. You might remember the nifty Opel GT, Pontiac Solstice and Saturn`s conjoined twin. Of course, large deal of aforementioned vehicles enjoyed German engineered Ecotec engines and trannies ( I don`t mean transsexual drivers). Especially those that bore emblems `Turbo`.
Of course, the story wouldn`t have a texture, if I didn`t mention Zeta platform. As you already suspected, it was developed somewhere else. Not in Narnia, but pretty close. In this case, in Australia by Holden engineers with corks hanging around their hats. Pontiac G8,Camaro,Caprice and Buick Park Avenue were hatched off this one.
Did I mention Theta platform? Well, then here it goes. It was developed by adding Teutonic and Saxon accuracy to South Korean elbow grease, while mouthpieces in Renneissance Center were left with the most complex piece of the puzzle- what to name the new platform?! After adding Greek linguistic flavour to this Daewoo/Opel underpinning, new cars were born-Opel Antara,Chevrolet Equinox, Pontiac Torrent, Chevrolet Captiva,GMC Terrain.
Now- the punchline. The punchline is simple, a dislocated jaw of engineering. No wonder Detroit is in shambles if real engineering takes place elsewhere but at home. How can you expect people to have jobs, if they are not involved in engineering and building stuff? Especially high skilled workforce that is needed for precision movement engineering. How can you have skilled workforce, if they haven`t accumulated expertize? And how can you have expertize if factories are shuttered and R&D centers destroyed? May I say- short term profiting chicken are coming home to roost? I didn`t want to end this rant on a sad note ( not Nissan Note obviously), so I added a fun fact- No German car is built on a non-german platform. Evvvverrrrr.

P.S. Pardon my language, as I am from Latvia, and English is not my native language.
If you want me to add more rants on US car manufacturing or adjacent industries, add a comment. Thank You.

Please break down the Operations Research in to a Flow Chart which will be much easier to convey the rant, include any photos of car show babe's in a linked to...for reasearch.
Rant score 6, no mention of twattwaffle.

The Volt wasn't engineered in US that's unpossible :] good rant. I'll have to leave it to others to try to pick your thesis apart. ---Trevor

Post may lead one to surmise that the poster knows a bit about who makes what, but is needlessly and incomprehensively aggressive. Also contains apparently pointless insults like "Developed by bratwurst eaters in Russelheim". Why? The attempt to use as many metaphors as possible (some very strained) takes away from the content of the post. What is the point of the post? Also the post is very one-sided, a rant in one direction, though not a recognizable one. For example where is your take on GM now shutting down a german car plant because they found cheaper labor in the UK? Or that they used OPEL to make money for them for decades without letting them benefit from the fruits of their labors and blocking their access to foreign markets (outside EU).
The post is so out of context, it seemed to me it was a copy and paste from someplace else.

The subject is very interesting. Tell me more about what Volvo actually is these days. Please do it in a more content driven and less anger driven manner.

Thanks.

Why should GM do much design and/or build work in Detroit or the US. It's a very long way away from most of their markets....

I though the VW mini van was built on the Chrysler mini-van platform. Also, some of Toyotas products are built here in the uS. I think the Avalon was designed in the US.
Tom

Yet despite all their bumbling mange to pull off both car and truck of the year.
Obviously brainless twits.
Bob

CarbideBob said:

Yet despite all their bumbling mange to pull off both car and truck of the year.
Obviously brainless twits.
Bob

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What country did they manage that in? I'm frankly too lazy (and my care factor is negative) to bother even using Google to see for myself.....

PDW

The prose appears heavily influenced by Car&Driver&Road&Track-speak. Every adjective must have embedded snark for maximum punch. So there's that.

The author also hangs out here: Dodge Advancedboy Stealth - Finished Projects - Product Design Forums
and here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11955.0
where he says, interestingly, and apparently genuinely:
"I am a 23 years old , from Latvia, small rural town Kuldiga. My dream is to bring back manufacturing to United States , because I believe only complex, added value manufacturing could save America , and it must be resurrected. Basically I am training more on car designs and innovations, but I like aviation as well, as it represents human ingenuity and achievement."

Plus, he got the sub-forum right.

Chip

PDW said:

What country did they manage that in? I'm frankly too lazy (and my care factor is negative) to bother even using Google to see for myself.....

PDW

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Some little auto market country. Announced at some little car show in a minor Podunk car building city.
Only 800,000 people showed up to see the cars.
Bob

The point of the rant is:

"Now- the punchline. The punchline is simple, a dislocated jaw of engineering. No wonder Detroit is in shambles if real engineering takes place elsewhere but at home. How can you expect people to have jobs, if they are not involved in engineering and building stuff? Especially high skilled workforce that is needed for precision movement engineering. How can you have skilled workforce, if they haven`t accumulated expertize? And how can you have expertize if factories are shuttered and R&D centers destroyed? May I say- short term profiting chicken are coming home to roost? I didn`t want to end this rant on a sad note ( not Nissan Note obviously), so I added a fun fact- No German car is built on a non-german platform. Evvvverrrrr."

It is too late for the U.S. Govt. to protect the beneficiaries of the manufacturing sector. Manufacturing has escaped from the North American Continent and left the actual hands that tended the lathe as motherless and fatherless orphans. There will be no more jobs created by manufacturing until engineering returns. It will not return until there is a great enough need. So far there is no need. As long as there is no need, the rigors of engineering will not be taken up by the youth. The Roman Empire took 400 years to decline and fall. The Empire of the United States, due to its high overhead may reach the same state of rest in less time. My uneducated, biased and prejudiced opinion.

I suspect that you'll find that the US manufactures more stuff now than it has over the last 100 years. What takes away the manufacturing jobs is automation. The hands that tended the lathe aren't needed when the lathe doesn't have handwheels.

Also contains apparently pointless insults like "Developed by bratwurst eaters in Russelheim".

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That could upset me. Me, the Kraut. But it didn't.
If it upsets you, just think it expressed the attitude of GM US towards Germany.

Anyhow, listing the platforms made in Krautland and where they were used, it shows how GM milked Opel for decades. So your rant about closing factories is right.

Re Volvo:
They are now Chinese owned. Wether they keep on using a GM platform, I don't know. But I know that they do make development in Germany. Last year, I talked with one of their uppers. I liked what he said. Volvo will get more driver centric and leave out the useless gimmicks. Yes, I like the Volvos since decades (but never had one).

Nick

The curious case of pentagram. Chrysler and bedfellows.
Chrysler has been known for years as a lackluster among the Big3, playing catchup and eviscerating their original genome underneath the clay foundation they have been left with. Chrysler has never been a recluse. Never been a lonely tinkerer with subatomic particles or new platforms. Coincidentally it has always found partners ir crime to share visions with ( not Eagle Vision I guess). Where shall we begin? With Fiat affair probably?
After being raped by various Cerberus canine attacks and other non automotive gangs, Chrysler top brass concluded that no such affairs could provide them with solid platforms and components to be used for future endeavours in automotive field. In 2014 Italian FIAT finalised the total purchase of Chrysler Corp. ( LLC_the Lowest Liability Company, most likely) That happened after a couple of years of shopping spree, when FIAT had gone berserk buying pieces and agonising shreds of once a mighty industrial manufacturer. The deal was sealed a couple of days ago by buying out last morsels from United Auto Workers retiree health trust. The mantra of the deal went as usual with the Big3. We provide you with a healthy dealership net, and you let us sink our teeth in your platforms, engines, and basically anything that rotates, whirs , and needs oiling. Including fine naturally aspirated engines, ravioli and finest dances of your COMAU articulated robots.
I remember their plans a couple years ago, how the fanfares would bleed my ears when insider stuntmen came forward ( and not cab forward!) with their winning strategies .One of them was Jeep compact SUV seeing daylight in 2013, which would be supplied by FIAT, and sitting atop Panda. Of course, not atop a real Panda, as it is among endangered species. The next was a Jeep small CUV, also supplied by FIAT, and was considered to replace Patriot and Compass. Isn`t it funny, an American badged vehicle named Patriot is actually built on a Mitsubishi GS platform-, let`s call it Lancer platform for rookies. Jeep Compass has the same problem- nesting atop Mitsu`s platform wielding keiretsu tentacles of know –how all along. Following the last would be Jeep Liberty( Liberty from domestic engineering , I surmise) which was to be replaced by a purebred Italian product badgeslapped with American heraldic logos. Moving along to Chrysler. Yes, indeed, it was drooling over FIAT` product portfolio and eventually sank fangs into a small car idea. Besides this weird interaction , Chrysler was thirsty for more orgies, begging for a FIAT compact sedan to show its underpinnings, so Chrysler could catch a replacement for PT Cruiser. Moving up the ladder- Chrysler Sebring, itself being a pure Mitsubishi Galant platform derivative was begging to be overhauled, and curiously enough found a panacea in sharing bed with FIAT for the next generation spawns. Dodge would learn the lesson and use its place at the table grabbing hot cookies right out of the FIAT cookie jar. FIAT would provide a platform for the upcoming new Avenger , and the aging Mitsu based Caliber would rejoice as well.
We learn from history that Chrysler has had an affair with Mercedes as well. This German frau was renowned for its elegance and feinschmeker taste, exquisite material texture and technological finesse. Albeit not all their stallions would be top notch in royalty and would sometimes graze in commercial fields. Such as commercial van fields. Following the tradition, Chrysler was unwilling to invest in building its own new commercial vans, or at least upgrade its Jurassic Dodge Ram van ( ramming in oblivion). So a solution was found- let`s exploit Mercedes Sprinter by simply renaming it a la Dodge . Now with a new partner in bed, FIAT is willing to spread its technological legs and provide Chrysler with pleasure of giving FIAT Ducato. The offspring would be rechristened Dodge Ram ProMaster with dogtags around the exterior approving its nuptial ties with mothership Chrysler. If eons ago Chrysler bothered to put lipstick on a pig or regrille the fascia, then today`s snoozing on nonexistent laurels has allowed Chrysler to go even further and try cheating the customer by simply stacking emblems on a Ducato copy. Who am I fooling? The same strategy was applied for Mercedes Sprinter.
Moving on to family values. One of breadwinners for Chrysler has been the 200 family, which neatly exploits Mitsubishi GS platform. Although Chrysler dastardly calls it a JS platform, we all know it is a Mitsu`s GS platform actually. So automatically Dodge copycats would receive the same platforms- Dodge Avenger, for example. Besides, Chrysler Sebring and Dodge Journey would be using the same GS spunoffs. Now with the introduction of FIAT offsprings, Dodge is riding FIAT`s C-EVO platform for its new Dodge Dart C-segmenter. It will also exploit FIAt`s 1.4 engines and Mitsu`s 2 liter and 2.4 liter engines, The last 2 got renamed by Chrysler `s metal aficianados as Tigersharks to sound more American. Coincidentally sounding more American doesn`t provide real jobs. Recently Chrysler also introduced the next gen 200, which is nothing more than a regrilled Dart. Few people noticed, but many rejoiced.
By stepping up the corporate ladder we come across the Chrysler 300, which is the top line luxury vehicle within the company, or more accurately near- luxury segment. Most likely it won`t surprise you that 300 has been riding all along on the previous generation Mercedes E-Klasse platform.( 300 has been assembled in Graz, Austria,` es geht doch`.) That was a result of the former painstaking marriage between a German engineering frontrunner and American wannabe. Dodge got a cheapened down version in shape of Dodge Charger from the same` Deutsch` platform. Although popular websites state that Chrysler introduced the second generation of Chrysler 300 in 2011, it is a bold lie. In order for a car to be called next generation one must have a complete new safety cage and tests, which implies that a-pillars, door frames( front doors), gas cap configuration must be made from zilch. This is not the case, the new` Chrysler 300 is just a nosejob on existing 300. Ditto the Charger- it doesn`t represent a 7th generation vehicle, as it is actually the same 6th gen vehicle with minor upgrades. Hardly a new generation. The same E-Klasse platform is under Dodge Challenger and Magnum. Oh, let`s not forget Chrysler Pacifica.
Thou shall not forget Jeep Grand Cherokee either. And grand it is indeed. Especially considering it is offroading the Rubicon on Mercedes M-Klasse platform for midsize crossovers. The derivative of the same platform is used for Dodge Durango as well. Talking about Jeeps, it is essential to mention Jeep Cherokee, which turns into a brand new generation of midsize crossover in 2014. After bleeding away its pure American engineering it now constitutes FIAT philosophy by applying C-EVO platform from Italy. The easiest way to be sure that a vehicle is still American is bowing down. And not in order to pay tribute , but to check if the car has rear live axle, leaf springs, and a masked OHV engine with a gargantuan displacement and questionable output . May I call them vegetarian horsepower? Unfortunately American pure domestic engineering is more synonimous with obsoletness, penny pinching technology, and questionable reliability, but I digress, and sigh….
In the end we will trace this vehicles, standing purebred Americana, with chrome leaking off solar albedo right in your face- off the large chrome grilles, aluminum bezeled cupholders and giant silvery sideview mirrors. These vehicles are cash cows for Chrysler, huge gas guzzlers for customers, and a weird reminder for Europeans, that giant displacement trucks have rather emotional application than practical cache. In the world of stealth, crossdressing, agility and sweltering competition their time is slowly coming to an end. This will put Chrysler at crossroads- either invent and prosper, or count beans and die. And if invention is not brought back here in continental US, new Detroits might stand as witness how a boomerang of short term profiting and greed might hit back later in shape of bankrupt steel cities, Delphi parts manufacturers and collapsing industrial base as such.

P.S. Thank you for your replies( including support and criticism), and be more specific when asking questions. My next rant might be about Ford.

"very interesting" You should have started a fresh thread or tacked this onto the Fiat owns Desoto thread. Where are your credits ? ---Trevor

Chip Chester said:

The prose appears heavily influenced by Car&Driver&Road&Track-speak. Every adjective must have embedded snark for maximum punch

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It's so full of snark it could be plagiarized...OP, why rant about Government Motors in the first place? That company is large but irrelevant. Nobody in the USA has looked to them for engineering inspiration since Arkus-Duntov died.

There was a thread about manufacturing in Britain. I think the decline of British manufacturing has the same traits as the decline in US manufacturing, so I will try to cover the main reasons for its collapse( viewing it from a car manufacturing prospective mostly)-

US car and precision manufacturing decline. Top reasons for decline.( not in particular order)-
1. Poor fit and finish. Us products have always had subpar fit and finish for their cars.( up until the outsourcing epidemic.) The first impression matters, and if the impression is that a car has wide gaps between panels, it turns customers away. if there are already flaws at the outer, visible layer of the car, what flaws might be hidden inside? The most obvious pattern was huge gaps between front and rear bumpers and fenders, bumpers, light blocks and hood . Interiors and huge gaps betwen dashboards and door panels, various buttons and radio controls. See Pontiac, Oldsmobile or various Chevy cars from mid 90ies up to mid 2000.
2. Poor material choice and texture. By poor material choice I mean shoddy plastics that tend to lose oils and shrink in size by time , making the gaps between panels even more annoying. Another factor is that once those oils evaporate the plastic becomes more fragile and tends to crack. Texture of materials is equally important. I have observed that texture of many US based car materials is subpar, dealing with poor texture of wood veneer, aluminum inserts or glossy surfaces. Definitely in no way to be compared with Audi interiors, even for their cheaper models.
3.Poor reliability of movements. Consumer Reports depreciation is already a sign that reliability of US built cars is questionable. If you add poor reliabilty with relatively primitive components they have been using up until outsourcing spree, it begs to question at what level is US precision engineering? I guess British reliability is even worse, if you consider the price range of parts.
4. Technological obsolescence. US car manufactures have been famous for using obsolete components for decades in their bread and butter cars. It stems from greed and short term thinking. (If it ain`t broken, ain`t fix it.) The usual suspects are leaf springs, OHV cast iron blocks, rear live axles, primitive gearboxes and various components a generation behind Japanese and Germans. For example, modern suspensions with 4 wheel steering or modern RWD platforms. US manuafcturers were last to remove leaf springs from minivans as well.
5. Poor product diversity. US car manufacturers were unwilling to invest in manifold body types of cars, such as coupes or wagons, or minivans. That niche was occupied by Japanese. Did you also know that Toyota manufactures more models of minivans than all US car manufacturers combined? None of Japanese minivans have a non-Japanese platform, while US has only 1 minivan platform left, that could be considered somewhat a modern US engineered one.( I even doubt that one.) Even with rising sales of crossovers the US manufacturers can`t offer the diversity equal to Japanese. Unfortunately US has only 3 big manufacturers left and their imitated diversity is a result of regrilling and rebadging, not offering of unique bodies and platforms or body types. Which leads to the next problem.
6. Imitation of diversity by rebadging and regrilling. US big 3 has been renowned for using imported cars and simply slapping domestic badges on them, be it Nummi affair with Toyota Matrix or Opel affair with Saturn, you be the judge. Regrilling is antoher stategy to imitate diversity. For example, Ford has been regrilling Fords as Mercurys ( Mercuries?) for decades adding only minor tweaks and refinement level by pouring more or less chrome and nailing more or less fake wood veneers. What did Geo or Eagle stand for? You could barely consider them brands. What did Saturn stand for, besides being a watered down Opel?
7. Poor engine diversity in naturally aspirated small displacement segment. Due to fuel prices one must adapt not only cars but their engines as well. All German and Japanese manufacturers learnt this aspect and worked heavily on various dislacement small engine blocks in order to please the customers, or rather their shrinking wallets. Germans would be well aware and offer 1.2, 1.4, up to huge 6 liter displacement turbocharged daredevils for their Merc and Audi top executive offerings. US didn`t learn from this, so their only solution was to import small displacement engines from abroad, on imported platforms .
8. Long product overhaul cycles. US car manufacturers lagged behind in this aspect as well, offering their model range for the longest period of time without engineering a next generation of vehicles. For example, how many generations of Honda Accords have been there in comparison to Ford Tauruses( Tauri?). Japanese have consistently been introducing a new generation of vehicles on average at 5 year-6 year cycle, while US companies were squeezing blood out of the stone for at least 8-10 years for each generation. This has also a strong reference to point 4.
9.Engineering outsourcing and decline in domestic expertize. The more complex a component the more likely a US car manufacturer will outsource the engineering to a foreign company. So don`t be surprised when a modern variator or Aisin or ZF gearbox comes from a foreign manufacturer , while a vanity visor is stamped at home. The most complex components- platforms, engines , gearboxes, actuators, radio modules and controls in most cases are borrowed from foreign companies. This leads to decline of domestic engineering expertize and ability to engineer and construct complex modules for your own vehicles independently.As a sad sideffect is increased unemployment due to lack of necessary skilled workforce to create such components.
10. The subsequent decline of related fields and domestic suppliers. US car manufacturing is not the sole segment that would have these traits, it goes along all industries dealing with precision movement manufacturing. For example, Japanese manufacturers would use local suppliers to utmost extreme degree. Their engines would have NGK spark plugs, the tyres would be Toyo, Yokohama or Bridgestone, actuators would come from Denso and all related machining of multiple axis robots would be Japan engineered and built as well. This not only preserves the highly skilled and paid workforce( strong middle class) but saves the crown jewel of Japanese industrial hegemony- superb engineering expertize. Expertize is the king, and if you don`t exercize it, you lose it. Not only US car manufacturers lose ability to engineer and build things( for example NAIAS 2014 was the first time in US car manufacturing history when not a single concept vehicle from a domestic manufacturer was shown.), they also lose ability to outsource locally, as the local manufacturers have the same faults as the big 3 in car industry. The decline is pandemic.

US complex manufacturing has been the interest of mine since childhood, since age 7 or 8. I put the dreams of American cars under the pillow before going to bed. I dreamt of American modern airplanes and gizmos, since I could remember. And every closure of a Kodak factory or Delphi plant was a personal tragedy for me as well. The sadness of losing good jobs and American pride of achievements was a tragedy for me as well. Every rustbelt factory and rusted roof of adjacent communities of people`s shattered hopes was an insult to me too. Every outsourced platform, rebadged TV set or a sad street of Detroit carved a small piece from my heart. Once a mighty nation that built Euclid excavators , Cincinnatti-Milacron machinery , Zenith TV sets and Hamilton wristwatches has turned into a shadow of itself. So sad, so sad. I didn`t want to be witness of that......

Don`t get me wrong I didn`t come here to spew asinine vitriol towards US manufacturing, but I rather do it for a wake up call. Besides I have been designing and building scale models for future applications in aviation for companies like Boeing and Sikorsky
. Here is one sample. It took me 6 weeks to build it. In the pic is Boeing 797. I will ad more pics if you don`t ban me.

Many of the responders have confused the issue of this thread. The point being made is engineering not manufacturing. Manufacturing is simple. When manufacturing begins to cost less in the US, it will return. If it is less expensive elsewhere, that will be where it will remain. Remember manufacturing in the future will not be labor based, as it will be done robotically. So even if manufacturing should return, it will never employ as many folks as it once did. By the way this manufacturing location decision will be based on the cost of energy not labor.

As far as engineering in the US, that decision will be talent based. If the US owns the talent, it will be in the US. Now, ask yourself where is this knowledge and skill based investment taking place? It isn't in the US.................work it out! This isn't rocket science!

To the OP "Advancedboy". It is clear you are literate and well read, but trying to impress the guys here in this forum is very hard to do. All of the readership here, with very few exceptions, are very skilled and knowledgeable. You, on the other hand, are young and very impressed with yourself. You think that your use of meaningless prose and personal opinion is the best way to introduce yourself and impress here is misguided. Please, in the future, state your point, list your references, ask your questions and keep to a singular subject. The readers here will not appreciate verbose, opinionated rants. I appreciated clarity, correct English and sentence structure with correct spelling and punctuation. I suspect the others here do as well.