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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Higher oil prices help the Global Warming crowd.

    Yep I guess they can point out higher cost. The use of our oil reserves has been offered quick and so it will stabilize the market. This is serious stuff disrupting oil shipped to customers in Europe open and all over.

    Iran likely supplied and facilitated these drone attacks. The Houthies are not making them. If drones took out the production now reduced due to sanctions in Iran then it would be a major assault on Iran. It is a assault on the Saudis for the destruction of their oil facilities. I think the involvement of the US is to calm the Saudis down so that war is not intensified or spread.

    Wars have started over a lot less.

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    Nonsense.

    How many people has Iran killed last 20 years ?
    vs.
    How many people has Saudi-supported Wahabi radicals killed last 20 years ?
    Most of the twin towers attacks were in that group, over 50%.

    The US has factually directly killed 200.000 civilians in Iraq, past 11 years.
    And the 70.000 drone strikes have probably killed at least 1-2 each, on average, on top.
    So, say 300.000 - 400.000 dead and 2 M displaced.

    (Sure, some of the killed were probably bad guys, depending.
    But most nearby were probably not.)

    Those are NOT attacks.
    They are refuttals using historic facts.
    You may not like the facts, and You may not like the way they are presented, but they are still historical facts.

    One (or You) might perhaps try to defend the US record of starting about 20-30 wars or military attacks, past 50 years, and or try to justify it, but simply pointing out this was done is not an attack on You or the USA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    How can you say Iran is not a sponsor without laughing?

    Not worth the effort responding to you really. Not many call your attitude which is nothing new in this forum.

    No one will bother much to confront your bias. Guess you are pretty happen things are this way because you can increase your attacks.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    Yep I guess they can point out higher cost. The use of our oil reserves has been offered quick and so it will stabilize the market. This is serious stuff disrupting oil shipped to customers in Europe open and all over.

    Iran likely supplied and facilitated these drone attacks. The Houthies are not making them. If drones took out the production now reduced due to sanctions in Iran then it would be a major assault on Iran. It is a assault on the Saudis for the destruction of their oil facilities. I think the involvement of the US is to calm the Saudis down so that war is not intensified or spread.

    Wars have started over a lot less.
    Recall Obahma first term, when he stated he "Wanted to see $7.00 a gallon gas"

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    Has anyone glanced at the Supply/demand curves for crude?
    I don’t have them right in front of me but thought the supply side was fat by a few million barrels/day?

    I think in other words the current market can absorb the loss of production this attack represents.

    I see Brent futures are rolling over a bit today.
    I like to say - every price move is on the chart.
    Crude has been in gradual decline in price with sideward trade for some time.
    Is anyone calling that this event is going to change the crude market from that trajectory..?

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    Yes sir, those Russians were the heroes of the day, saving the poor Poles from, er, who??

    Katyn massacre - Wikipedia

    Russian propaganda, just slightly more credible than the Chinese variant...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Nonsense.

    How many people has Iran killed last 20 years ?
    vs.
    How many people has Saudi-supported Wahabi radicals killed last 20 years ?
    Most of the twin towers attacks were in that group, over 50%.

    The US has factually directly killed 200.000 civilians in Iraq, past 11 years.
    And the 70.000 drone strikes have probably killed at least 1-2 each, on average, on top.
    So, say 300.000 - 400.000 dead and 2 M displaced.

    (Sure, some of the killed were probably bad guys, depending.
    But most nearby were probably not.)

    Those are NOT attacks.
    They are refuttals using historic facts.
    You may not like the facts, and You may not like the way they are presented, but they are still historical facts.

    One (or You) might perhaps try to defend the US record of starting about 20-30 wars or military attacks, past 50 years, and or try to justify it, but simply pointing out this was done is not an attack on You or the USA.
    how much are 200'000 Iraqi civs lives in petrodollars? Exactly. (... it's 0)

    I don't feel bad quoting wikipedia because these protocols have been in public domain since Nurenberg trials and originals are available for inspection if you need to.

    Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia

    the treaty included a secret protocol that defined the borders of Soviet and German "spheres of influence" in the event of possible rearrangement of the territories belonging to Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland. The secret protocol also recognised the interest of Lithuania in the Vilno region; in addition, Germany declared complete disinterest in Bessarabia. The Secret Protocol was just a rumour until it was made public at the Nuremberg trials.[9]
    Russian federation still denies that up 'til June '41 it was allied with Nazi Germany, providing them with supplies and warm encouragements. according to them WWII officially started in 41, not in 39. I can't blame them, but I can't believe them.

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    Iranian state sponsorship of terror organizations such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, Islamic Jihad, ISIS, Yemen's Houti rebels, the Musllim Brotherhood and countless new jihad groups forming in Africa...

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    You might want to check the veracity and appropriateness of some of those those claims.

    Iran has been supporting the Syrian and Iraqi Governments against IS not for it. The US is supporting the rebels in Syria.

    Yemen's Houthi rebels are the ones who were there before the Saudis started their invasion/regime change efforts in Yemen.

    The Muslim Brotherhood's main supporters are Qatar and Turkey. Their main detractors are the current Egyptian government and the current US executive. They have always decried violence.

    Hamas is the elected government in Gaza, and is an offshoot from the Muslim Brotherhood. They are regarded as terrorists. They are also regarded as defending the Palestinians from ever increasing pressure from the state of Israel.

    PLO and Islamic Jihad terrorist organisations with similar aims and supported by Iran.

    Compare this with an average of $1.88B per year of military aid to Israel from the US since 1947, currently at $3.8B/year. Not all of this aid is used for purely 'defensive' activities in the middle east...

    A lot of this stuff depends on which direction one is looking at it from. You know, like NORAID and the Provisional IRA...


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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    ...The US has factually directly killed 200.000 civilians in Iraq, past 11 years.
    That's an extraordinary claim. Post your source.

    The Iraq Body Count Project?
    The Iraq Body Count project (IBC) figure of documented civilian deaths from violence is 183,535 – 206,107 through April 2019. This includes reported civilian deaths due to Coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence.[8] The IBC site states: "many deaths will probably go unreported or unrecorded by officials and media.

    Iraq Body Count project data shows that the type of attack that resulted in the most civilian deaths was execution after abduction or capture. These accounted for 33% of civilian deaths and were overwhelmingly carried out by unknown actors including insurgents, sectarian militias and criminals.[88]

    The Iraq Body Count project (IBC project), incorporating subsequent reports, has reported that by the end of the major combat phase up to April 30, 2003, 7,419 civilians had been killed, primarily by U.S. air-and-ground forces.[8][87]

    Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia
    The estimates vary by a very wide margin depending on who is counting, how they make their estimates, and who they include as civilians. I can cite numerous examples, and guess what? None of them agree with each other.

    I want to see proof that your claim is factual and directly caused by US forces. We weren't the ones bombing mosques and markets, or kidnapping and killing civilians.

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    I'm still waiting for him to give his proof/sources for figures over in the Brexit thread. He makes a lot of claims but has so far never answered the three times I asked him where he got his numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    I'm still waiting for him to give his proof/sources for figures over in the Brexit thread. He makes a lot of claims but has so far never answered the three times I asked him where he got his numbers.
    He never supports his assertions, because he intentionally misstates the numbers- or just pulls them out of thin air (more often than not).

    But he makes up for it by telling us how much of an expert he is on everything...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Nonsense.

    How many people has Iran killed last 20 years ?
    vs.
    How many people has Saudi-supported Wahabi radicals killed last 20 years ?
    Most of the twin towers attacks were in that group, over 50%.

    The US has factually directly killed 200.000 civilians in Iraq, past 11 years.
    And the 70.000 drone strikes have probably killed at least 1-2 each, on average, on top.
    So, say 300.000 - 400.000 dead and 2 M displaced.

    (Sure, some of the killed were probably bad guys, depending.
    But most nearby were probably not.)

    Those are NOT attacks.
    They are refuttals using historic facts.
    You may not like the facts, and You may not like the way they are presented, but they are still historical facts.

    One (or You) might perhaps try to defend the US record of starting about 20-30 wars or military attacks, past 50 years, and or try to justify it, but simply pointing out this was done is not an attack on You or the USA.

    You and EG are accusing the American soldier as the murderers. You just have again. Your stats are made up out of thin air as usual. You have the usual supporters to like what you post.

    That is too bad.

    Yet it is not as bad as the education you have had to believe crap like that.

    You remind me of the way Russians tell the story of Syria, Hezbollah, and the houthies. Add to that those who have been doing the killing in Iraq that is the real ones responsible. I do not care what ridiculous crap you post the American soldier has a place of honor in this world and does not murder civilians.

    I think you owe a apology to them and us who have served and have loved ones serving. I think you will not.

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    Hitler and Stalin had a agreement to not attack each other. Russia invaded from the East on the 17th and on the 1st Hitler in the West. (1939) Hitler broke the agreement and invaded Poland and then Russia.

    There are some things about mass grave sites that the Russians filled from that time of course the whole thing is a mess as so many were killed off.

    The United States did not wage war like Stalin and Hitler.

    A link about Russia invading Poland.


    One and the other agreed on what they wanted in Poland. One or the other invaded first yet the agreement is well documented. There are Polish soldiers buried in graves dug by Russians before Germany actually invaded Russia proper.

    Soviet invasion of Poland - Wikipedia
    Last edited by Trueturning; 09-17-2019 at 11:54 PM.

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  21. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Israel.
    The US politics and funding system has a lot of israeli people/money/influence, and israel is worried about Iran as a competitor if it got into the normal world trade system.

    Iran is a 80M person rich, educated country that would immediately buy a huge amount of american goods and EU goods, leading to Iran becoming the leading regional power in a few years 5-10 trending 7.

    Iran is not a state sponsor of terrorism on a mass scale.
    Maybe saudi arabia, pakistan, but iran - no.
    Sorry, got to call bullshit on that last. Iran certainly *is* a state terrorism sponsor on a mass scale, there's no doubt at all of that.

    Saudi Arabia with their nutcase Wahabist sect is just as bad, sure. All the shit they're getting WRT drones, they richly deserve. And Pakistan - if India ever nukes them, it'll be because they deserved it.

    But let's not give Iran even a gnat's whisker of a pass.

    Pox on the lot of them IMO.

    PDW

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  23. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    You and EG are accusing the American soldier as the murderers. You just have again. Your stats are made up out of thin air as usual. You have the usual supporters to like what you post.

    That is too bad.

    Yet it is not as bad as the education you have had to believe crap like that.

    You remind me of the way Russians tell the story of Syria, Hezbollah, and the houthies. Add to that those who have been doing the killing in Iraq that is the real ones responsible. I do not care what ridiculous crap you post the American soldier has a place of honor in this world and does not murder civilians.
    Did you *sleep* through the Vietnam War? Or did you learn nothing from it?

    Hint - google My Lai and then come back & tell us that American soldiers don't kill civilians wantonly.

    Not to mention drone strikes into wedding parties.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    ...Hint - google My Lai and then come back & tell us that American soldiers don't kill civilians wantonly.
    I think hanermo was talking about more recent events.

    Do you believe that a war crime committed 51 years ago is representative of the US Military today? Did you serve? Did any members of your family serve? Any serving today?

    I don't think you need to worry if Trueturning has ever heard of My Lai. We hear about it all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Not to mention drone strikes into wedding parties.
    Obama's drone program was run by the CIA. CENTCOM had no input on any targeting decisions.
    Last edited by jancollc; 09-17-2019 at 10:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    I agree with you on oil vs the general market, but disagree about the other issues. In fact, the very things like health care, inequality, financialization....these are things that will probably keep the market going up. . .
    Until it doesn't. You're likely right in the short term. However, at some point people lose faith in the institutions that are ripping them off.

    Consumer confidence plummets. We see populists emerging left and right. And the financial order that rewards a health care industry spending 2x of people's money; and wages are stagnant as some in the .1% prosper; and maybe we have another stupid war -- then there's anger and some chaos. As the guys who brought us the Great Recession top themselves in G.R. 2.0 - then the market goes down again. At least that's my take -- we're not yet anywhere close to figuring out how to have a long-term sustainable economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Did you *sleep* through the Vietnam War? Or did you learn nothing from it?

    Hint - google My Lai and then come back & tell us that American soldiers don't kill civilians wantonly.

    Not to mention drone strikes into wedding parties.

    PDW
    That first comment is snarky . I contested the numbers given by Hamnermo. You know the killing of innocent civilians is not the mission of American soldiers. My Lai is a good example of that.

    Since war has always had civilian deaths and casualties the difference is in mission and what the Military stands for my point once again is that it is not the mission nor the code to live by.

    When all of these numbers are tagged against American soldiers proves it is bogus anyway. Americans are very good always at lessening the circumstance of civilian casualties. The others which are directly contributing to wanton and premeditated murder are the ones which have been covered. They are not American. My Lai was a exception and every one should understand it is not the rule. I know that and respect it even though someone else may choose to post the opposite view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc123 View Post
    I agree with you on oil vs the general market, but disagree about the other issues. In fact, the very things like health care, inequality, financialization....these are things that will probably keep the market going up. Healthcare is a very profitable sector, financialization allows more assets to have money poured in, inequality just gets worse with these things. Having a medicare-for-all system will undoubtedly make the market go down because healthcare will take a hit in profitability
    I think he's right about this, PeteM. What that means is, the Dow should not be interpreted as a sign of the health of the US economy. We should see it as an indicator of the disease that is eating up the US.


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