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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    Owners are supposed to do that,that is why they invest.
    Without their investment you don't have a job,get over it.
    Meh...
    Investment and return needn’t be exploitive.
    Given a choice between “making” 100 million, 200 million or “making nothing, 100 million instead of 200 still makes sense.

    Besides. Since automation eliminates jobs your base premise is faulty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve in SoCal View Post
    I did and, must have missed something in translation. Population growth is a function of having the fuel, food to grow. Just because there is billions of people doesn't mean they have jobs that produce goods or services.

    Steve
    You're being obtuse. Look it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Meh...
    Investment and return needn’t be exploitive.
    Given a choice between “making” 100 million, 200 million or “making nothing, 100 million instead of 200 still makes sense.

    Besides. Since automation eliminates jobs your base premise is faulty.
    You are using the word exploitive,I am not,so please don't feed me with your communistic comments.
    When did automation eliminate jobs? More people are in gainful employment than ever before so I think your base premise is faulty.
    Automation has really hurt the Chinese people hasn't it.
    You are just trying to be stupid but you need more practice, keep practicing, you are nearly there.

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    Like others have already said in various forms,"its gotta make economical sense to justify automating a process", over having it done by humans.

    My one foray into automation thus far is material cutting and marking out. It really comes into its own on repeat production jobs, especially where there are complicated shapes and a lot of marking out involved. Better consistancy with producing multiple cutout shapes than what a human would achieve, in the same time.

    But as per doing it all manually: the fabric needs to be loaded up, rolled out and squared to the alignment marks, so no time saved there with my setup. A lot more $ would need to be spent to automate this process further. Would need more production volume to justify doing so.

    So for many small, one off jobs, then not much saving.

    The point here is there is still many tasks that automation isn't yet a viable option. Mainly small scale, one off jobs. But machinery is always improving, so am keeping an eye out on developments in this regard.

    In most industries, folk need to keep their skills up to date with current trends. The days of just doing the same thing in the same firm for your entire working life are over for most. For me finding folk who are more than just "production drones" continues to be a challenge. Versatile people who can/are prepared to think out side the box are looked upon favourably. I recon that goes for many other industries as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    How can anyone profit from Automation when they are not engineering and making these robots?
    Is this a serious question?

    I profit from automation when I use cruise control for a 2 hour drive. I actually save time, feel less strain, and am fresher when I get there.
    I have friends who have adaptive cruise control in new cars, and they love it.

    But any shop that buys a 5 axis machine will make better parts, cheaper- and profit. And making the machine yourself is certainly not a necessity.
    Any mechanic that buys a ECM diagnostic machine will make more profit than a mechanic who just guesses that the EGR valve is bad, when it may not be.

    Any tailor that used to embroider the names on workers shirts by turning the cloth in the sewing machine, and now uses a computer embroidery machine will profit.

    Certainly the robot makers are one segment of automation, but far from the only one. PLC's in all kinds of things, from heating systems to traffic signals, make people money, make things work better, and certainly qualify as "automation" but are much simpler than robots.

    My tea pot is programable to make 8 different temperatures of hot water- thats automation. And it saves me the time of monitoring the old Mark 1 manual kettle, and taking it off at just the right moment.

    My simple variable speed power table feed for the manual mill is automation- and it means I can start a cut, and, then go do something else, and come back when its done, crank in a new cut depth, and run it back the other way. Dead simple, profitable, I wouldnt want to live without it, and its is, without a doubt, automation.

    A poster here, Motion Guru, designed and installed a control system for a lumber mill a few miles from me- with over 120 axis of motion. Automation, at a very high scale. And, as he has mentioned here- he ended up getting screwed by the contractor- which means, he did the opposite of what you ask- he designed and engineered and made the "robots", and then made no profit.

    The profit of making robots is a tiny part of it.
    You could not do any milling without somebody making the inserts- but you wouldnt ask- "how can anyone profit from milling if they are not engineering and making the inserts?", would you?

    Every industry I know of has profited from automation.
    Individual workers may not- but our system is not extremely concerned with individual workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    Losing jobs because of automation has been happening since the year dot.
    Consider making a screw. Originally made by hand,then a dead bog basic lathe,turret lathe,cam auto and cold heading.
    How many men did it take to make a Model T Ford?how many to make a Ford Focus?
    This is just a couple of examples in engineering,it has, and is, happening in all industries.
    exactly. The fact is despite continued rapid productivity gains from automation and technology for centuries, i.e the tractor, the US has full employment. It always surprise me the people who fear productivity gains, yet that is why live the way we do (compare that to how someone does in the third world). If its jobs you want, take away the backhoe and give the men shovels

    If you really fear this and think YOUR job is at risk, the only question worth your energy is what you should be doing to prepare for the change. What can you do is a legitimate question we should be asking, overall society will be just fine, but many individuals get hurt from change...... so how do you set yourself up to minimize that or even prosper from the change?

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    Fair enough . Lots of automation. I notice companies now which have the robot arm for loading and unloading. I have not seen one yet being used. Besides there is more to running a machine than just loading material.

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    There is a saying-
    All Hardware fails, eventually.
    All Software works, eventually.

    With automation, especially these days, its all about the software.
    There will always be people needed, but software is making huge strides.

    3D shaping of sheet metal is more labor intensive, harder, and rarer to master than simple machining.
    Used to be there were only a few gurus in the whole world who were really good at it.

    now there is a robot.
    Efficient Fabrication of Double Curves in Architecture — Zahner
    watch the video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Fair enough . Lots of automation. I notice companies now which have the robot arm for loading and unloading. I have not seen one yet being used. Besides there is more to running a machine than just loading material.
    But it isn't all about robots. I went into a Ford factory which was machining engine blocks. A rough casting in one end,a finished,inspected block out the other. The only human labour was one man loading the rough castings. Not a robot anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    Fair enough . Lots of automation. I notice companies now which have the robot arm for loading and unloading. I have not seen one yet being used. Besides there is more to running a machine than just loading material.
    Its perhaps partially nomenclature, people wet their pants at robots and AI, but tell them new technology has improved productivity and thus global competitiveness and those same people are supportive. Robots and AI are really just so much BS imo, in the sense that they are just words describing technology. How's a CNC machine not a robot? Anyone think our society and economy would be better getting rid of them all? As for AI, software types laugh at the hype - Explain y=mx+b and some clown will run with it thinking its line defining AI. From what I've read the software industry considers the hype around AI a bit of joke - y=mx + b, but its a current fad good for funding. If I remember correctly, Michio Kaku in Physics of the future, of all the technological possibilities being explored, he's least bullish on realizing AI. Greater odds for teleportation.

    From 40,000 feet, all any of this is is technology letting is up moving up Maslow's hierarchy. Labour is a resource, free it up from the drudgery of meeting a lower need, its employed meeting a higher one as has been continually proven over time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Is this a serious question?

    I profit from automation when I use cruise control for a 2 hour drive. I actually save time, feel less strain, and am fresher when I get there.
    I have friends who have adaptive cruise control in new cars, and they love it.

    But any shop that buys a 5 axis machine will make better parts, cheaper- and profit. And making the machine yourself is certainly not a necessity.
    Any mechanic that buys a ECM diagnostic machine will make more profit than a mechanic who just guesses that the EGR valve is bad, when it may not be.

    Any tailor that used to embroider the names on workers shirts by turning the cloth in the sewing machine, and now uses a computer embroidery machine will profit.

    Certainly the robot makers are one segment of automation, but far from the only one. PLC's in all kinds of things, from heating systems to traffic signals, make people money, make things work better, and certainly qualify as "automation" but are much simpler than robots.

    My tea pot is programable to make 8 different temperatures of hot water- thats automation. And it saves me the time of monitoring the old Mark 1 manual kettle, and taking it off at just the right moment.

    My simple variable speed power table feed for the manual mill is automation- and it means I can start a cut, and, then go do something else, and come back when its done, crank in a new cut depth, and run it back the other way. Dead simple, profitable, I wouldnt want to live without it, and its is, without a doubt, automation.

    A poster here, Motion Guru, designed and installed a control system for a lumber mill a few miles from me- with over 120 axis of motion. Automation, at a very high scale. And, as he has mentioned here- he ended up getting screwed by the contractor- which means, he did the opposite of what you ask- he designed and engineered and made the "robots", and then made no profit.

    The profit of making robots is a tiny part of it.
    You could not do any milling without somebody making the inserts- but you wouldnt ask- "how can anyone profit from milling if they are not engineering and making the inserts?", would you?

    Every industry I know of has profited from automation.
    Individual workers may not- but our system is not extremely concerned with individual workers.
    You ask that question. Yes I am serious as I see Automation effecting jobs in the short term. There is no way that automation does not restructure jobs in the short term otherwise it would not be done.I am concerned because of our children in the competitive world ahead. Honest!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    You ask that question. Yes I am serious as I see Automation effecting jobs in the short term. There is no way that automation does not restructure jobs in the short term otherwise it would not be done.I am concerned because of our children in the competitive world ahead. Honest!
    Agreed,

    So what do we do? Short of relying on luck, its going to take some change in how people view their lives and careers. The pace of change is only likely to increase so those that acknowledge that the greater responsibility they will have to take for their own survival will fair the best, imo

    imo the defence against rapid change displacing you likely lies in developing versatility and self imposed continuing ed. The old model is gone, insuring your future means you have to take responsibility for education and developing versatility. If you're stacking something on a pallet and a robot replaces you, could you do maintenance, sales, book keeping, whatever? Fact is you can, but do you think you can, can you figure how to get competent at it etc.

    The buggy whip manufacturing workers once upon a time likely had a tough go of it, some cried and mopped, some learned how to turn a wrench. As an individual or for you children, you to be mentally prepared for that and decide to be in wrench turning group. No doubt easy to say, its bit trite or disingenuous even....but the reality is, if you're in that situation, what choice do you have?. Point is, the tough get going and all....not sure in the era of everyone gets a trophy, mom stomps into the school (or even office) to do you battles, no one fails and the instant gratification from video games that anyone's being taught self responsibility and the tough get going etc. Teach your kids that.

    Change also creates opportunity, new ways and domains to excel in. New generations of kids who knock it out of the park. Through my four kids going through the local public school, I know two of their friends who are worth over $100MM. Obviously way easier to say than do, but don't lose site of the fact that change creates big opportunities

    Here's a straight forward one you can do for you kids, give them a fighting chance at decent EQ. Without googling....did you know what EQ is? You should if you have kids. Emotional Intelligence, something that is declining with the enormous screen time kids have now. I predict it will become such a problem (perhaps already is) that organizations will highly value people with those basic skills our generation takes for granted - understand a commitment, taking responsibility, interacting with others, dealing with disappointment, challenges and failure, empathy, leadership, communication and conversation. and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    You are using the word exploitive,I am not,so please don't feed me with your communistic comments.
    When did automation eliminate jobs? More people are in gainful employment than ever before so I think your base premise is faulty.
    Automation has really hurt the Chinese people hasn't it.
    You are just trying to be stupid but you need more practice, keep practicing, you are nearly there.
    It’s hurting the Chinese people now.
    Those lower skilled jobs are moving to other nations.
    That said, China has made is a matter of public policy to have a more broad based economy.

    The term exploit only has negative connotations if you are feeling defensive.
    The choice of reinvesting in your staff or extracting the profit stream is a pretty simple on based broadly on how many houses you feel you deserve simply because you own the machines.

    When has automation eliminated jobs...
    Try coal mining and steel mills for elephants in the room.

    This is my industry, ROI is counted in man hours eliminated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    But it isn't all about robots. I went into a Ford factory which was machining engine blocks. A rough casting in one end,a finished,inspected block out the other. The only human labour was one man loading the rough castings. Not a robot anywhere.
    Strictly speaking that's a transfer line, which even considering the incorporation of CNC-controlled stations is still old-time "hard automation." Back in the day some called the whole machine a robot, the distinction being somewhat moot because even in its earliest form it took away a bunch of jobs.

    But what kind of jobs? Humping cast iron in a drill fixture is a man-killer. My position (based on replacing pecking with a 1-1/2 drill—and a long handle—with G83, to cite one example) is that CNC has with few exceptions taken the hard labor out of machine work. Adding workpiece loading/unloading robots takes out even more. OK, sure—what job is left involves more study and preparation. Those with strong backs and weak minds have fewer career opportunities in manufacturing, but that merely continues the trend recognized and protested by the followers of Ned Ludd.

    I like that example of 100 Bridgeports. Not only are those operator jobs gone but most of the jobs at Bridgeport are gone as well. Was that somehow a disadvantage for American or European manufacturing? Not hardly. Nobody noticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    It’s hurting the Chinese people now.
    Those lower skilled jobs are moving to other nations.
    That said, China has made is a matter of public policy to have a more broad based economy.

    The term exploit only has negative connotations if you are feeling defensive.
    The choice of reinvesting in your staff or extracting the profit stream is a pretty simple on based broadly on how many houses you feel you deserve simply because you own the machines.

    When has automation eliminated jobs...
    Try coal mining and steel mills for elephants in the room.

    This is my industry, ROI is counted in man hours eliminated.
    Yes, China is automating as we speak. It may be causing trouble for workers but that's not what everyone is complaining about over there. Most of the people I met last time I went was the increasing dedication to cleaning up the environment. If you don't follow the stricter regulations the government comes and unplugs your whole operation for a week or two. Maybe the two going hand in hand will keep the balance. Only time will tell.

    Regarding ROI being counted in man hours eliminated, that's only a bad thing if you're feeling defensive. That counts man hours eliminated from a specific task, not from the workforce entirely. Those man hours "eliminated" can be applied to literally anything else productive, unless the worker is stubborn and thinks "I want to make VCR tapes by hand like my pappy, and my grandpappy, and nothing else will do"

    And based on your opinion of ownership, I wonder if you have ever in your life spoken with an individual who has founded a company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxcarPete View Post
    Yes, China is automating as we speak. It may be causing trouble for workers but that's not what everyone is complaining about over there. Most of the people I met last time I went was the increasing dedication to cleaning up the environment. If you don't follow the stricter regulations the government comes and unplugs your whole operation for a week or two. Maybe the two going hand in hand will keep the balance. Only time will tell.

    Regarding ROI being counted in man hours eliminated, that's only a bad thing if you're feeling defensive. That counts man hours eliminated from a specific task, not from the workforce entirely. Those man hours "eliminated" can be applied to literally anything else productive, unless the worker is stubborn and thinks "I want to make VCR tapes by hand like my pappy, and my grandpappy, and nothing else will do"

    And based on your opinion of ownership, I wonder if you have ever in your life spoken with an individual who has founded a company.
    Like my dad?
    There’s a difference between starting a firm and just owning things.
    I wonder if you’ve ever spent time around people that inherited their position and still think they are “earning” their way.


    As for jobs eliminated...unless new tasks are created, jobs are eliminated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    Agreed,

    So what do we do? Short of relying on luck, its going to take some change in how people view their lives and careers. The pace of change is only likely to increase so those that acknowledge that the greater responsibility they will have to take for their own survival will fair the best, imo

    imo the defence against rapid change displacing you likely lies in developing versatility and self imposed continuing ed. The old model is gone, insuring your future means you have to take responsibility for education and developing versatility. If you're stacking something on a pallet and a robot replaces you, could you do maintenance, sales, book keeping, whatever? Fact is you can, but do you think you can, can you figure how to get competent at it etc.

    The buggy whip manufacturing workers once upon a time likely had a tough go of it, some cried and mopped, some learned how to turn a wrench. As an individual or for you children, you to be mentally prepared for that and decide to be in wrench turning group. No doubt easy to say, its bit trite or disingenuous even....but the reality is, if you're in that situation, what choice do you have?. Point is, the tough get going and all....not sure in the era of everyone gets a trophy, mom stomps into the school (or even office) to do you battles, no one fails and the instant gratification from video games that anyone's being taught self responsibility and the tough get going etc. Teach your kids that.

    Change also creates opportunity, new ways and domains to excel in. New generations of kids who knock it out of the park. Through my four kids going through the local public school, I know two of their friends who are worth over $100MM. Obviously way easier to say than do, but don't lose site of the fact that change creates big opportunities

    Here's a straight forward one you can do for you kids, give them a fighting chance at decent EQ. Without googling....did you know what EQ is? You should if you have kids. Emotional Intelligence, something that is declining with the enormous screen time kids have now. I predict it will become such a problem (perhaps already is) that organizations will highly value people with those basic skills our generation takes for granted - understand a commitment, taking responsibility, interacting with others, dealing with disappointment, challenges and failure, empathy, leadership, communication and conversation. and so on.
    If you define EQ as getting their noses out of their phones, then true, nothing really departs from the trend of the past fifty or a hundred years, back to the buggy-whip era. Before smartphones it was pot. Do your homework and you'll be retrainable, don't do it and get used to shit jobs. Nothing new here except a new acronym...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    It’s hurting the Chinese people now.
    Those lower skilled jobs are moving to other nations.
    That said, China has made is a matter of public policy to have a more broad based economy.

    The term exploit only has negative connotations if you are feeling defensive.
    The choice of reinvesting in your staff or extracting the profit stream is a pretty simple on based broadly on how many houses you feel you deserve simply because you own the machines.

    When has automation eliminated jobs...
    Try coal mining and steel mills for elephants in the room.

    This is my industry, ROI is counted in man hours eliminated.
    It's hurting the Chinese people now? They are better off than they have ever been.
    The word(not term,word) exploit is a negative,nasty word, you cannot paint a rosy picture of that word. Give me one example of it being positive.
    Coal mining was killed by clean air acts and lung diseases.
    Evidently the steel mill industry is growing in the USA thanks to that bloke er um oh you know,thingy,wosisname,that blokey bloke in the White House.
    So,once again you have failed to do a wind up,re-read your school report,must try harder.
    On another subject,notice you still claim to live in Denver, thank God it's not the Denver that I live in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    It's hurting the Chinese people now? They are better off than they have ever been.
    The word(not term,word) exploit is a negative,nasty word, you cannot paint a rosy picture of that word. Give me one example of it being positive.
    Coal mining was killed by clean air acts and lung diseases.
    Evidently the steel mill industry is growing in the USA thanks to that bloke er um oh you know,thingy,wosisname,that blokey bloke in the White House.
    So,once again you have failed to do a wind up,re-read your school report,must try harder.
    On another subject,notice you still claim to live in Denver, thank God it's not the Denver that I live in.
    Exploit...used all the time in texvnical context.
    Leverage, use, exploit.
    To use to maximum advantage.

    I exploit an opponents weakness when playing bridge.


    The coal jobs lost to automation happened decades ago.
    Steel manufacturing is expanding, the number of jobs is minimal due to automation.

    I’m skeptical of the expansion of production in the steel industry.
    I suspect that when the new...more efficient (automated) facilities come on line the older facilities will close.
    We already have the capacity we need, there’s no good business case for long term expansion.

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    I think it started in the metal cutting world with not having a foot treadle on your turning machine.

    In the 60's and 70's all "detail" or smaller than 1000 man shops where manual mills and lathes.
    I had rows of many B-ports.
    If you wanted to make a custom form, radius, or even just a pulley groove you ordered or made a special tool. CNCs killed all this and are the biggest automation change I've seen in my years.
    Feed raw stock in one side and pop a finished engine block out the on a transfer line is way older than me.

    This CNC thing has been a huge revolution yet the VMC is now accepted as standard equipment.
    Why, because it's easier and you get more done at a lower cost. That may mean higher profits or lower end user price.

    Yes it kills jobs and reduces the people employed.
    Is this good or bad as it also makes products more affordable to customers?

    One can and should read "Player piano" but it is wrong on so many tangents. The Luddites have to come to mind in this conflict.
    My first oh-shit, can't sleep, am I on the right side moment came with machine vision in the 80's.
    The stuff I built eliminated my best friend wife's job.

    Automation means you need less workers, it also means you can afford to pay them a decent wage.
    Should we back wages down to $3 per hour and not use such? Does anyone win by doing so?
    You would employ more people at a same price output so if it's simply a headcount of people employed.......
    Bob

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