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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    From the link:

    ....according to Bloomberg, Walmart which just a few days ago reported blowout earnings thanks to surging online sales, is eliminating the graveyard shift in hundreds of stores while expanding the use of a "labor-saving product sorting machine"....

    Walmart Replacing Overnight Shifts With "Labor-Saving Machines"; Eliminates Store Greeters | Zero Hedge

    Some decent comments at the story, some crap ones also.
    About ten years ago a local grocery chain went automated.
    5 to 10 people pack all the dry goods for the entire city.
    3 to 5 are in machine tending.
    Since all sales are tracked at the POS in the store only spot inventory is needed. Store orders are pretty much automatic.
    The manager clicks on “approve” and the database is updated.
    The warehouse reads the database and starts feeding totes to the pickers.
    Maintains its own database and sends it up the food chain.
    When the trucks come in they are un packed and put in totes that go put themselves away.

    1000 jobs gone...
    More than that if you throw in the productivity gains the machine designers and manufacturers used to build that warehouse.

  2. #102
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    The more automation then the less people have those jobs because they are eliminated.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    The more automation then the less people have those jobs because they are eliminated.
    And it doesn't matter. There are more people in gainful employment now than there ever has been.

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  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    The more automation then the less people have those jobs because they are eliminated.

    Is automation creating a larger pool of "useless eaters"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    And it doesn't matter. There are more people in gainful employment now than there ever has been.

    In simple terms in the US people are no longer listed as unemployed once the benefits run out. So if a worker can not find a job and is dropped from the unemployment benefit list that worker is no longer listed as unemployed. Most likely people who quit or are fired are not counted either. So all the people in the walmart story above who will be forced to quit their jobs wont even be counted as unemployed. This makes the USA economy look better.

    Missing Workers: The Missing Part of the Unemployment Story | Economic Policy Institute

    Make-Believe America: Why the US Unemployment Rate Doesn't Indicate Economic Recovery

    Employment Lies -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org

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  8. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    And it doesn't matter. There are more people in gainful employment now than there ever has been.
    The phrase “gainfull employment” is pretty vague.

    More to the point, there are also more unemployed people.
    The ratio and wage values are what matters to a broad based economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    The phrase “gainfull employment” is pretty vague.

    More to the point, there are also more unemployed people.
    The ratio and wage values are what matters to a broad based economy.
    If,IF, you do not understand the phrase gainful employment then you are
    1/ being obtuse
    2/ being a prize prat
    Despite all the advances in production of everything there are,as a percentage in some, but not all cases,a lot more people employed than ever before. Yes people have had to change employment,does that matter? Not in the least, people are living longer,eating better,and have more leisure time. Tell me I'm wrong,no,tell me I'm wrong without the bullshit.

  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    If,IF, you do not understand the phrase gainful employment then you are
    1/ being obtuse
    2/ being a prize prat
    Despite all the advances in production of everything there are,as a percentage in some, but not all cases,a lot more people employed than ever before. Yes people have had to change employment,does that matter? Not in the least, people are living longer,eating better,and have more leisure time. Tell me I'm wrong,no,tell me I'm wrong without the bullshit.
    Subsistence farming is gainful, and your labor is employed.
    But at least you can eat.
    Walmart greeter?
    Drug mule?
    Prostitute?

    Paris Hilton or a Walmart cousin?


    Perhaps it’s different over there but our life span is declining and we are working more hours to get by in the last three or four decades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    In simple terms in the US people are no longer listed as unemployed once the benefits run out.
    That is not correct. Read up on how the Bureau of Labour statistics does the survey/calcs

  12. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    That is not correct. Read up on how the Bureau of Labour statistics does the survey/calcs
    OK maybe I did not get the exact reasons why people are dropped right but the links speak of it better than I can.
    Show me where in the BLS they do not drop people off the list of unemployed after some amount of time, eh.

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    I know that in fact that developments in automation lessen jobs and that those jobs or the people must find employment. That is the nature of things. I hope the economy is strong enough to provide them. The automation could depending on the implementation of it cause more people out of work than the economy can rehire. I would think under those circumstances the public and the innovators would be careful about the unemployed or restructured workers. That is the right thing to do. It can be done I believe in the name of progress. I have not reviewed the idea that overall it is better yet I have seen evidence that it has. Not extensively is what I mean. I am open to the issue though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinit View Post
    I know that in fact that developments in automation lessen jobs and that those jobs or the people must find employment. That is the nature of things. I hope the economy is strong enough to provide them. The automation could depending on the implementation of it cause more people out of work than the economy can rehire. I would think under those circumstances the public and the innovators would be careful about the unemployed or restructured workers. That is the right thing to do. It can be done I believe in the name of progress. I have not reviewed the idea that overall it is better yet I have seen evidence that it has. Not extensively is what I mean. I am open to the issue though.
    It can be done in the name of progress?
    Are you morphing into a progressive?
    Feeling the Bern?

    Sorry...just had to throw it out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    It can be done in the name of progress?
    Are you morphing into a progressive?
    Feeling the Bern?

    Sorry...just had to throw it out there.
    No that is the thing. Because you say that only means that I am concerned about that transition in regard to the change automation brings. I am pretty sure automation is a good thing as it has been in place with the improvements in processes and so on. Yet I said I am open to knowledge about automation. I think few will talk about how it effects us and whether or not the effect is good or not in regard to the impact of a change being quick and not allowing a adjustment into it. It may be the case that in reality the change is not sudden anyway. I have to say until it comes we can not really evaluate it.

    Progressive is a title. Most people avoid such titles because they do not fit in that game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    OK maybe I did not get the exact reasons why people are dropped right but the links speak of it better than I can.
    Show me where in the BLS they do not drop people off the list of unemployed after some amount of time, eh.
    They do a survey. Its not perfect but its darn good, lots of smart people and resources put into making it so. People aren't counted as unemployed until they stop looking for work, not when benefits run out. You can find smart economists who will criticize it, and smart ones defending the methodology and results....which leads me think its not perfect but as good as it can be made. Keep in mind what its supposed to measure, there are other measurements that should factor in as well like % of adults employed etc, but basically you're at 4% unemployment which is regarded as full employment. There's always some unemployment, people between jobs etc.

    Its not the most exiting reading.....

    How the Government Measures Unemployment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    The do a survey. Its not perfect but its darn good, lots of smart people and resources put into making it so. People aren't counted as unemployed until they stop looking for work, not when benefits run out. You can find smart economists who will criticize it, and smart ones defending the methodology and results....which leads me think its not perfect but as good as it can be made. Keep in mind what its supposed to measure, there are other measurements that should factor in as well like % of adults employed etc, but basically you're 4% which is regarded as full employment.

    Its not the most exiting reading.....

    How the Government Measures Unemployment
    Thanks, this just helps make the point that there are MORE people out of work than stated in the official info. I have not looked hard to find but am curious about how many people are no longer looking for work and have dropped off the list. Maybe wellfare or foodstamps type of data could be a starting point?
    How to even count homeless people? Maybe not as many in the great white north.

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    Being concerned with the effect on the American workforce and considering the effects of Automation it is reasonable to me and also necessary to be balanced plus wise. It (Automation) will effect our country if there are a lot of people effected at one time negatively it is a problem. I do not think that this (The human effects of Automation) is being ignored at all by leaders who are insightful about future trends.

    I do not even think the fact of ,nor the results of ,Automation is a progressive nor conservative label. I do understand the need of extremes in politics that need to label anyone center to either of the extremes as a negative as more centered is needed as a view!


    That only harms the country in my opinion right now because the discourse can be given to the extremes as the news cycle loves division. I can see advantages to automation because I see the progress in manufacturing over my life. I do not consider moving manufacturing to China to be a high point in that however It ignores the sound reason to even having any tariffs, If you look at the history of them they are not all that historically wrong and not specifically targeted to China. I do always believe "America First" however out of self interest as a American.

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    This is a bit off course,but it is a condition of what can happen. South side of Chicago. Rampant crime, single parent households, kids on the street at 12, 13 years old, gangs, absent fathers, guns, drugs, killings...the list goes on. This area used to vibrant years ago. The meat packing plants, small mom and pop business, manufacturing..

    Basically all gone. Even Target is closing. The area is a food desert. Bars and convenience stores are all that exist and those are frequently robbed. Burglar bars on all the businesses.

    The stockyards closed and moved. Live stock are processed from birth to your plate with hardly any labor. All automated. People cannot follow the slaughter houses, no jobs. So they stay where they are. No income, property values and taxes go down. Without taxes, the cities cannot function. This area is called the Back of the Yards.

    City of Harvey where my uncle had a construction business. This was a manufacturing and railroad town. Nice place in the 1940's and 50's. Not now. Government is corrupt, can't pay for the water they buy from Chicago.
    Once A Blue-Collar Powerhouse, A Chicago Suburb Now Faces A Dim Future : NPR
    Harvey, Ill.: A city abused and ignored - Chicago Tribune

    And so forth.

    This is what happens when people loose their jobs, particularly blue collar. The aren't skilled enough to follow the rainbow, they frequently cannot find local employment. Another issue is family. Its hard to leave an area where there are local friends and family for emotional support.

    Tom

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  22. #118
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    Here's one dystopian view:

    1) It's becomes cheaper to buy a machine than hire a worker to do most jobs. More and more millions go on unemployment, disability, multiple part-time jobs, marginal lives, etc.

    2) Owners of those machines get wealthier and wealthier, buying political and regulatory preferences to perpetuate this status quo. Real wages continue to fall. There's a scramble to kick down on anyone wanting the jobs left.

    3) Meanwhile, the world keeps adding to climate effects while becoming less and less economically and politically able to escape its effects.

    4) Agriculture and economies collapse, Syria-like, across much of the world. Those better off faces millions wanting to immigrate. Poor keep getting poorer. Meanwhile, in the first world, most countries are already running in debt. Increasing storms, fires, drought, pollution, aging demographics, etc. trash their economies. Strong-arm dictators, playing to their base, outnumber citizen-led democracies and republics.

    5) Inequality goes to unprecedented levels. The poor struggle to survive. The rich become richer, living in gating communities, gene-editing out their plan looking, short, not-too-bright kids -- but with who knows what consequences.

    6) The remaining poor people get really pissed. But we have automated robocops and drones to keep the peace, fight the wars. Face recognition, GPS, implants . . . everyone is tracked.

    7) Still lots of really pissed people and terrorism-style conflict, Maybe neither the poor nor the rich really do all that well in the end -- it's the machines (or cockroaches) that manage to replicate in 2200?

    I wouldn't bet on this scenario. But it's one of many possible futures we wouldn't much like. It really is time to be a bit more mindful of the world our kids will inherit, than short term gain for the next quarter or year.

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    We are all doomed, the sky is falling soon.
    The rich will take it all and we will become serifs or slaves to those with the real money since they own the hill and higher ground.
    (posted a bit in sarcasm)

    Above wants to talk Chicago, talk to us in Flint.
    Where did the first real labor strikes take place? Got these in your family and blood?

    It's all silly.

    I wonder when this was pasted on the walls of every shop. Looks sort of old.
    auto.jpg
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Here's one dystopian view:

    1) It's becomes cheaper to buy a machine than hire a worker to do most jobs. More and more millions go on unemployment, disability, multiple part-time jobs, marginal lives, etc.

    2) Owners of those machines get wealthier and wealthier, buying political and regulatory preferences to perpetuate this status quo. Real wages continue to fall. There's a scramble to kick down on anyone wanting the jobs left.

    3) Meanwhile, the world keeps adding to climate effects while becoming less and less economically and politically able to escape its effects.

    4) Agriculture and economies collapse, Syria-like, across much of the world. Those better off faces millions wanting to immigrate. Poor keep getting poorer. Meanwhile, in the first world, most countries are already running in debt. Increasing storms, fires, drought, pollution, aging demographics, etc. trash their economies. Strong-arm dictators, playing to their base, outnumber citizen-led democracies and republics.

    5) Inequality goes to unprecedented levels. The poor struggle to survive. The rich become richer, living in gating communities, gene-editing out their plan looking, short, not-too-bright kids -- but with who knows what consequences.

    6) The remaining poor people get really pissed. But we have automated robocops and drones to keep the peace, fight the wars. Face recognition, GPS, implants . . . everyone is tracked.

    7) Still lots of really pissed people and terrorism-style conflict, Maybe neither the poor nor the rich really do all that well in the end -- it's the machines (or cockroaches) that manage to replicate in 2200?

    I wouldn't bet on this scenario. But it's one of many possible futures we wouldn't much like. It really is time to be a bit more mindful of the world our kids will inherit, than short term gain for the next quarter or year.
    Did someone say 1984?

    Tom


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