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    I'm with Buck. Basic infrastructure is a legitimate government role.

    Personal property- in the form of EV's- is not comparable to infrastructure or defense spending, where everyone benefits roughly equally.

    And most roads are State funded anyway, not Federal. Seems these days that Federal dollars do more to kill infrastructure projects than help them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    there is everything wrong with lucas generators
    Q: What do the English drink warm beer?
    A: They have Lucas refrigerators.

    Lucas wasn't known as the Prince of Darkness for nothing...

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    Bob I am talking about the incentives paid on car purchases .. just the cars..That is my opinion, EVs should make it on their own merit... not trying to convince anybody to change their opinion..many rich enough to have a third car should be rich enough to pay for it.

    I don't think EVs are going to save the world .. but are fine if they serve some peoples need.

    Perhaps in California buying one will be the law soon ..Glad I live in Michigan.. I lived at the beach in Oxnard, California and did not even have a car..Yes there was one I could borrow..but why go anyplace when you live there. Lived just down the street/beach from this hotel.

    Embassy Suites Mandalay Beach Hotel & Resort - Guest Reservations

  5. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    ...Lucas wasn't known as the Prince of Darkness for nothing...
    Lol. I worked in an import car repair shop when I was in college.

    A customer brought in a TR6, the horn would honk with every sweep of the windshield wipers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Lol. I worked in an import car repais shop when I was in college.

    A customer brought in a TR6, the horn would honk with every sweep of the windshield wipers...
    I thought that that was a safety feature so that the driver would know that the wipers were turned on. If the wipers didn't move, you knew that there was something wrong.

  8. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I thought that that was a safety feature so that the driver would know that the wipers were turned on. If the wipers didn't move, you knew that there was something wrong.
    Nowadays the wipers go on when it starts raining, and the horn toots to wake you up so you might check to see you have a umbrella

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    I done with this. I am talking about my dollars to buy cars for other people and you seem to be stuck/argue on everything tax dollars are spent on... when I see an EV I think that I helped to pay for that car.
    Some one is going to buy a $125,000 Tesla and I will help pay for it when I'm driving a car worth perhaps worth $6,000...Go figure.
    NO you are ranting about how the gov't is stealing from you

    It is irrelevant what they do with the money, it is not stealing.

    I am simply pointing out that lots of people have other selfish ideas about what the gov't should and should not spend money on, and the gov't is not stealing from them either

    the whole 'stealing' crap is ignorant

    you want to argue against subsidies, go right ahead, I will agree with you, subsidies for oil and gas companies at the top of the list

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    I'm with Buck. Basic infrastructure is a legitimate government role.

    Personal property- in the form of EV's- is not comparable to infrastructure or defense spending, where everyone benefits roughly equally.
    Breathable air and drinkable water can be considered basic infrastructure.

    But beyond that, the entire 'US as a Manufacturing Giant' was created by government policy. That policy was a big part of the reason for the Civil War. If slavery wasn't involved then we might have solved that without a war ... or maybe not. But regardless, it was a cause.

    You can't really be a machine shop then disparage government policy, that's biting the hand that created you

    I would disparage current government policy because I am convinced that banking is not the impetus for a good life that manufacturing is. And I would say that China is demonstrating that right now. But that's not the same as denying the validity of policies. If you keep the long view out of decision-making you'll go right down the toilet, as demonstrated by several countries before us.

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    You might as well give it up because I have right to my own opinion. The outlay for EV incentive is a little over a billion dollars of taxpayer money. That divided by all the taxpayers is only $7 to $10 bucks each. I could toss 10 bucks out the window and not be hurt…But that is a billion dollars that could be used for something useful, and not just free money to people who likely don’t even need it. Being dumb about (my) tax money seems the norm lately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    You might as well give it up because I have right to my own opinion. The outlay for EV incentive is a little over a billion dollars of taxpayer money. That divided by all the taxpayers is only $7 to $10 bucks each. I could toss 10 bucks out the window and not be hurt…But that is a billion dollars that could be used for something useful, and not just free money to people who likely don’t even need it. Being dumb about (my) tax money seems the norm lately.

    How do you feel about the "war on drugs"... Or the "war" in the middle east? Or the fact that you're paying for food stamps for wal mart employees so they don't have to pay their employees more?

    How about the "war on Christmas"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    And as mentioned, the money for the road in front of your house is obviously robbery since it is of no value to me
    What a poor argument, you need to do better.

    The road in front of Buck's house is a public road, available for anyone to use. However, the government assistance to buy an electric vehicle does not convey any benefit to anyone other than the direct recipient of the government assistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    What a poor argument, you need to do better.

    The road in front of Buck's house is a public road, available for anyone to use. However, the government assistance to buy an electric vehicle does not convey any benefit to anyone other than the direct recipient of the government assistance.
    That is exactly the test that should be used. Is this of benefit to a large number of people or just a few? Even non drivers can benefit from public roads. They can walk or bicycle on secondary roads and can ride on a highway in someone else's vehicle or on a bus.

    I'm also not a fan of subsidizing rooftop solar but at least the argument could be made that by supplementing the electric supply they are reducing capital costs for the utility that would be passed on to customers. I'd be even more inclined to accept that argument if they received fair value for the electricity produced rather than receiving the retail value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    That is exactly the test that should be used. Is this of benefit to a large number of people or just a few? Even non drivers can benefit from public roads. They can walk or bicycle on secondary roads and can ride on a highway in someone else's vehicle or on a bus.

    I'm also not a fan of subsidizing rooftop solar but at least the argument could be made that by supplementing the electric supply they are reducing capital costs for the utility that would be passed on to customers. I'd be even more inclined to accept that argument if they received fair value for the electricity produced rather than receiving the retail value.

    They are not reducing capital cost, they are increasing it. My utility, Tucson Electric, Has just dropped $200,000,000.00 because of these wonderful renewables. The way the grid system works, if someone loses capacity, the rest of the grid has 3 minutes to make up the difference. The supplier that lost capacity has 10 minutes to recover. The solar and wind on your system is counted as your capacity. So if the wind stops or a cloud blocks the sun you have 10 minutes to replace that. In Arizona that can be a lot. So TECO has installed 20 Wartsila engines with ABB generators fueled by natural gas. Each is rated 20 Mwe. Kept hot, they can go to full load in much less than 10 minutes. Of course this is paid for by those without renewable bullshit.

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    grid operators say if rooftop solar input exceeds 30% of demand ,the grid operator loses the ability to regulate voltage in part of the network and shutdowns will be needed.Crunch time for regulation is 9am-10 am when sun is shining strong,but drain from air conditioning is low.Says solar owners may have to shunt power into onsite uses to avoid this situation...IE hook up their EVs.or charge their battery banks...which may become mandatory for solar owners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    grid operators say if rooftop solar input exceeds 30% of demand ,the grid operator loses the ability to regulate voltage in part of the network and shutdowns will be needed.Crunch time for regulation is 9am-10 am when sun is shining strong,but drain from air conditioning is low.Says solar owners may have to shunt power into onsite uses to avoid this situation...IE hook up their EVs.or charge their battery banks...which may become mandatory for solar owners.
    link please, 'some people say' is uninteresting

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    grid operators say if rooftop solar input exceeds 30% of demand ,the grid operator loses the ability to regulate voltage in part of the network and shutdowns will be needed.Crunch time for regulation is 9am-10 am when sun is shining strong,but drain from air conditioning is low.Says solar owners may have to shunt power into onsite uses to avoid this situation...IE hook up their EVs.or charge their battery banks...which may become mandatory for solar owners.
    Aw, poor utilities. I feel real sorry for 'em. Had a monopoly for years (handed to them by the gubmint) and think they own their customers. Utilities have been complaining about renewables (except hydro, go figure) ever since they were forced to accept them. That damn gubmint, ya know. Instead of bitching about what an awful thing they are and how they're never going to work and how their system is going to be ruined, why don't they just talk to the utility people who've been managing them successfully for 40 years?

    All they're doing is admitting they don't how to manage and don't want to. They really seem to think renewables are going to go away because they complain about 'em, but instead they just look like Luddites. JFLearn it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    Aw, poor utilities. I feel real sorry for 'em. Had a monopoly for years (handed to them by the gubmint) and think they own their customers. Utilities have been complaining about renewables (except hydro, go figure) ever since they were forced to accept them. That damn gubmint, ya know. Instead of bitching about what an awful thing they are and how they're never going to work and how their system is going to be ruined, why don't they just talk to the utility people who've been managing them successfully for 40 years?

    All they're doing is admitting they don't how to manage and don't want to. They really seem to think renewables are going to go away because they complain about 'em, but instead they just look like Luddites. JFLearn it!
    This is an ignorant response with respect to controlling grid voltage and frequency when non-managed suppliers to the grid become too great a percentage of capacity.

    There is a tremendous amount of engineering that goes into the grid connected UL1741 compliant devices to ensure they disconnect from the grid when frequency and voltage go out of spec or if the device becomes islanded during a power outage . . . safety precautions so you don't electrocute the lineman who is trying to restore power . . . however, among the many features regulated by UL1741 - remote management of the grid connected devices is not part of the package.

    When the distributed energy capacity that is not managed becomes a significant percentage of capacity - then you lose the ability to control voltage and frequency and when this happens, you get distributed systems going unstable and then parts of the power distribution system disconnecting which then has a cascading effect of black outs.

    I wouldn't be surprised if in the future remote management of small private energy producers is required. You connect to the grid and only are allowed to sell energy if the utility can set the voltage and frequency output of your device.

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  26. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    Aw, poor utilities. I feel real sorry for 'em. Had a monopoly for years (handed to them by the gubmint) and think they own their customers. Utilities have been complaining about renewables (except hydro, go figure) ever since they were forced to accept them. That damn gubmint, ya know. Instead of bitching about what an awful thing they are and how they're never going to work and how their system is going to be ruined, why don't they just talk to the utility people who've been managing them successfully for 40 years?

    All they're doing is admitting they don't how to manage and don't want to. They really seem to think renewables are going to go away because they complain about 'em, but instead they just look like Luddites. JFLearn it!
    This is the foundational issue:

    Grid generating capacity must be equal to or greater than the grid load.

    The grid generating capacity can be made up of any combination of available energy sources.

    Until recently, the grid generation energy sources that were consistent and easily controlled were favored over uncontrollable variable sources. The system was specifically designed around consistency and reliability.

    With the advent of the so called renewable energy sources we are now adding some variables to the system. The two chief sources currently are wind turbines and photo cell arrays. A couple of major problems with these. First the sun does not shine 24hrs a day, weather conditions occur that obscures the sun, and the wind does not always blow at a usable rate.

    This means that for every MW of wind turbine or photo cell array installed, we need that much in reserve capacity that can be brought online at the rate the renewable source is decreasing.

    The reserve energy capacity either needs to come from generating stations or else from energy storage devices or methods that have sufficient storage capacity to meet the required renewable energy deficiency. We also need to add in additional generating capacity to overcome the energy storage inefficiencies.

    We then have the issue that much of the renewable energy sources are coming from third party providers. Since we are trying to encourage renewables, we are giving certain incentives for their construction. At the same time we are not requiring them to have any storage capacity tied in with the new renewable sources.

    Some one will have to pay for the required energy storage resources.

    So who should that be? If you require the grid companies to do it, you are asking them to develop technology for problems they are not directly causing. If you require the renewable energy source companies to do this, there is at least a greatly reduced financial incentive or negative incentive. This also gives us a more accurate true cost of energy production of renewable energy sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    This is the foundational issue:

    Grid generating capacity must be equal to or greater than the grid load.

    The grid generating capacity can be made up of any combination of available energy sources.

    Until recently, the grid generation energy sources that were consistent and easily controlled were favored over uncontrollable variable sources. The system was specifically designed around consistency and reliability.

    With the advent of the so called renewable energy sources we are now adding some variables to the system. The two chief sources currently are wind turbines and photo cell arrays. A couple of major problems with these. First the sun does not shine 24hrs a day, weather conditions occur that obscures the sun, and the wind does not always blow at a usable rate.

    This means that for every MW of wind turbine or photo cell array installed, we need that much in reserve capacity that can be brought online at the rate the renewable source is decreasing.

    The reserve energy capacity either needs to come from generating stations or else from energy storage devices or methods that have sufficient storage capacity to meet the required renewable energy deficiency. We also need to add in additional generating capacity to overcome the energy storage inefficiencies.

    We then have the issue that much of the renewable energy sources are coming from third party providers. Since we are trying to encourage renewables, we are giving certain incentives for their construction. At the same time we are not requiring them to have any storage capacity tied in with the new renewable sources.

    Some one will have to pay for the required energy storage resources.

    So who should that be? If you require the grid companies to do it, you are asking them to develop technology for problems they are not directly causing. If you require the renewable energy source companies to do this, there is at least a greatly reduced financial incentive or negative incentive. This also gives us a more accurate true cost of energy production of renewable energy sources.
    A really great post, explains the issue perfectly, except for one thing. What is the home grown made up word "foundational" supposed to mean?

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    Good points Ziggy we need the free energy system that costs a lot of money.
    And also need the back-up system that also cost a lot of money and will set idle when not needed.

    So spend double when we need half...let me see if we can come up with a formula to justify that....


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