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  1. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    What will the majority of us get in this trade, exchanging our personal liberty to POSSIBLY eliminate the loss of 0.015% of the U.S. population per year?
    Self-driving vehicles have nothing to do with your liberty, you can own your own.

    But beyond that, even if society tossed cars aside and made them unobtanium, people had MORE liberty before we had the auto. Plus the idea that you have "liberty" in a car is ridiculous. On the road you are subject to unreasonable search and seizure at all times. Driver's licenses are the same as a national ID card. Private insurance is forced down your throat or it's jail time ! Bah, people who talk "liberty" in the context of cars don't know the meaning of the word. Cars are one of the easiest ways to deprove people of liberty.

    We had "liberty" and a hell of a lot more of it for three hundred years before the auto came along. What's liberating is going somewhere and you don't have to park the damn thing. You don't have to worry about it getting broken into or stolen or scratched. There's no bloody parking meters to feed. No car means you're on your own, Jack, free as a bird.

    Possessions own us.

    travel efficiently enough to satisfy our fast-paced society is probably pretty small.
    Maybe we should look at that, too. We are all going to die. Why do we have to hurry up to get there?

    For many people, living in a city apartment and existing without a personal vehicle is something they want and for them I say fine, have at it but if you don't think universal adoption of SDVs and even BEVs will devastate rural areas you are buying into a fantasy. I for one don't care to live in an apartment in a city, traveling only by foot, bicycle, public transit and hired rides and there is a substantial portion of the population who share that view.
    That's fine, I am not trying to forcce you to do anything. But on the other hand, this pretense that cars are self-supporting and the best thing since sliced bread is not true. The auto is gigantically subsidized and quite destructive, saying public transportation is a public burden is not honest. Plus the reason public transportation is now mostly owned by cities and the feds is that the feds and states subsidized autos to the point they ran off the private companies transporting passengers.

    There are a lot more negatives to cars than just the number of people killed in accidents each year.

    I just think self-driving is a waste because instead of addressing the problem, it is continuing down the same destructive path we already travel. If the spindle speed is too high, jacking it up another 500 rpm ain't gonna fix the problem.

  2. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Self-driving vehicles have nothing to do with your liberty, you can own your own.
    Or so people THINK right now when they are still at the experimental stage. A lot of entities including Uber and cab companies are pushing the idea that individuals shouldn't be allowed to own them but rather that they should be reserved for fleet pay-to-ride usage. They have a lot of support from "experts" touting safety, maintenance, and environmental issues as justification for banning individual ownership.

    EG, I get that you hate the automobile, joining such illustrious company as Al Gore and other similar paragons of virtue. As such, you are fully entitled to choose not to own one yourself but you have no right to choose for the rest of us.

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  4. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    .... banning individual ownership.
    .
    Being from MId or Southeast Michigan I can't even wrap my head around such let alone get worried about it.
    And then what about dual purpose bikes, snowmobiles and quads?
    Maintenance cost and environmental output? Gas and diesel powered boats would not seem to rate very high here. Lets all going sailing once again?
    I just do not see any way this ever happens.

    Electric vehicles are coming, somewhat self driving cars in both ICE and electric are coming.
    This does not mean the end to the world as we know it or huge restrictions on us all.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Gas and diesel powered boats would not seem to rate very high here. Lets all going sailing once again?
    I just do not see any way this ever happens.
    Flip side, people who own/operate jet skis are hated with an absolute passion. And not just by sailboat owners.

    We got them banned from a major harbour here after many, many incidents of abusive operation.

    PDW

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    I remember the battery rental boats in Golden Gate park in San Francisco. I thought they were cool at eight years old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Flip side, people who own/operate jet skis are hated with an absolute passion. And not just by sailboat owners.

    We got them banned from a major harbour here after many, many incidents of abusive operation.

    PDW
    I own sort of a jet ski. A 15 foot vee-bottom Tahiti with a 428 CJ Ford and a Berkley drive. Would I be banned? This can't be even a tiny bit eco friendly.
    Yes I know what you are saying, my lake also been taken over but these things and the no drive or respect for others.
    If out in my little 19ft Lighting sail boat it is sort of nuts on weekends. Sail power has right of way, seems most do not get that or why.
    Now there are the 70mph+ tri-toons trying to show off or impress their passengers, all with none wearing a vest or even a ski belt.

    You run a boat of which size I have no idea. At what point do you where a vest? Assume bigger than a lake so 10, 20, 30 foot?
    Once it is crashing across the front and burying the nose? This is a mostly silly question but I wonder at what point do we run for PPE?
    I am so way off topic here.....fun times.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I own sort of a jet ski. A 15 foot vee-bottom Tahiti with a 428 CJ Ford and a Berkley drive. Would I be banned? This can't be even a tiny bit eco friendly.
    Yes I know what you are saying, my lake also been taken over but these things and the no drive or respect for others.
    If out in my little 19ft Lighting sail boat it is sort of nuts on weekends. Sail power has right of way, seems most do not get that or why.
    Now there are the 70mph+ tri-toons trying to show off or impress their passengers, all with none wearing a vest or even a ski belt.

    You run a boat of which size I have no idea. At what point do you where a vest? Assume bigger than a lake so 10, 20, 30 foot?
    Once it is crashing across the front and burying the nose? This is a mostly silly question but I wonder at what point do we run for PPE?
    I am so way off topic here.....fun times.
    Bob
    If you are not using plastic straws, then you can claim to be green even though you are in your Tahiti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    EG, I get that you hate the automobile, joining such illustrious company as Al Gore and other similar paragons of virtue. As such, you are fully entitled to choose not to own one yourself but you have no right to choose for the rest of us.
    I am not joining Al Gore, I was there long before he was. I don't hate the automobile, I like them and have had more fun with them than most people. But they are not good as a universal solution to transportation.

    Many countries are doing much better on this subject than the US. In the Bay Area, the transportation system we had in 1870 was better than now. Look it up. There's schedules.

    That's not progress.

    As far as forcing you, you're being paranoid. There are famous people proposing giant $$$ programs to settle interstellar space, too. I wouldn't worry about it.

    Mostly what I want to point out is the fallacious arguments used to justify Universal Automobile Culture. You don't have more choices this way, you have fewer. By dumping these massive subsidies into cars, you are losing choices and money. You don't gain freedom, you lose it. Many times, you don't even gain convenience, you lose it. It's not the utopia you believe it to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I own sort of a jet ski. A 15 foot vee-bottom Tahiti with a 428 CJ Ford and a Berkley drive.
    You need something with balls. Put an 8V92 into that hummer

    At what point do you wear a vest? Assume bigger than a lake so 10, 20, 30 foot?
    Once it is crashing across the front and burying the nose? This is a mostly silly question but I wonder at what point do we run for PPE?
    Never. Fuck 'em. If she goes down, I go down too. Decided that before I left .... (worst I went through was clipping about 18" off the top of the third wave in a row, decks under about 4-5" of water, motor was happy 80 year old wood boat was happy I was happy. Biggest worry was getting the sleeping bag wet, that would make for a miserable night. Now rapids like Skookumchuck, those'll gather your sphincter muscles but all's well that ends well, they say. I'm still here to bother y'all.)

  11. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    I own sort of a jet ski. A 15 foot vee-bottom Tahiti with a 428 CJ Ford and a Berkley drive. Would I be banned? This can't be even a tiny bit eco friendly.
    Yes I know what you are saying, my lake also been taken over but these things and the no drive or respect for others.
    If out in my little 19ft Lighting sail boat it is sort of nuts on weekends. Sail power has right of way, seems most do not get that or why.
    Now there are the 70mph+ tri-toons trying to show off or impress their passengers, all with none wearing a vest or even a ski belt.

    You run a boat of which size I have no idea. At what point do you where a vest? Assume bigger than a lake so 10, 20, 30 foot?
    Once it is crashing across the front and burying the nose? This is a mostly silly question but I wonder at what point do we run for PPE?
    I am so way off topic here.....fun times.
    Bob
    Just got back from a day out sailing. FWIW my boat is a steel 12m Tom Colvin design junk rigged schooner that I built myself. Top speed maybe 8 knots - I'm not in a hurry. Mostly we poke along at 4 to 5 knots under sail and 5 knots under power is a good cruising speed. Not trying to make much distance, this place is a great sailing area.

    Anyway we were anchored in a bay for lunch when a fuckwit in a 30' or so power boat came in at 20+ knots on the plane, pushing up a big wake, within 50m of us. We were the only anchored boat there and one of 3 boats - the other 2 were drifting and fishing. No depth constraints or anything, absolutely no reason to come that close to us at speed.

    Do you think that fuckwit did himself any favours? I've made a mental not of his boat for future reference.

    Jet skiers earned their reputation all by their own work. It should be legal to shoot them on sight. I sort of get that some people like to go fast but the place to do it is somewhere where your noise, wake and risk of hitting other vessels, swimmers etc isn't going to be a problem. That's why they got banned - far too many of them simply would not stop ripping into beaches at full speed with people in the water.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Being from MId or Southeast Michigan I can't even wrap my head around such let alone get worried about it.
    And then what about dual purpose bikes, snowmobiles and quads?
    Maintenance cost and environmental output? Gas and diesel powered boats would not seem to rate very high here. Lets all going sailing once again?
    I just do not see any way this ever happens.

    Electric vehicles are coming, somewhat self driving cars in both ICE and electric are coming.
    This does not mean the end to the world as we know it or huge restrictions on us all.
    Bob
    Don't worry, only the bad dream of some right wing bobbleheads, no actual thought process or anything other than paranoia

    It would be nice to argue with facts, but I think most people see fear driven fantasy for what it is

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Don't worry, only the bad dream of some right wing bobbleheads, no actual thought process or anything other than paranoia

    It would be nice to argue with facts, but I think most people see fear driven fantasy for what it is
    Says one of the guys who thinks Nazis are hiding under every bed!

    I'm always amazed at how good Libward types are at "diagnosing" mental illness in those who disagree with their opinions. Many of them would be amazed at how bouncing-off-the-walls crazy some of their own posts appear. Often it's not hard to imagine flecks of spittle flying from their mouths as they type.

    I don't know how much reading up you have actually done on the subject but there are numerous pieces, often by those who have the ear of government, trying to make a case for banning not only self-driven vehicles but even privately owned SDVs. Ironically, many of the posters here who dream of traveling 100s of miles in a car that drives itself are actually proving the case they make that personally owned SDVs would lead to MORE miles driven by eliminating the stress that long distance and city driving causes humans.

    Basically those imagining the SDV future come from two camps.

    Those in the first camp write optimistic projections describing a glorious future where our tireless "robot driver" takes us anywhere we want to go, anytime we want, even coming from its parking space on demand to pick us up as we exit a building. In this projected future we will not only drastically reduce accidents but also free up gobs of travel time for surfing the web, working, or even taking a nap.

    Those in the second camp, who are often serious techies, environmental activists, and leaders of NGOs and corporations with strong input into government decisions make a different case. They (correctly) point out that privately owned SDVs would encourage more travel, leading to not only greater energy consumption but also greater congestion on highways and within cities. The ease of travel would enable those who either don't drive or restrict their travel due to limitations (such as the elderly) to have their personal livery service deliver them comfortably and safely not only to far away destinations such as visiting out of state relatives but also into congested and hectic city centers. No worry about parking because your tireless "limo driver" will drop you off and then go find a space or even just drive around until you are ready for the return trip.

    I know several people who use commuter rail to travel to jobs in Boston. They do so because of the difficulties in driving and parking in the business district. They would abandon commuter rail in a heartbeat if their personal vehicle could imitate a livery service or taxi without the cost.

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    Scott, you make stuff up and pretend it is real, then act like others should take you seriously

    this is not mental illness it is just stupid

    I like stick shift cars and manual steering, but automatics and power steering are not assaults on my liberty, and neither are self driving cars

    there is no linear case for your sillyness, and it is not in any way a logical argument against self driving cars



    Oh, and there are nazis marching in the streets, and white supremacists setting White House policy


    It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative

    claiming that self driving cars are infringing on your liberty is just dumbass

    unless you count when they drive into you and kill you as an infringement, then you have a point, but you don't view being dead as an infringement on liberty generally, now do you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I know several people who use commuter rail to travel to jobs in Boston. They do so because of the difficulties in driving and parking in the business district. They would abandon commuter rail in a heartbeat if their personal vehicle could imitate a livery service or taxi without the cost.
    Agree with you on this. And we agree that self-driving cars will create more problems than they solve.

    What we don't agree on is that the libtards will successfully jam community ownership down our throats. Who will pay for it ? People buy their own cars now but a tax for a self-driving vehicle that you don't own ? Good luck with that.

    If they did succeed, look out. Can you imagine what would have happened if the 1950's Popular Mechanics fantasies had come true ? The Jetsons was a cartoon.

    That's why I think the efforts in that direction are a waste. Money and talent in other directions would give better results.

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    I see SDV as taking over from taxi /uber in the short term....in fact I would imagine uber/like services would be planning for that eventuality right now.Its a very attractive field for governments to squeeze a bit of tax from too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Agree with you on this. And we agree that self-driving cars will create more problems than they solve.

    What we don't agree on is that the libtards will successfully jam community ownership down our throats. Who will pay for it ? People buy their own cars now but a tax for a self-driving vehicle that you don't own ? Good luck with that.

    If they did succeed, look out. Can you imagine what would have happened if the 1950's Popular Mechanics fantasies had come true ? The Jetsons was a cartoon.

    That's why I think the efforts in that direction are a waste. Money and talent in other directions would give better results.
    Like Self guided snow plows....Driving the "legal Limit" (heck allow them 65 mph
    thru the neighborhoods) thru a blinding snow storm. Wing plow out wide, weaving in between parked cars.

    It's not like they would destroy anymore mailboxes than what is done now....YouTube

    And that is only a single axle plow truck, driverless convert a Mack twin screw or an Oshkosh like we use around here.
    Last edited by digger doug; 12-19-2019 at 07:05 AM.

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    SDV s wont be doing 60mph,or 1-60 in 3 seconds.....they will be operated conservativly without any interference from the passengers.I estimate 20mph as being a very viable speed for all city traffic .

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    Never. Fuck 'em. If she goes down, I go down too. Decided that before I left
    Nice to be at peace with the world isn’t it?

    I bet most folks make an attempt at survival.
    Sea stories aside, how bout them Teslas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmead View Post
    Nice to be at peace with the world isn’t it?
    Yeah, kinda

    I bet most folks make an attempt at survival.
    Your body probably does, but the brain knows 'this is pointless'. We're talking 50 miles to the nearest human, 500 feet deep icy cold water in bear country. Realistically speaking, wornout old guys are not going to do well.

    If you want to test your underwear permeability, try Arran narrows. Jeeze. C'mon boat, I said LEFT you bastard !

    Then when you do get company, you're not sure if it is just a dream. Did I fall into some kind of time warp?

    throwback.jpg

    Pretty much fun

    Sea stories aside, how bout them Teslas?
    Sales are up, but the big thing right now is the Roewe's (Rover). All of them electric, cheaper than Tesla, and they went from sales of three to god-knows. I see them all over, when last year they were nothing.

    I wonder if GM is smart enough to do a little test-marketing in faraway places ?

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    Is Tesla producing from the new Chinese factory yet?......Dont really follow cars much.


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