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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by machtool View Post
    Perth. Western Australia is the most remote Capitol city in the World. Please try and tell us about re-charging stations in the middle of the Nullarbor Desert.
    Run that past Motion Guru again from post # 43, He was the one that did the size overlay. Why are you getting so butt hurt???????? Is it that France is bigger by a factor of 2+, or that we have cattle stations that big????????

    Phil???????? with the 8 questions marks. Apparently that means you know shit from clay.
    Ok so how many of thoes in Perth drive out into Australia often? How many of those are in multi car house holds? How many of those house holds would it make great sense to have a cheap local run around - daily commute type car? Just how many house holds are there on the planet were a car that had a 200 mile range would not work for most as in greater than 95% of journeys?

    I live in the UK about a hour away from a ferry ride to mainland Europe, catch a ferry and i could theoretically drive all the way to the far side or should that be your side of Russia from here totally legally. Tell me how far you think i should be able to get before the battery getting flat is not a issue? What point does far enough satisfy everyone or just a significant enough chunk of every one?

    The above American posters mention 600 -700 mile drives, in circa 10 hours with some kinda lunch break, so would 300 miles of real world range be enough if you could pencil in a stop and have lunch type recharge in say under 30 minutes?

    Or are you saying that the range has to be infinite to make electric suitable for you -99% of the world?

    FYI the question marks are about why its never good enough but few seam to post up just how many truly are doing that kinda distances or what would actually fill there needs. There is 7 billion+ people on this planet, a alarmingly high number of them live in towns - cities not the American or Australian out back. Other wise your arguments nearly as stupid as saying i won't buy a electric car as 2/3rds of the planets surface is water and they can't drive on it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post

    ....What I have observed where I live is that no one seems to be buying a BEV as a sole vehicle. Even if it's just the wife's car one will be an IC engined vehicle. The same does not hold true with hybrids.
    Limiting myself to personal knowledge, the 2 Teslas and the 2 Leafs I know of are their owner's sole cars. (I don't count trucks- different purpose.) Of the 8 hybrid owners, 6 also own IC cars. The lines get a bit blurry when households are included.

    "Seems"? Your personal knowledge?

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    Hanermo, I repeat my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    Ok, given your rosy predictions of electric car adaption, what year will governments have to start replacing petroleum taxes with some other income source? Governments absolutely won't stand lower tax collections for any longer than the next budget cycle.

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  5. #64
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    ^ Our government introduced ever lower tax bands for lower emission cars, they have all gradually crept down the emission limits - numbers pushing more further up the tax scale. Generally over here what band a car falls into on purchase - is age holds true going forwards. Newer purchases of even the same car generally then get a slightly different tax rate. Hence jump in with a electric over here now and you get some serious savings, but like all things it won't be this rosy for ever.

    High emission petroleum burners get badly caned here tax wise these days, if you get much less than 30MPG aka 200g co2 a km your going to have a circa £2000 annual road tax bill! There's also a £310 surcharge for 5 years on cars with a book value over £40,000 too. Don't know if that applies to electric. its all a pretty complex system, use to be a lot easier, road tax was based on engine size and fuel duty spanked the high emission cars, now its seaming to be reversed, just having a oil guzzlers going to cost you a mint even if you don't use it much at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    Limiting myself to personal knowledge, the 2 Teslas and the 2 Leafs I know of are their owner's sole cars. (I don't count trucks- different purpose.) Of the 8 hybrid owners, 6 also own IC cars. The lines get a bit blurry when households are included.

    "Seems"? Your personal knowledge?
    I have two employees with Leaf's and both are commute to work only cars . . . and both used backups during the coldest last few weeks of snow / ice / low temps. We let them plug in while at work so they don't have to sweat to get home. They both bought them as lease returns for about $8500US each with less than 25k miles on them. I think that in that sense they make sense for these employees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    Scottl - The cost per mile will be about 3x-5x less than current ICE cars.

    About 500 Tsla cars have tracked their battery state publicly.
    So far, in 3-4 years, they have lost about 4-5% of capacity, overall, in upto 200.000 miles of use (corner case).
    The trends are uniform, and similar.

    This proves even major heavy use in distance traveled does not kill the batteries fast at least, if at all.
    This proves that (tsla) BEV batteries do not die, quickly.

    The current trends indicate battery life, to 80% capacity, about 15-20 years.
    Thus, battery failure is not an economic concern.

    The current cost of charging a BEV, Spain, is 0.04 €/kWh, nighttime BEV rate.
    Similar everywhere.
    Similar in the USA.

    Night-time electric power is really cheap. It is essentially free money for the utility.
    A "tank" of power, 100 kWh, costs 3-4€, vs 80$ for gas.
    About 15 times less.

    Today, +/- "nothing" uses the grid or infra systems at night.
    Thus, any use paid-for, is all "found money" to the utility ie extra income with near-zero marginal costs.
    Utilities "love" BEVs, with good reason.

    Electric power globally is set to get much cheaper.
    98-99% of all new PPAs in the USA and globally, were with PV or wind. 2016.
    Typical prices are 3-4 cents, or 50-200% less than alternatives.

    It is really cheap to install e.g. 200% peak PV, and use the excess in heavy industry like alu refining etc.
    The process is exponential.
    Last years installs PV+wind, about 73 GWh iirc, are more than global total installs, less than 3 years ago.
    == 73 Nukes.
    You could "throw away" the excess, or use it to power BEV cars.
    Obviously, BEV cars will, and are, be the preferred choice.
    After 3+ years driving a pure electric car, I must back all the above comments as absolutely true. Only addittional comment might be we CAN kill the batteries in 2-3 years if we exceed their peak amperage capacity for quick accels. But keeping within the batt max pea rating kept my batts like new for the whole 3+ year time I ran it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Ok so how many of thoes in Perth drive out into Australia often?
    Perth *is* in Australia. It's the capital city of the state of Western Australia. And it's a fscking loooong way from there to the eastern states.

    Look, better than 80% of the Australian population lives in urban/suburban areas. IMO BEV vehicles will work fine for commuter buggies, especially as we have a decent power system, unlike the Americans. Not so great for long distance, which happens quite a lot judging by the traffic on the Hume Highway between Sydney & Melbourne. One of my regular commutes is 360 km from my Tasmanian place to Devonport, overnight ferry to Melbourne then 1000km drive to Sydney. Recharging a BEV on a trip like that would be a real PITA.

    Incidentally the distance across Bass Strait is a hell of a lot further - and often rougher - than crossing the English Channel by ferry.

    I think BEV's have got a really great future. As I said, I'd have one if the price was right, it'd replace my Subaru car. Wouldn't replace my turbo diesel light truck but that's fine.

    You should un-twist your knickers and calm down.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    ... Two of the people I knew with BEVs also had 4-wheel drive pickups that were the go-to vehicle in bad weather and for other purposes.

    You have just proved my point by putting "cars" in italics and saying "The lines get a bit blurry when households are included".

    I know several people for whom a hybrid is their sole VEHICLE and some of them are single person households. A Prius is such a common sight around here that they are almost the "new VW Beetle". It's hard to take a highway trip of any duration these days without passing a few of them.
    Your point, explicitly stated:

    What I have observed where I live is that no one seems to be buying a BEV as a sole vehicle.
    My post was an attempt to supply some real data and elicit some from you. Partially successful. "Several"? How many is that? "Seems"? Vague terms. Or is your terminology an attempt at qualification?

    Two of the people I knew with BEVs also had 4-wheel drive pickups that were the go-to vehicle in bad weather and for other purposes
    Here that's also typical of those households where the primary vehicle is solely ICE. My point, which you seem to be agreeing with now, is that it's not so clear.

    Further, that EVs are just another car, and fill a niche for some folks, just as commuter rigs or plow trucks or haulers do.

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    A.
    No-one knows.
    Neither do the governments.

    What we do know, as a fact for 3-4 years, is that every 12-18 months, global BEC (NEV) sales double, and that the trend is accelerating.
    Current BEV/NEV sales are 1-2-3%, around 2%, globally, in OECD countries.
    This is likely to be 3-4% end of 2017, and 5-8%, end of 2018.

    Thus, around 2018, +/- 1 year, the market disrupts.

    Obviously, as I always have said, the tax revenue mix will change.
    +And the current benefits to BEVs (major) will be reduced, somewhat.
    +And the current subsidies in externalities (major) to the fossil fuel industries will be reduced, greatly, as less fossil fuels are used for auto use aka mobility.

    Governments will get less revenue from fossil fuel taxes - yes.
    However they will also spend (a lot) less on fossil fuel infrastructure costs, and external costs related to this, like energy security, general ff related security costs, healthcare costs, etc.

    The overall situation will lead to everyone in general getting wealthier -
    apart from FF-based industries in extraction, midstream, and final-use industries.

    This is generally a good thing - and the majority of people support this, including in the USA.

    It is of note that reducing support for BEV/NEVs would be political suicide in the EU or china.
    Thus, fast major new taxes are very unlikely to happen, in the near term 2-5 years.

    The US is a special case - and I make no predictions.
    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    Hanermo, I repeat my question.
    Question was;
    "Ok, given your rosy predictions of electric car adaption, what year will governments have to start replacing petroleum taxes with some other income source?"

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    As a side note, the electric car is inspiring to me but its far from an ideal at this point. The home battery that allows you to store electricity that your solar/turbine generates is the real deal that ties it all together. With out this you are still relying on coal and natural gas to produce your electricity. Once the batteries come down in price and they are proven to last then I will happily invest into this system. Clean energy transportation is only one factor of the equation. A home that produces almost everything it needs energy wise is another. Check out earthships, I think it is fantastic to see so many systems that are well thought out being used practicly in a home. The only thing Im not huge on is the use of tires for packing dirt for thermal mass. Earthship Biotecture - Radically Sustainable Buildings

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    Quote Originally Posted by PegroProX440 View Post
    As a side note, the electric car is inspiring to me but its far from an ideal at this point. The home battery that allows you to store electricity that your solar/turbine generates is the real deal that ties it all together. With out this you are still relying on coal and natural gas to produce your electricity....
    In a lot of places one can choose the energy source. Hydro is a big player in the northeast- it all depends on the utility. And rooftop solar arrays can be gridtied - usually quite a bit cheaper/kWh than an independent battery bank system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I have never disagreed with that niche part. What I strongly disagree with is the BEV FanBoy belief that they are suited for everyone and are going to replace all ICE cars.
    Agreed. Clearly wishful thinking. We'll see. Hard to know the future. And maybe it will happen. Would that be desirable, in your opinion?

    Question: What will the "cost per mile" be if you own a BEV long enough to have to replace a battery that may cost $5,000 to $10,000?.... Someone here mentioned used low mileage off-lease BEVs for $8,500. Think the expected battery life might give a clue for the low cost?
    Good question. I think the new owners of the off lease Leafs (Leaves? ) are prob wondering about that, too. Even if the batteries have to be replaced at your numbers, that still looks like an OK deal to me.

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    A:
    No-one knows.

    Today, the only compelling aka good electric car available for any time is the Tesla Model S.
    Oldest Model S in qty are about 3 (3.5) years old, now, 1/2017.

    They have an 8 year battery warranty.
    So does the Model X.
    Presumably, the new Tesla Model 3 will also have an 8 year battery warranty.

    Today, the Tesla Model 3, 2170 cells, seem to have a pack cost of == 100$ for Tesla.
    Given that the first cars for Model 3 will be out later in 2017, the earliest out-of-warranty packs would be == 2026.

    Battery costs drop 50% every 4-5 years. Trend is accelerating (globally as well).
    Drop is == 8-9% year/year, exponential.

    In 2016, a kWh of battery will cost about 120 (costs, manufacturer, CY 2017 or now) x 1 / 1.09 pwr 9 = 2.17 times less.
    Say 129$/2.17 == 55 $.
    Say 55 $ x 60 kWH = 3317$, => 4500$ retail.

    SO,..
    own vehicle 18 years.
    Buy new battery year 9.
    Total 300.000 miles in 18 years, => 16.666 m/y.

    Extra battery replacement cost 4500$ / 300.000 miles = 0.015 $, or 1.5 cents per mile.

    Current data says a good, big battery as similar to a Tesla, last 15-20 years, to 80% usable capacity.
    Thus You would never replace it.
    Some Teslas (2 at least) have been driven 200.000 miles, with 7% degradation, and 160.000 miles, 6% degradation.

    Both point to 400-500.000 miles usable lifetime.
    Data is compelling from both ends of the calculation.

    With a Big Battery, thermally managed, batteries are a non-issue re: usable costs.

    All above should be contrasted with fuel savings of approx 0.10-0.20 $ / mile, USA, 0.40+ € / mile, EU and OECD.
    US variance depending on weather You charge at night for cheap, or not.

    Global gas prices are 3-5x higher than the US == 1.5-2$/gallon.

    Global power in kWh is approx 3-4 cents, just line in the US, 3-4 cents, nighttime (or) electric car rate.
    Global power avg. == 0.12 €, and US is == 0.12$, so the US is about 10-15% cheaper (re: USD exchange rate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Question: What will the "cost per mile" be if you own a BEV long enough to have to replace a battery that may cost $5,000 to $10,000?
    Last edited by hanermo; 02-01-2017 at 06:22 AM. Reason: corrected typo of 1.02 to 1.09

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  18. #74
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    Agree completely.

    But;
    More electric cars means more nighttime electricity use.

    This makes the utilities more profits, and naturally the utilities then have a major incentive in $$$ to improve the grid, and more profits + competition will then bring rates down.
    More electric cars will thus reduce costs, and improve the grid.

    My observations are business-based.

    Such that all car markets are global, and no car company is profitable selling into a single market, e.g. the USA only.
    No-one has said all cars must be electric.

    A BEV will be much cheaper for most people in the world.
    Less cheaper in the USA, yes.

    Thus, most people globally will want or prefer a BEV, once good decently priced ones are available.
    Thus, most auto companies will focus on making great BEVs/NEVs.
    This has actually already happened, mostly.
    Yes, it has.
    There are about 80 new models coming from every major auto company, by YE 2020, i.e. in 2-3 years.
    Most will be technically weak, at first. The GM Bolt is an example.

    (Energy density on battery is 10% less than old Tesla, and == 40% less than new Tesla.
    Safety is compromised, with crap in front of users, and thus a shorter crumple zone.
    7 kW home-charging is pathetic, vs 22 kW on Tesla.
    50 kW fast charging, nonexistent, 25 kW real, is pathetic vs 125 kW on Tesla.)

    However, it is more or less certain one or more will be good to very good.
    Very quickly, only the companies making excellent BEVs will stay on the market.

    The problems Old Big Auto have:
    -Debt,
    -Liabilities,
    -Old workforce.
    Ex.
    GM has 160B in debt/liabilities. Thus, any change to their business model will BK them, again, since they then cannot or could not service the debt in the future.
    GM has 300% the debt / sales vs Tesla.

    Once a major subset of auto companies transition to BEVs, the cost to produce ICE cars gets relatively higher, since they become a minor subset of the market.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post

    What is NOT desirable is to be forced into limited technology at the same time the electric supply is made more expensive and less reliable by pushing yet to be perfected technologies on us for political reasons.


    That may be fine for them but it probably wouldn't for me.

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    Default BEV / NEV disruption results, imho

    Results:
    Cars (BEV) get cheaper. A lot cheaper.

    It is very simple and easy to make an electric car, vs an ICE car.
    An electric car has about 20 (major) components vs 100+ in an ICE car.

    Most of the hard-to-do engineering in an ICE is not needed in a BEV.
    About 2/3 of all the really hard engineering know-how in current ICE cars gets obsolete.

    It is hard to make ICE-type reliable, powerful, cheap powertrains, gearboxes, engines. transmissions, etc.
    Cheap and good and reliable.
    Current ICE manufacturers aka Big Auto have mastered it.
    None of it will be valuable in the future.

    1.
    It is also hard, and totally new for Big Auto, to make really efficient good VFDs at high power (200 kW) very cheaply (1000$ or less, soon 300$ or less).

    But this is very very easy to copy/emulate, and once any one company has mastered it, many others can and will be supplying such components.

    The costs are low(ish), and dropping fast. IGBTs in qty are cheap. All electronics in 10M+ quantities become dirt cheap fast.

    2.
    It is hard to make
    1. very powerful 3-phase motors
    2. very efficiently
    3. very cheaply
    4. with great longevity

    3.
    It is really, really hard to make
    - very long lasting lion batteries,
    - of very high energy density,
    - with high C rates in and out,
    - with good thermal resistance to climates both hot and cold,
    - cheaply.

    Parts 1. and 2. will become commodities relatively quickly, in 3-4 years.
    This is the lead-time Tesla has, as they have been doing them for 12+ years.

    Tesla has made 12 versions of their VFD, to date.
    All the time it gets more efficient, has higher max amps, and is cheaper to make.
    Current ones do 1600 amps, when 2 years ago it was 1000.
    And it is cheaper to manufacture, now.

    Obviously, other companies will be able to do the same, but it will take them 3-4 years to perfect it, reliably.
    1600 amps x 400 volts == 640 kW !

    It is very, very hard to make power electronics cheap, and highly reliable in harsh conditions, while withstanding the heat from the losses at 640 kW.
    In a small, light, cheap package.
    In essence, imagine a servo drive of 640 kW in a cnc machine.

    At only 4% losses, thats 24 kW of pure heat !
    24 kW of heat would melt any cnc control in the world.

    Example:
    Compare the VFD to a main spindle vector drive on a CNC.
    The heavy big 40 HP vector drive (=VFD) is about 8000€, HAAS VF series, iirc.
    Tesla does a 640 kW (peak) one for about 1000$ in costs.

    Just like servo drive costs have dropped about 50x..
    The VFD costs will also drop, once the global marketplace masters this.
    This will take 3-5 years.

    2 - drive motors.
    3-phase motors are simple, cheap, rugged, reliable.
    The key is improving the efficiency, just a little bit.
    From 92-94% to 96% or more.
    Again, pretty hard to do, but all manufacturers will eventually master it.
    This will take 3-5 years.

    3. Batteries
    This is the hardest part technically.
    However due to vast sums of money, it is most likely all sorts of better technical solutions will appear, in time.

    If they don´t, LG Chem and others will also keep improving and innovating bit by bit, and within a timeframe "x", will have excellent next-generation chemistries available.

    Once all the key parts 1,2,3 are available as cots components cheaply, disruption happens.
    Anyone can make a "race car" BEV.
    Costs will be low.

    Battery at 60-80$/kWH, 70 kWhx80 = 5600 $.
    Engine, 1500$ for 400 kW / 600 Hp (could be as low as 500$. Its only 28 kg in mass).
    Final drive, 500$.
    VFD, 500$.
    8100$ for all the hard bits, add kit-car of choice (6-9000$ in qty 10k+).
    6000$ for normal-commuter, 250HP, 50 kW.

    Some might note that this de-values Tesla as a company.
    Not at all.
    Just like Apple / iPhone .. vs android phones.

    Tesla (or another brand) will, I think, most-likely occupy the high end niche, as a compelling desirable aspirational brand.
    Similar to Apple. Or, say BMW/Audi today.

    And any nr of other BEV products with great value will be available from other brands.
    Winners will be us, the users.
    Losers will be those companies that do not quickly adopt, embrace and master the new paradigm shift in cars and mobility.

    My very positive comments re:Tesla are only due to the fact that they attacked, themselves, the core issues
    1. power electronics
    2. drive motors
    3. batteries
    plus charging infrastructure model,
    software model,
    service model,
    distribution model.

    They did all 7. difficult problems really well.
    More importantly, they solved them so that they are by any reasonable technical metric the nr 1 leader in the world at each of these vertical segments.

    Sure, they spent perhaps 3B at it, and another 3-5B in building infra and assets.
    By reports, 62% of Tesla personnel (13.000 in cars) work in SW development or related areas.
    Big Auto, 3%.
    Sure, Tesla has 3-4x more personnel vs Toyota, per car produced.
    And perhaps 15% is R&D, 10% is global sales & service.
    And soon, 6-12 months they start to produce 2x more cars, 200k / year.
    And soon, say 2018/2019, 500k cars, with perhaps 16.000 personnel.
    At that point they are potentially more ! efficient than Toyota.
    And sure, they will spend another 3-5 B by YE 2018.

    But at 500k units, 35B in turnover, YE 2018/2019.

    My posts are not specifically about Tesla.
    They were the first good BEV auto firm,
    are the best at this time technically,
    transformed the industry,
    and may actually become the nr 1 company in the world by market cap.
    This seems increasingly likely, at this time.

    To me, this is both incredible, and unbelievable.
    I cannot believe how again, all major engineering and auto companies totally ignore the BEV/NEV/lion area, and use ostrich management with head-in-sand.

    Not because Tesla is so fantastically good -- because all others in Big Auto are myopic. Still.

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    I don´t own an electric car. Yet. Tesla does not yet, quite, sell in Spain.
    I would not buy a Tesla S, now.

    I don´t have stock in electric car companies.
    BYD is far too risky - china issues.
    Tesla is too risky, and is highly valued.

    We have an excellent Nissan Qashqai SUV/CUV 7 seater, and my mobility costs are effectively zero, ie non-relevant. Perhaps 70€/month in diesel.
    Parking alone costs over 100€/month, on the 20% of days we park in the city. This is also a non-relevant business expense for us.

    As I think I mentioned somewhere, so far I have not seen a way to monetize the imminent major disruption of big auto and mobility.
    E.
    Buying far out of the money puts in big auto is not a winning strategy as an investment. Imo.
    I would give it a 1/5 chance of success, over 1 year timeframe, with a probable 20:1 payoff.
    In theory, it makes sense. In practice, no.

    The problem is theta, or time-decay, and the fact that markets can stay irrational longer than I can keep paying.
    I could see perhaps a 5k€ bet on same, as lost money.
    If you win, great, You made 100k €. Real money, to an extent.
    If you lose, perhaps less summer vacation.

    Likewise, buying say 30k Tesla stock.
    Sure, it is likely to go 300% up in 2-3 years on fundamentals.
    There are any nr of technical major risks of very low likelyhood it craters, as a stock.
    - Legal, say due to 1-2 people dying spectacularly.
    - Perception. US hysteria for whatever reason and lower BEV support.
    - Batteries on perception. Any publicity re: cheap competition might wipe out a lot of value.

    Most-all the Tesla risks are mostly perception, and not fundamentals.
    But Tesla still depends a lot on perception, for another 6-12 months.

    E.
    Right now, the top-4-5 PV stocks are hugely undervalued, on fundamentals.
    They will come back, and appreciate 100-300%, and then grow 20-30% y/y, as sales grow.
    I was heavily into PV, 5-6 years back.

    Electric cars are relatively common here.
    2.4% of new cars sold 2016 were electric.
    Trend is accelerating.

    It is a fair question, and I gave a fair answer.

    You write pretty d**n well, and even though we disagree on this subject, Your posts are well-written, grammatically very good, and often astute.

    If I did have a position in a BEV stock, or other financial interest, I would have no problem saying so. Nothing wrong with it- imo.
    If I worked for say a battery company or BEV or related interest I would say so. I don´t.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Hanermo,
    Do you actually OWN an electric car yet, or just stock in a company that makes them?

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    Tesla, Are You Kidding Me? | Zero Hedge

    On the other hand...Trevor

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    My wife would do well with an electric car but she would come home and then ask me to go plug it in.
    She would then have to rent a normal car for a rare trip.

    But she loves her jeep liberty so would never consider one.

    I drive way to much and long trips to consider one.

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    Problem one is that despite numbers some spout it is cheaper to build a ICE engine and 8 speed auto-tranny than an electric.
    Nobody is selling electric cars at a profit yet without taxpayer's, government, internal funding help.
    ...NO ONE... is not happening.
    If you think otherwise buy yourself a clue in auto production and spend some time with top management and the bean counters.
    One invests in this as a future, not a money making market now.

    A great idea and maybe (certainly?) the future but not here yet.
    This is economics 101, we need $150 a barrel oil or high taxes on fossil fuels. Both of these will come.

    Problem two, resale. Three to four year old car of both types, what can you sell it for?
    Price to own is new minus resale. All good to lower your gas bill but you want to sell that car and get a new one.
    If your sell price used is 5-10 grand less than a normal car this buys a lot of gasoline.
    This may change down the road but today and now ......

    If oil and natural gas had followed the predictions from 25 years back we would be all about electric and small cars now.
    But today we sit with small fuel efficient car sales falling off the cliff.
    The plants are shutting down the assembly lines on such laying off lots of people.
    Instead a big push and overtime on SUV's which is what the market is buying.

    Sure many think automakers are brain dead but you build what the consumer is buying and you do not argue with what they want to lay cash on the line for.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    Good question. I think the new owners of the off lease Leafs (Leaves? ) are prob wondering about that, too. Even if the batteries have to be replaced at your numbers, that still looks like an OK deal to me.
    My Leaf is a CPO car, bought from Nissan. Battery still has three years of warranty. I bought it as it's a car that will need no work. I have plenty to work on already!

    As far as power and the grid go's, my provider offers a different rate for EV's, if you put in a separate meter. They also offer (for a short time) an unlimited charge service for a flat rate. Currently, I do not have a level two EVSE at home, I just trickle charge with the 110 evse the car came with. I drive for a week without needing a charge; and this is in winter when I use the heat.

    As far as the draw on the grid, and how the current infrastructure isn't up to the standards needed for all of us to drive EV's: Nissan announce schemes to ‘revolutionise’ electric vehicles into mobile storage devices - YouTube

    The cars could actually solve the issues associated with storing energy produced by alternative sources (wind, solar) when it's not sunny/windy. A powerwall parked in your driveway.


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