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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    If only we could get something like that here. Smallish pu w/ 4 cyl diesel and 5 sp? Not available in the states, though everywhere else in the world....
    Because 'we' want a V8

    Truly small pickups are always useful, but we are old, fat and rich, and subsidize gasoline, so v8s are the rule.
    Remember when 1978 Toyota pickups with a 5 speed were everywhere?
    It was the last time gasoline was truly viewed as 'expensive' for any length of time

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  3. #362
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    More on topic:


    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...cyWK8RBYbbAJgc

    We'll see if this is real or imaginary

  4. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Wrong question....a manual tranny with a simple single countershaft gearbox and an open single plate clutch ,not including any kind of stupid dual weight flywheel or sealed unit clutch.....Very ,very few .....I went looking for a new pickup to replace my Ford Courier,even Toyota has too much complication,and their diesel particulate system is problematic......So I still have my 2006 Ford diesel pickup ,made in Thailand ......and its a damn good little truck ....with a 5 speed manual trans.and 2 wheel drive.
    Same reason I keep my Isuzu 2003 turbo diesel 5 speed flat tray 4WD.....

    PDW

  5. #364
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    Many companies have tried to sell small pickups with manual transmissions and 4 cylinder diesels in the USA.

    The simple truth is-

    Nobody buys em.

    The pickup market is about 95% automatics.
    Thats below the overall US market for new cars, which is closer to 99% automatics.

    The people here, on this thread, who say they would buy one- they buy used cars- someone who does that, the Automakers dont consider to be a customer.

    Actual customers, the ones who buy new trucks, buy V8s and automatics.

    The numbers are simple, and havent changed in close to 40 years.

    Money talks. Bullshit walks. The Auto industry wants customers who actually spend money.
    And then, it builds cars that are selling.

    The Toyota 1 ton, that sold from 85 to 92, was a miserable seller in the USA.

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  7. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Many companies have tried to sell small pickups with manual transmissions and 4 cylinder diesels in the USA....

    Nobody buys em.....
    Nobody buys 'em because they're not available. They don't meet EPA regs.

    Small pickups with 4 cylinder gas engines are pretty good sellers around here.

  8. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    Nobody buys 'em because they're not available. They don't meet EPA regs.

    Small pickups with 4 cylinder gas engines are pretty good sellers around here.
    Every time they HAVE been available, since 1970, they have been terrible sellers. A couple of years after they were brand new, you could pick up an Isuzu / Chevy Luv diesel for peanuts- I knew lots of starving artists who drove $500 versions, because they were so cheap. Same thing with those teeny diesel rabbit pickups- they came out, in the USA, in 79. By 1981, they were so cheap that friends of mine who didnt have "real" jobs were buying em, because, by then, slant six dodges had become "collectible" which means they cost more than a grand.

    The early (late sixties, early 70s) toyotas and nissans were similar- they were heavily discounted new, and dropped in value like stones. I had a 66 Toyota Stout for a while- simple, small, 3 on the tree, tough as nails. I got it in near perfect condition, with low miles, for $600 in the mid 70s, and NOBODY wanted one.

    Same thing with those "Ford" couriers- actually Mazdas. They basically would throw one in free if you bought a Mustang, at the dealer. As used cars, they were even cheaper than real Mazdas.

    As "recently" as 25 years ago, dealers for the big 3 would have a row of 40 new full size pickups, and 2 or 3 of the Rangers or S10s, and even then, the only S10s that sold were the ones with the biggest engines and slushboxes.

    There is no conspiracy to deny you the goods- the sales numbers prove my point, and the automakers will respond instantly to sales increases.

    Nationally, "pretty good sellers" means a million cars a year.
    Currently, the only 4 cylinder pickups for sale in the USA are-
    Ford Ranger (new this year) Chevy/GM, Nissan, and Toyota, and for all three, the national 4 cylinder numbers are much smaller than the six cylinder versions.
    Chevy sells around a hundred thousand Colorados a year, total. Of those, I dont know what the 4/6 ratio is, but my guess is that its tilted towards the sixes.

    Tesla sold twice as many cars in the USA as total Colorado sales in 2019.
    The real numbers are behind paywalls, but I would be pretty sure that in 2019, electric car sales in the USA surpassed 4 cylinder pickup sales, by quite a bit.

    People buy what they want.
    Car makers make what sells.

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  10. #367
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    Crazy part is the power coming out of these 4-bangers today. 300 HP from the little Ford ecoboost 4 cyl, that's old school V8 power.

    Back in 1990, Acura Legend- they thought a 200 hp V6 was too much for a FWD car.

    The ecoboost V6 has been pushed to 700 HP with stock crankshafts and pistons, and powers the new Ford GT. 647 HP and 500 ft/lbs to the rear wheels.

  11. #368
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    My 1981 diesel Rabbit truck is my favorite truck I have owned. It can haul almost anything a half ton can in the bed and gets 50 mpgs. I was on the hunt for a 1 ton dually but am now leaning towards a class 6-8 truck. Either take the Rabbit or the Semi

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    Some very interesting points in this thread.

    What I would have considered unthinkable a few years ago has happened, and we are getting a fully EV as our 'family car' (I have a Diesel works van as well)- I live in the UK

    Whats changed for me ? The car is a Kia E Niro (small ish sports utility). It has a real world range of 250 miles on a charge, sub 7 seconds 0-60

    Cost £38,000 gbp, then the government gives £ 3,500 towards it, so 'on the road' £ 34,500. - however the interesting bit is the company car tax rate charged on it.

    At the moment we lease a Mazda diesel sports utility through the company for approx £ 350.00 per month on a 3 yr lease. The 'benefit in kind' tax payed from your salary is about £ 150.00 per month on the 'perk' of a company car.

    The company will lease the Electric car on like for like basis as the Diesel for about £400.00 per month, and I pay Zero 'benefit in kind' tax for electric - Saving £150 a month. (the company is however paying £50 a month more for the EV)

    We then in addition save approx £ 100 a month on fuel.

    So our household saving on getting the EV as a company car is £3000 a year. Company is 12x £50 a year worse off as the lease cost is a bit higher a month, but its tax deductible.

    Im not yet convinced about 'saving the planet' with an EV, but I think air quality around Schools etc is important, and im 100% convinced about saving a lot of money every year!

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    It will be interesting to see if the new 1000hp electric GM Hummer will outsell the 47 horsepower VW diesel rabbit pickup. (the rabbit sold a whopping 2800 cars in its second year of production, although, in total, something around 75,000 were made in the USA)

    But even though its (shudder) electric, I cant imagine that 1000 hp wont attract a fair amount of buyers.

    GM's Electric Hummer and Pickup Plans May Jolt Future Earnings Higher | The Motley Fool

    GM is building a $2.3 Billion dollar battery factory in Ohio. And another $3 Billion to update the Hamtramck plant to make electric trucks and SUVS.
    Obviously somebody thinks electric cars arent just a tax supported hoax...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    It will be interesting to see if the new 1000hp electric GM Hummer will outsell the 47 horsepower VW diesel rabbit pickup. (the rabbit sold a whopping 2800 cars in its second year of production, although, in total, something around 75,000 were made in the USA)

    But even though its (shudder) electric, I cant imagine that 1000 hp wont attract a fair amount of buyers.

    GM's Electric Hummer and Pickup Plans May Jolt Future Earnings Higher | The Motley Fool

    GM is building a $2.3 Billion dollar battery factory in Ohio. And another $3 Billion to update the Hamtramck plant to make electric trucks and SUVS.
    Obviously somebody thinks electric cars arent just a tax supported hoax...
    I would bet that a lot of well off people would buy an electric Hummer for the trendy factor. Drive a Hummer and when someone criticizes the choice virtuously point out that "It's an electric". I expect a lot of celebs will buy them for that reason.

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    I expect a lot more people will buy them because 1000 horsepower and 0 to 60 in 3 seconds and 11,500 foot pounds of torque, and could care less if they ran on chicken manure. "Celebs" do not buy 400 hp dodge rams. I actually lived in LA when Arnold had 3 converted military hummers. All the "celebs" laughed at him. A hummer is a hummer, and its a big, macho vehicle, no amount of "eco" can make it anything else. Believe me, Gweneth Paltrow will not be buying one of these.

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  17. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    ...GM is building a $2.3 Billion dollar battery factory in Ohio. And another $3 Billion to update the Hamtramck plant to make electric trucks and SUVS.
    Obviously somebody thinks electric cars arent just a tax supported hoax...
    Well, the US taxpayer lost something like $140 million on the A123 plant that was supposed to make the batteries for the Volt.

    I'll bet if you look deeper, you'll find DOE funding behind this one too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Well, the US taxpayer lost something like $140 million on the A123 plant that was supposed to make the batteries for the Volt.

    I'll bet if you look deeper, you'll find DOE funding behind this one too...
    Well, small potatoes compared to what GM cost, what 11 billion.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Well, small potatoes compared to what GM cost, what 11 billion.....
    True, and that doesn't count the something like $5 Billion in DOE grants to the Big 3.

    The battery makers have proven adept at securing taxpayer funding. LG Chem got the DOE to pay for half of the Holland, Michigan plant too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post
    Well, the US taxpayer lost something like $140 million on the A123 plant that was supposed to make the batteries for the Volt.

    I'll bet if you look deeper, you'll find DOE funding behind this one too...
    as far as I can tell, they went to a different government- the KOREANS. LG is putting up a Billion, and GM will be getting some State of Ohio tax breaks, but I cant find any evidence of federal funding. Could be, though, I will keep looking.

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    Good gosh- $130 bucks up today.

    That 23 billion added to market cap TODAY..

    Wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Good gosh- $130 bucks up today.

    That 23 billion added to market cap TODAY..

    Wow.
    This is why the stock market is such bullshit. The value of the company didn't change ten cents. The price of the stock zooms all over hell but that has nothing to do with the real values of any company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Every time they HAVE been available, since 1970, they have been terrible sellers.....

    There is no conspiracy to deny you the goods- the sales numbers prove my point, and the automakers will respond instantly to sales increases....People buy what they want. Car makers make what sells.
    All true, and (not but) it's impossible to buy a truck that's not for sale.

    Modern Mitsubishi and Toyota Hilux 4wd 4cyl direct injection diesels are ubiquitous in South America. Apparently popular down under, too. (An historic aside: apparently Hiluxes and Stinger missiles were the cement of the Afghani mujahadeen/US unholy alliance.)

    Having driven both, modern 4cyl diesels are a far cry from the IDI engines of yesteryear. VW's TDIs were a pretty good seller here in the states, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    All true, and (not but) it's impossible to buy a truck that's not for sale.
    That still puzzles me ... sure, little 4 bangers are not available today because "no one buys them" but when the Ranger (originally a small 4 cylinder) and the S-10 and the Dakota (slightly larger but still not big) and even the VW Rabbitchero were available, companies bought a ton of them for light, cheap, versatile utility vehicles. Everybody I knew had one. Literally.

    That market just vanished ? Stores decided a $50,000 behemoth with a V10 made a better delivery truck than an S-10 ?

    I can't get my head around that. If it's true, you guys are nuts.


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