Electric cars worldwide - and Tesla - Page 24
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 24 of 27 FirstFirst ... 142223242526 ... LastLast
Results 461 to 480 of 532
  1. #461
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    dallas,tx
    Posts
    2,541
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    587
    Likes (Received)
    475

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    the whole reason we will see more electric cars, as opposed to turbines, is cause in mass production, they are cheaper. I used to work with companies in LA that did overhauls on turbines- and boy, everything about em is expensive. Forged, then 5 axis milled, titanium parts, incredible precision.
    versus-
    pretty simple electric motors and a battery.

    electric cars get cheaper and cheaper, and, long term, are incredibly cheap to maintain.

    no starter. no generator. no radiator. no water pump. no fuel pump. no carb or fuel injectors. no head that gets too hot and needs to be machined flat again. no hoses. no hose clamps. no exhaust tubing or muffler.
    all the stuff I have spent what seems like half my life replacing, sometimes multiple times over the life of the car- its just not there.

    And most of em have regenerative braking. That means you dont use the brake pedal. that means you dont replace the brake pads, or have the disc remachined.

    A man could get used to this.
    This!!! And every car manufacturer knows it. Less parts , Less labor.

  2. #462
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Waukesha, WI
    Posts
    1,757
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    413
    Likes (Received)
    561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    the whole reason we will see more electric cars, as opposed to turbines, is cause in mass production, they are cheaper. I used to work with companies in LA that did overhauls on turbines- and boy, everything about em is expensive. Forged, then 5 axis milled, titanium parts, incredible precision.
    versus-
    pretty simple electric motors and a battery.

    electric cars get cheaper and cheaper, and, long term, are incredibly cheap to maintain.

    no starter. no generator. no radiator. no water pump. no fuel pump. no carb or fuel injectors. no head that gets too hot and needs to be machined flat again. no hoses. no hose clamps. no exhaust tubing or muffler.
    all the stuff I have spent what seems like half my life replacing, sometimes multiple times over the life of the car- its just not there.

    And most of em have regenerative braking. That means you dont use the brake pedal. that means you dont replace the brake pads, or have the disc remachined.

    A man could get used to this.
    The counter to this though is the battery itself. Anyone who has ever owned an electric forklift knows it. There's no practical way to fix the battery, repair the battery, or upgrade the battery. Over time the battery gets worse and worse and some point the forklift, or car, is totaled because the battery is bad. Buy a used electric forklift and price a battery replacement. Cheaper to buy another forklift. Would you rather buy a used electric forklift or gas? I choose gas every time because it can be fixed and probably for not a lot of money. Bad battery, you're screwed.

  3. #463
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Country
    AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    2,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    10
    Likes (Received)
    809

    Default

    Which is why Toyota is betting on ammonia fuel cells....Quick ,if smelly,refuel.And the Saudis are putting billions into anything that uses their oil .

  4. #464
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    People's Republic
    Posts
    3,770
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    330
    Likes (Received)
    2409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adh2000 View Post
    The counter to this though is the battery itself. Anyone who has ever owned an electric forklift knows it. There's no practical way to fix the battery, repair the battery, or upgrade the battery. Over time the battery gets worse and worse and some point the forklift, or car, is totaled because the battery is bad. Buy a used electric forklift and price a battery replacement. Cheaper to buy another forklift. Would you rather buy a used electric forklift or gas? I choose gas every time because it can be fixed and probably for not a lot of money. Bad battery, you're screwed.
    Uhh, except by and large the batteries dont die

    ICE engines need constant maintenance that battery don't
    no oil changes
    noair filters
    no spark plugs

    yet you whine when after x years a battery needs replacement

    EV batteries last much longer than lead acid forklift batteries

    PRius batteries last well over 100k[they are warranteed for that, real life seems to be twice that, IOW pretty much life of vehicle

    Unless abused Tesla batteries seem to be doing well also, over 150k.

    In 150k miles you would be close to a grand into oil changes in an ICE car. That's just oil changes

    Some EV owners will abuse their batteries, some ICE owners run their cars without oil ....

  5. #465
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    People's Republic
    Posts
    3,770
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    330
    Likes (Received)
    2409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Losses in the hybrid drive reduce range over a pure EV with direct drive.

    BUT, 17 miles is plenty enough for local errands and if you misjudge the range the gas engine gets you home. 17 miles would easily get me to and from the grocery stores, hardware etc. in my own and neighboring towns. Plug-in hybrids are still in an early stage and since most of them use Atkinson cycle engines the engines use less fuel when they run.

    Major advantage? You don't need an electric PLUS a gasoline fueled backup for trips.

    Again I ask; have you already bought a BEV or plan to in the near future? What about a hybrid? You seem to be a hard-core advocate of BEVs - for other people!

    The technology is constantly improving not just for batteries and electric drives but also for IC engines. Two developments with major potential are camless engines, which can be run as either Atkinson cycle or Otto cycle, and variable compression stroke designs which offer similar benefits.

    The hybrid of the future might have better battery range along with an IC engine that can be a fuel-sipping econo model one minute and a pavement ripping monster the next. One of the possible advantages of the camless technology is the elimination of waste gates for turbos by having separate valves that can be computer controlled to best suit the desired mode.

    Right now I have no plans or desire to own a pure BEV. I wouldn't even take one as a gift but I may buy a lightly used hybrid or plug-in hybrid in the not too distant future.

    Nope, the iC engine is far from dead, and married to electric drive it is the perfect vehicle for the current era while engineers and scientists sort out the issues that prevent large scale adoption of BEVs.
    Scott

    I realize you hate it when people don't' accept your right wing drivel as gospel just because you say so.

    This thread was not started asking who owned what kind of car. You rant against BEVs and I don't care whether you want to own one or not. You spew misstatements and full on BS in support of your opinion and I argue against it.
    I do not think that more than 10 percent of the people who own 1 ton dually pickups need one, but I do not argue against whether they should exist or not even though they would be impossible for many, many people to own[for parking alone!] Thus we do not argue about dually pickups. And I don't care whether you own one of those either

    Your inability to support your opinions against fact has nothing to do with what kind of vehicle anyone owns

    I too support Hybrids, and think that serial hybrids will make ICE engines and the existing infrastructure exist for many decades


    Oh, and as it turns out, I do own a BEV......an Electric Tractor.

    Does everything any ICE tractor does, cuts my lawn, hauls brush and stone, plows or snow blows my driveway[and half my street] Have had it for 12 years. I will never voluntarily own any small gas engine again.
    You can raise all the nonsense arguments about those too, and they will be just as false.

  6. #466
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Eastern Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    4,908
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4868
    Likes (Received)
    4864

    Default

    As usual gustafson you have to throw in this right wing label because I disagree with you. An electric lawn tractor is in no way comparable to a road going BEV because it never leaves your yard so no, you don't actually own a BEV.

    I don't give a rat's ass if you or anyone else wants to own one but stop preaching their virtues without acknowledging their drawbacks. In the California wildfire thread someone mentioned a person they knew who was unable to charge their BEV for weeks due to widespread power outages. That IS a real world problem as are the issues related to remote areas without public chargers and people such as apartment dwellers who can't charge at home.

    And FYI I don't "rant against BEVs". I point out the real world charging issues that make them impractical for many people at the current level of technology and infrastructure. I know several people who own them, including Teslas, and NONE of them own them as a sole vehicle. All own at least one IC vehicle as a backup.

    I practice what I preach. I own cars powered by gasoline. When you and the other fan boys who attempt to gloss over the issues with BEVs actually buy and operate ROAD GOING battery electric passenger vehicles you will have more credibility. Until then you are just paper lions spouting theory and statistics.

  7. #467
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES MINOR OUTLYING ISLANDS
    Posts
    3,755
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    A small trailer was shown with a Kubota diesel genset inside, just for a pure electric vehicle, you could rent this, for extended driving.
    Too complicated, digger. Just drop a wheel onto the road with a Sturmey-Archer Dynohub in it. Recharge while you drive !

  8. #468
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Flushing/Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    8,350
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    436
    Likes (Received)
    6874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    .....

    And FYI I don't "rant against BEVs". .
    Well actually you kind of do.
    Not saying it bad or not on your side but ...... you do it, so do I on occasion.
    No need to try to explain or justify as others who love the other side won't listen. Are you married?
    I know people who own only one EV and those who own no autos, zero, zip.
    I wonder how that works. How do you get into your mid-late 30s in the US and never had a drivers license and don't even know where the gas and brake pedal is?
    Yet people do it now. You hire it out.
    Bob

  9. Likes Greg White, neilho liked this post
  10. #469
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    16,595
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Too complicated, digger. Just drop a wheel onto the road with a Sturmey-Archer Dynohub in it. Recharge while you drive !
    to both you and Scottl.....I didn't propose the damn thing, I merely explained how I saw it in a magazine/news story.

    IIRC it was part of the Tesla system, they proposed it.

    FWIW I actually can doo math, don't even need to remove footwear to count above 10 either,
    so concerns on the efficiency I understand.

  11. #470
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    People's Republic
    Posts
    3,770
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    330
    Likes (Received)
    2409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    As usual gustafson you have to throw in this right wing label because I disagree with you. An electric lawn tractor is in no way comparable to a road going BEV because it never leaves your yard so no, you don't actually own a BEV.

    I don't give a rat's ass if you or anyone else wants to own one but stop preaching their virtues without acknowledging their drawbacks. In the California wildfire thread someone mentioned a person they knew who was unable to charge their BEV for weeks due to widespread power outages. That IS a real world problem as are the issues related to remote areas without public chargers and people such as apartment dwellers who can't charge at home.

    And FYI I don't "rant against BEVs". I point out the real world charging issues that make them impractical for many people at the current level of technology and infrastructure. I know several people who own them, including Teslas, and NONE of them own them as a sole vehicle. All own at least one IC vehicle as a backup.

    I practice what I preach. I own cars powered by gasoline. When you and the other fan boys who attempt to gloss over the issues with BEVs actually buy and operate ROAD GOING battery electric passenger vehicles you will have more credibility. Until then you are just paper lions spouting theory and statistics.
    Scott, you will make up anything, believe any BS that shows BEV in a bad light, that is a rant.

    I feel no compunction to shore up your arguments, do it yourself

    Power outages? Lessee, what else doesn't wok in power outages.......oh yeah, gas pumps

    I am sure it makes you feel better to personally discount others arguments, but it makes you no more convincing

  12. #471
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES MINOR OUTLYING ISLANDS
    Posts
    3,755
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    to both you and Scottl.....I didn't propose the damn thing, I merely explained how I saw it in a magazine/news story.
    It wasnt that bad an idea tho ... except instead of some honkin big thing, just toss a Honda generator in the back of your Tesla pickup

  13. #472
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Eastern Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    4,908
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4868
    Likes (Received)
    4864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Well actually you kind of do.
    Not saying it bad or not on your side but ...... you do it, so do I on occasion.
    No need to try to explain or justify as others who love the other side won't listen. Are you married?
    I know people who own only one EV and those who own no autos, zero, zip.
    I wonder how that works. How do you get into your mid-late 30s in the US and never had a drivers license and don't even know where the gas and brake pedal is?
    Yet people do it now. You hire it out.
    Bob
    True indeed. Many of the younger generation have a very different view of the automobile and one I talked to said a Tesla is the perfect car for those who hate cars.

    If it seems I am ranting that is not my intent. Electric vehicles do have many advantages for some situations. They are ideal for stop and start driving such as city delivery vans and a huge advantage for hybrids etc. is that electric motors are ideal for moving a load from a dead stop. As many EV owners have found out however an IC engine is superior for high speed driving and long distance travel.

    While it is true that no one on THIS thread seems to be suggesting that all cars should be replaced with EVs, that was not the case with some other threads where people suggested exactly that and even predicted that soon even all aircraft, ships, and even trains would be powered by batteries. The range issue was addressed by several posters with schemes for swapping batteries at a gas station type facility. Outside of PM I am barraged with people suggesting we must all switch to BEVs including opinion pieces in the local paper so I may be a bit more sensitive than others. I am not against electric vehicles per se but I am very much against forcing people to use them.

    It has also been discussed hers that some cities and even countries are thinking of banning all non-electric vehicles. When powerful political leaders begin to talk this way it becomes more than just opinion.

    These Are the Countries That Plan to Ban Non-Electrified Vehicles - The Drive

    Paris to ban non electric vehicles altogether from 2030

    Oxford to become the first UK city to ban all petrol and diesel vehicles by 2020 | London Evening Standard

    Electric dream: Britain to ban new petrol and hybrid cars from 2035

    L.A. Mayor Garcetti’s ‘Green New Deal’ would phase out gas-fueled cars - Los Angeles Times

  14. #473
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Eastern Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    4,908
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4868
    Likes (Received)
    4864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Scott, you will make up anything, believe any BS that shows BEV in a bad light, that is a rant.

    I feel no compunction to shore up your arguments, do it yourself

    Power outages? Lessee, what else doesn't wok in power outages.......oh yeah, gas pumps

    I am sure it makes you feel better to personally discount others arguments, but it makes you no more convincing
    While that is true many high volume stations have invested in backup generators so they won't lose the revenue not only from gas sales but also the highly profitable food and convenience store items. Gas pumps take relatively tiny amounts of electricity compared to charging even a small BEV. The loss of even 2 days revenue would almost pay for the generator but as one owner said worse yet is if the customers get used to going elsewhere during a lengthy outage they might not come back.

  15. #474
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Edison Washington USA
    Posts
    10,463
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    989
    Likes (Received)
    5480

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adh2000 View Post
    The counter to this though is the battery itself. Anyone who has ever owned an electric forklift knows it. There's no practical way to fix the battery, repair the battery, or upgrade the battery. Over time the battery gets worse and worse and some point the forklift, or car, is totaled because the battery is bad. Buy a used electric forklift and price a battery replacement. Cheaper to buy another forklift. Would you rather buy a used electric forklift or gas? I choose gas every time because it can be fixed and probably for not a lot of money. Bad battery, you're screwed.
    Are you so young that you have never replaced a short block in a car?
    Believe me, its a LOT more work than swapping a battery.
    And, when you pull the engine, inevitably, you also find you need to replace about half the stuff attached to it. New alternator, water pump, belts, hoses, rebuild the carb, remachine the head, new fuel pump, hey, the master brake cylinder is leaking, and where did my ball joints go? and that radiator, which didnt leak before I pulled the block, leaks now...

    Replacing a battery after ten or 12 years sounds simple, easy, and cheap, if you ask me.

    And, for the competition for a new electric car- the transmission rebuild price on a normal car, much less complete engine rebuild price,is often mindnumbingly expensive. Everybody I know who has had an engine die on any car newer than about 2005 is told that unless you buy your own engine from the scrapyard and do all the work yourself, a rebuilt engine swap is way more expensive than the car is worth. Easily 20 grand at the dealer.

    so, from my experience, replacing a battery is much cheaper than the equivalent costs of a similar scale of repair on any gas engined car made in the last 20 years.


    As I mentioned before I now DO have a BEV in the house.

    And, unlike many of you guys, I actually buy and drive cars.

    I have 4 cars right now. 3 of em I bought new, and the fourth, the BMW electric, my wife got as a barely used lease return, so, it, too, is an essentially new late model car.

    The real world economics of buying and driving cars in the last 20 years is very very different from, say, the 1960s, or even the 80s, which seems to be the reference point of many of the comments here.

    The designers and builders of electric cars are competing with the companies that sell new cars to people who buy new cars.
    Many of you guys do not seem to be those people, and your memories of how this market works seems to mostly date from the 70s.

    This is not the 70s. The average price of a new car, ANY new car, in 2020, is more than $35,000.
    Many many people (as in, millions of americans, every year) routinely spend $40 k to $100k for cars that are basically not repairable.
    Certainly, many people who paid 20 grand for a used electric car, drove it for five years, and then are told its $15k for a new battery, are going to do exactly the same thing they would do if they paid 20 grand for a used toyota, and are told its $12k to do an engine swap. They are gonna junk the car and buy a new one. This is normal, and has always been normal.
    Otherwise, the highways would be clogged with Ford Falcons and Rambler Ambassadors.
    Cars reach a point where it doesnt make economic sense to fix them.
    They always have, and, in the good old days, it used to be at 100,000 miles.
    I owned a good dozen classic american cars I bought for a grand or less, because they had over a hundred grand on em, and were considered worthless by their owners. In the sixties and seventies, you could often get 5 year old cars for basically nothing, because they werent worth fixing.


    I have a friend whose fancy double manual / semi-automatic 8 speed Porsche Transmission, on his 5 year old used car, went out. The dealer says- this is not a rebuildable part. A new one costs $30,000. This is the automotive market today.
    Of course, its an incredibly complicated dual clutch transmission- but people bought something like 200,000 of em in 2018.
    Porsche Dual-Clutch Transmission Is Becoming Even More Popular | Porsche Christophorus

    new cars are expensive
    parts for new cars are expensive.
    electric cars have fewer parts, and less things wear out under normal use.
    this appeals to many people.
    fact.

  16. Likes daryl bane, TeachMePlease, gustafson liked this post
  17. #475
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    People's Republic
    Posts
    3,770
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    330
    Likes (Received)
    2409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    While that is true many high volume stations have invested in backup generators so they won't lose the revenue not only from gas sales but also the highly profitable food and convenience store items. Gas pumps take relatively tiny amounts of electricity compared to charging even a small BEV. The loss of even 2 days revenue would almost pay for the generator but as one owner said worse yet is if the customers get used to going elsewhere during a lengthy outage they might not come back.
    And many homeowners have invested in backup generators, I mean, what exactly is your point?

  18. #476
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Eastern Massachusetts, USA
    Posts
    4,908
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4868
    Likes (Received)
    4864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    And many homeowners have invested in backup generators, I mean, what exactly is your point?
    Can supply the minimum requirements for a small gas station. Can fuel dozens of vehicles per hour.

    Amazon.com: Champion 4000-Watt RV Ready DH Series Open Frame Inverter with Quiet Technology: Garden & Outdoor



    Will run ONE Level 2 charger. Can fully charge most EVs in 3-5 hours.

    Amazon.com : Champion 12, 000-Watt Portable Generator with Electric Start and Lift Hook : Garden & Outdoor

  19. #477
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES MINOR OUTLYING ISLANDS
    Posts
    3,755
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Many of you guys do not seem to be those people, and your memories of how this market works seems to mostly date from the 70s.
    seventies.jpg

    People try to put us d-d-down, just because we get around.

    Things they do look awful c-c-cold, I hope I .... uh-oh !

  20. #478
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    People's Republic
    Posts
    3,770
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    330
    Likes (Received)
    2409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Can supply the minimum requirements for a small gas station. Can fuel dozens of vehicles per hour.

    Amazon.com: Champion 4000-Watt RV Ready DH Series Open Frame Inverter with Quiet Technology: Garden & Outdoor



    Will run ONE Level 2 charger. Can fully charge most EVs in 3-5 hours.

    Amazon.com : Champion 12, 000-Watt Portable Generator with Electric Start and Lift Hook : Garden & Outdoor
    I like to pretend you have a brain because you can, like type in the english language and all, so the only assumption is you cannot read


    one does not, ever need, to charge an EV at home in 3-5 hours, in a power outage

    no real point

    you keep coming up with wildly extreme examples

    You drive home, at the end of charge, while the world around you is on fire, and the power is out, OMG, you forgot to charge your EV.

    IT is just as likely in similar situations, that you would run out of gas, because you forgot to fill your car and cannot get to the station

    they are thoroughly unconvincing

    I am sure, somehow, inside your head, it makes sense.

    Outside of your skull it does not

  21. #479
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Maryland- USA
    Posts
    3,861
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2088
    Likes (Received)
    2378

    Default

    It’s interesting some of the birds which are coming home to roost.
    Large swaths of Mexico City are subsiding as much as one inch per month, while the aquifer the population depends on is nearing total collapse.

    Some real stresses are nigh- we need government agencies to my mind which are outside of the DOD to be thinking and planning for how these changes are going to effect the status of making a buck and meeting the country’s needs in the 10-50 year time frame.

  22. Likes Ries liked this post
  23. #480
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Edison Washington USA
    Posts
    10,463
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    989
    Likes (Received)
    5480

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    seventies.jpg

    People try to put us d-d-down, just because we get around.

    Things they do look awful c-c-cold, I hope I .... uh-oh !
    I saw the Beatles play live.
    And yet, somehow, I can still figure out how to download an app on my phone.
    I still be getting around.

    I have just busted my knuckles enough on old rusty generator bolts.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •