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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The old one. The new one is no doubt technically superior but the old one has a certain class. They are very popular with Tesla employees and there are usually several see charging at the headquarters.
    As an aside....what is the employee turnover rate at Tesla motors ?

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    Look at military films. How many vehicles have jerry cans strapped to them.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    As an aside....what is the employee turnover rate at Tesla motors ?
    Floor or above?
    Floor worker goodbye rate seems lower than normal.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Look at military films. How many vehicles have jerry cans strapped to them.

    Tom
    … and as far as me keeping a chainsaw in my truck, no worries, I keep the goalie
    mask at home....

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Floor or above?
    Floor worker goodbye rate seems lower than normal.
    Bob
    I was wondering about the engineering staff that makes it happen, the product design engineers (and the production engineering staff).

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    Wanted ....Live wires and bright sparks for lekky car plant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    So a little 25 pound generator in the back of your EV when going outside normal is not an option?
    Sure range and charging limited but there are options, backups and ways out.
    Just as there is in your plane, boat, bike or sled.
    You have never been there and stranded. That is an impressive record.
    Many of us have stories. For some those stories may be part of being alive. Others are the never failed, never risked and full on safety guy which I do admit to not understating.

    Get this in spades, I do not like electric cars but your arguments are faulty.
    Be aware that when pressed you did not need to carry two-stoke oil on the bike. Plain 10W30 works, it just does not burn so clean and smokes a lot.
    Bob
    A 25 pound generator likely wouldn't do much to charge an EV and if it was an inverter type it might fail with such a load.

    I didn't say I've never been stranded. I said I've never been stranded by running out of gas. Plenty else can go wrong with vehicles and I've had my share, including the time an aftermarket ignition failed on a lonely back road in the middle of a snowstorm. Fortunately I had left the stock ignition in place per the instructions to run the tach and I was able to get my tools and reconnect as stock. When I later opened up the Mostly Shit Device to see if I could repair it I found they had mounted a TO-220 power device to the aluminum case with ONE screw to act as a heat sink. After seeing how poorly it was built I trash canned it.

    With the dirt bikes we carried spare plugs etc. and minimal tools but still sometimes couldn't get running again. One time I had to tow a buddy out by tying together 2 web belts as a tow line. It was slow going and not too easy with such a short tow line but it got him back from several miles out. Another time I had to use my belt to help secure the seat after the mounting bolts sheared when a jump went wrong. We usually stood on the pegs on rough terrain but I couldn't leave the seat behind. The bikes often took a beating but we usually could patch them up enough to limp back. There wasn't much storage space but we usually had tape, iron wire, and cable ties tucked away. An old biker trick is to wrap several turns of duct tape and electrical tape around the handle of your adjustable wrench. Even a couple feet is a lifesaver when you need it. I always carry a roll in my car and it comes in handy. One time I had to tape my bow quiver on after a mounting stud snapped in the cold just before a shoot.

    Life can throw a lot of surprises at you but having a few things like iron wire, duct tape, tie wraps and a few tools can sometimes get you going again. In a pinch I've improvised oil funnels from a water bottle, foil or even rolled up paper. Ever try to pour from the bottle with most modern cars?

    PS: Why would I want to use 10W30 when I could wrap a small bottle of the good stuff in a shop rag and wedge it under the air cleaner? Besides, most gas stations used to have at least a few bottles of 2-cycle oil if I didn't have any but we preferred to use the good stuff in those expensive engines. 10W30 and even cheap 2-cycle oil increase the risk of fouling plugs, even the platinum ones we used.

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    Probably been said before but....with the Daytona 500 on the TeeVee lately, racing helps
    develop cars.

    Government money can only go so far, create a race for them, rent the Daytona, Indy and other race courses, and race the damn things.

    Want faster charging ? Longer range ? More reliability ?
    Put them to the best testing known, Held on Sundays no less.

    and let everyone SEE what they can & cannot doo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    A 25 pound generator likely wouldn't do much to charge an EV and if it was an inverter type it might fail with such a load.

    I didn't say I've never been stranded. I said I've never been stranded by running out of gas. Plenty else can go wrong with vehicles and I've had my share, including the time an aftermarket ignition failed on a lonely back road in the middle of a snowstorm. Fortunately I had left the stock ignition in place per the instructions to run the tach and I was able to get my tools and reconnect as stock. When I later opened up the Mostly Shit Device to see if I could repair it I found they had mounted a TO-220 power device to the aluminum case with ONE screw to act as a heat sink. After seeing how poorly it was built I trash canned it.

    With the dirt bikes we carried spare plugs etc. and minimal tools but still sometimes couldn't get running again. One time I had to tow a buddy out by tying together 2 web belts as a tow line. It was slow going and not too easy with such a short tow line but it got him back from several miles out. Another time I had to use my belt to help secure the seat after the mounting bolts sheared when a jump went wrong. We usually stood on the pegs on rough terrain but I couldn't leave the seat behind. The bikes often took a beating but we usually could patch them up enough to limp back. There wasn't much storage space but we usually had tape, iron wire, and cable ties tucked away. An old biker trick is to wrap several turns of duct tape and electrical tape around the handle of your adjustable wrench. Even a couple feet is a lifesaver when you need it. I always carry a roll in my car and it comes in handy. One time I had to tape my bow quiver on after a mounting stud snapped in the cold just before a shoot.

    Life can throw a lot of surprises at you but having a few things like iron wire, duct tape, tie wraps and a few tools can sometimes get you going again. In a pinch I've improvised oil funnels from a water bottle, foil or even rolled up paper. Ever try to pour from the bottle with most modern cars?

    PS: Why would I want to use 10W30 when I could wrap a small bottle of the good stuff in a shop rag and wedge it under the air cleaner? Besides, most gas stations used to have at least a few bottles of 2-cycle oil if I didn't have any but we preferred to use the good stuff in those expensive engines. 10W30 and even cheap 2-cycle oil increase the risk of fouling plugs, even the platinum ones we used.

    Funny I have had the same experience with aftermarket ignition. Great, smooth high end, then one day it falls apart.
    When you have to keep your points in the glove box at all times, you might as well just leave them where they belong.


    You are correct a 25 pound generator would not do much, but in an emergency anywhere but the high desert, I think it would probably get you down the road in a while.

    Generators are not built for lightness, but I think you could probably build a generator in the 40-50 pound range with current technology that would pump enough watts to run you down the road.I am judging this by the availability of 17 pound 500 amp alternators and the assumed weight of small motorcycle type engines that would be enough to run such an alternator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Generators are not built for lightness, but I think you could probably build a generator in the 40-50 pound range with current technology that would pump enough watts to run you down the road.
    The 2200 watt Honda is 45 lbs, the 1000 watt one is 30. The thousand watter is pretty handy and very quiet.

    It's a lot nicer to charge the batteries than the ol' 6-71. 2 8D's don't take that long ... those are hundred pounders, decent size batteries for auxiliaries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Funny I have had the same experience with aftermarket ignition. Great, smooth high end, then one day it falls apart.
    When you have to keep your points in the glove box at all times, you might as well just leave them where they belong.


    You are correct a 25 pound generator would not do much, but in an emergency anywhere but the high desert, I think it would probably get you down the road in a while.

    Generators are not built for lightness, but I think you could probably build a generator in the 40-50 pound range with current technology that would pump enough watts to run you down the road.I am judging this by the availability of 17 pound 500 amp alternators and the assumed weight of small motorcycle type engines that would be enough to run such an alternator.
    If you were going to go into remote places with an EV it would probably be best to build such a generator using a high voltage alternator that could directly dc charge the battery pack. Eliminating conversion losses would improve efficiency, which would be critical for such an application. Best bet for power would be a small 2-cycle such as a large chainsaw engine or similar. It wouldn't surprise me if some engineer who likes EVs and remote camping were already trying to put something together along those lines.

    PS: The vehicle in the case I mentioned already did have electronic ignition. I added the aftermarket unit as a booster for more power.

    The best aftermarket ignition I ever had was a Heathkit build it yourself version of the old Delta Mark 10 capacitor discharge unit. It had a bypass switch so you could set the dwell of the points and in an emergency it could be switched back to points in seconds. I gave it to a friend after I bought a car without points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    If you were going to go into remote places with an EV it would probably be best to build such a generator using a high voltage alternator that could directly dc charge the battery pack. .
    Was simply pointing out that without some future tech, the wattage per pound was available. I doubt your average EV owner has any interest in 2 strokes.

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    Some pretty wild solutions to hypothetical non-problems.

    In real life-
    My wife drives the electric BMW when it makes sense.
    When it doesnt, she takes the Honda.

    My friend Eric drives his electric Chevy Bolt with its 225 mile range, probably 90% of the time, but when he needs to, he takes the Toyota pickup.

    My friend Susan drives her Tesla, with its 300 mile range, pretty much everywhere, but she also has the Subaru Tribeca.

    My friend Karen drives her Tesla, as her main car, and it has enough range for her driving. She hasnt had an issue yet, in several years of ownership, needing a charge and not having one.

    I am sure I have at least a dozen more friends who have somehow managed to avoid towing trailers with generators, or winding out 100 miles of extension cord.

    In the real world, most people who decide to buy electric cars either have short daily drives, or other vehicles, or charging at work, and have actually thought about all this stuff before deciding to go electric.

    It aint rocket science.

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    Musks new German megafactory has hit a rough patch...and is surely going to be a focus of violent environmental protests.........Reading about it,he has cut down trees without an environmental approval,using some political chicanery to get a "nolle prosequi" from the state heirachy.,but no federal approval to cut down some 750 ha of forest,where the green factory will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Musks new German megafactory has hit a rough patch...and is surely going to be a focus of violent environmental protests.........Reading about it,he has cut down trees without an environmental approval,using some political chicanery to get a "nolle prosequi" from the state heirachy.,but no federal approval to cut down some 750 ha of forest,where the green factory will be.
    I hope he wasnt using electric chainsaws- because then, he would need a Tom Swift turbo generator to charge them.
    Meanwhile just a bit down the road, Diamler and Audi and BMW and Porsche are all cranking out sneaky electric cars to foil Herr Musk and his evil plans even more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    I hope he wasnt using electric chainsaws- because then, he would need a Tom Swift turbo generator to charge them.
    Meanwhile just a bit down the road, Diamler and Audi and BMW and Porsche are all cranking out sneaky electric cars to foil Herr Musk and his evil plans even more.
    However it does look as though those German EVs (including Tesla) will cost more to operate if they have to charge away from home.

    IONITY network dramatically increases EV fast charging costs | Fleet Europe

    One of the true tests of EVs will be how they would fare in a marketplace where there were no longer special deals or subsidies for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    However it does look as though those German EVs (including Tesla) will cost more to operate if they have to charge away from home.

    IONITY network dramatically increases EV fast charging costs | Fleet Europe

    One of the true tests of EVs will be how they would fare in a marketplace where there were no longer special deals or subsidies for them.
    the new Porsche Taycan will sell for between $160,000 and $241,000. You really think the buyers are influenced by a small tax break? The Audi all electric car comes out soon. $75,000, but there are always options and upgrades on pretty much every car on the lot.

    But as Hanermo has mentioned, there are a lot of free charging points in Europe, and Europe is smaller and distances are shorter.

    Again, people who choose to buy electric cars have already checked out how their local infrastructure affects their choice.

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    People from out of the area may look at Tesla pay and think it is high but housing costs there are fairly high. A 3 bedroom house probably starts around 600-750,000. So property taxes could be $1,000 a month at 2%. Many workers commute in 90 miles or more from more affordable areas.
    Bil lD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Are you so young that you have never replaced a short block in a car?
    Believe me, its a LOT more work than swapping a battery.
    And, when you pull the engine, inevitably, you also find you need to replace about half the stuff attached to it. New alternator, water pump, belts, hoses, rebuild the carb, remachine the head, new fuel pump, hey, the master brake cylinder is leaking, and where did my ball joints go? and that radiator, which didnt leak before I pulled the block, leaks now...

    Replacing a battery after ten or 12 years sounds simple, easy, and cheap, if you ask me.

    And, for the competition for a new electric car- the transmission rebuild price on a normal car, much less complete engine rebuild price,is often mindnumbingly expensive. Everybody I know who has had an engine die on any car newer than about 2005 is told that unless you buy your own engine from the scrapyard and do all the work yourself, a rebuilt engine swap is way more expensive than the car is worth. Easily 20 grand at the dealer.

    so, from my experience, replacing a battery is much cheaper than the equivalent costs of a similar scale of repair on any gas engined car made in the last 20 years.


    As I mentioned before I now DO have a BEV in the house.

    And, unlike many of you guys, I actually buy and drive cars.

    I have 4 cars right now. 3 of em I bought new, and the fourth, the BMW electric, my wife got as a barely used lease return, so, it, too, is an essentially new late model car.

    The real world economics of buying and driving cars in the last 20 years is very very different from, say, the 1960s, or even the 80s, which seems to be the reference point of many of the comments here.

    The designers and builders of electric cars are competing with the companies that sell new cars to people who buy new cars.
    Many of you guys do not seem to be those people, and your memories of how this market works seems to mostly date from the 70s.

    This is not the 70s. The average price of a new car, ANY new car, in 2020, is more than $35,000.
    Many many people (as in, millions of americans, every year) routinely spend $40 k to $100k for cars that are basically not repairable.
    Certainly, many people who paid 20 grand for a used electric car, drove it for five years, and then are told its $15k for a new battery, are going to do exactly the same thing they would do if they paid 20 grand for a used toyota, and are told its $12k to do an engine swap. They are gonna junk the car and buy a new one. This is normal, and has always been normal.
    Otherwise, the highways would be clogged with Ford Falcons and Rambler Ambassadors.
    Cars reach a point where it doesnt make economic sense to fix them.
    They always have, and, in the good old days, it used to be at 100,000 miles.
    I owned a good dozen classic american cars I bought for a grand or less, because they had over a hundred grand on em, and were considered worthless by their owners. In the sixties and seventies, you could often get 5 year old cars for basically nothing, because they werent worth fixing.


    I have a friend whose fancy double manual / semi-automatic 8 speed Porsche Transmission, on his 5 year old used car, went out. The dealer says- this is not a rebuildable part. A new one costs $30,000. This is the automotive market today.
    Of course, its an incredibly complicated dual clutch transmission- but people bought something like 200,000 of em in 2018.
    Porsche Dual-Clutch Transmission Is Becoming Even More Popular | Porsche Christophorus

    new cars are expensive
    parts for new cars are expensive.
    electric cars have fewer parts, and less things wear out under normal use.
    this appeals to many people.
    fact.
    It has been a while, but I wanted to respond. Good post and good points. No I am not so young that I have never replaced a short block. I wish. Retired mostly now. But as you point out in your own post, no one does that anymore. I sure don't. I buy new cars because I don't want to do that. You seem to be comparing maintenance work you did in the 70s with a new BEV, not a fair comparison. No one bores out the block on their Honda Odyssey and puts in oversize pistons. No one does that. New IC powered cars pretty much don't break, but as you say they can be mind numbingly expensive when they do. I had a 2001 Audi A8L, bought new, after about 12 years the transmission failed. Totalled the car.

    You say that by comparison replacing a battery is simple cheap and easy. Really? Have you replaced the battery in a Tesla Model S? I thought it was built into the floor or something and essentially not replaceable? Hopefully I'm wrong but my understanding is that a battery fail would total the car.

    The tone of your post seems to want to portray me as anti BEV which is not the case. I think they will take a large part of the market. I likely won't live to see it. I'm a fan of BEVs and would like to buy one. I haven't for two reasons. 1- I do not live in a temporate climate like you. Where I live it gets very cold in the winter and hot in the summer. Almost always I'm running either heat or AC in the car. My understanding is that this will decrease the range substantially, like half. I know someone with a Nissan Leaf. He's always freezing his ass off in that thing because he's afraid to run the heat for fear of running out of battery. The second reason is that I do not currently park in a garage. I can't really see myself running an SO cord out the basement window of the house through a snow bank and then plugging the car in. Maybe it's not that big a deal, I don't know. I usually remote start my car in the winter and let it idle for 10 minutes to melt the ice off the windshield. Would that work with a BEV? I don't know.

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    The batteries in a Tesla model S are replaceable but it is not a 5 minute job. It is a fairly major and expensive repair. What some posters here don't seem to understand is that a pattern of aggressive driving followed by quick charging will shorten battery life significantly. If charged overnight at home and driven normally with only occasional "play" the battery pack should last a long time. Tesla has put a lot of effort into the batteries. They are liquid cooled and can also be heated when necessary. The software can be adjusted to stretch range but at the expense of increased battery stress.

    As for BEVs and cold weather I used to read the blogs of a Norwegian Tesla enthusiast who experimented to stretch the vehicle's range and one schemes was to use a heated snowmobile suit instead of cabin heat. Years ago I had to drive an IC engine vehicle for a week in bitterly cold February weather with the heater core bypassed. The wait was necessary for parts and shop time to become available. I had to dress like an arctic explorer and be very careful not to frost the inside of the windshield with my breath. It just plain sucked.

    PS: Most BEV owners I've talked to try to heat the cabin and defrost windows on a cold morning while they are still hooked to the charger. Coming home after parking in an open lot all day is another matter but there is usually some solar heating to help.


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