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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I had this discussion one night with my boss. We were debating, "Which is better for the economy and society as a whole, spend money on social programs or spending money on defense projects?" This does get complicated in practice and most all would agree that killing people and breaking things is not good however there is a beneficial side to this that often gets ignored in discussions.
    There's another aspect to this also. Competition for resources is as old as man and so is waging warfare over those resources. A nation that totally abandoned the idea of military hardware could not only be barred from free travel (as in the South China sea?) and might even have their most valuable domestic assets seized by force. Back in the 1800s the young U.S. Navy went overseas to deal with the Barbary pirates who were seizing U.S. commercial vessels and selling the crews into slavery.

    "He who beats his swords into plowshares may someday be forced to do the plowing for those who kept their swords"

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    There's another aspect to this also. Competition for resources is as old as man and so is waging warfare over those resources. A nation that totally abandoned the idea of military hardware could not only be barred from free travel (as in the South China sea?) and might even have their most valuable domestic assets seized by force. Back in the 1800s the young U.S. Navy went overseas to deal with the Barbary pirates who were seizing U.S. commercial vessels and selling the crews into slavery.

    "He who beats his swords into plowshares may someday be forced to do the plowing for those who kept their swords"
    The Barbary Pirates is an excellent example. The European Monarchies were somewhat content to just keep paying the demanded annual ransoms where as the young US was still in a fighting for survival mode. I think it was Jefferson that referred to dealing with the Barbary Pirates as either requiring gold or gunpowder and it seemed that gunpowder spoke stronger.

    All of this gets down some facts that the world does contain some bad people that no matter what you do to appease them, they will always demand more until.

    The until becomes a big game of chicken or poker depending on who the game players are.

    The other issue is that you never want to negotiate from a position of perceived weakness. Doesn't mean you need to be strong or mean but appearing so helps immensely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    Actually it does. The Cold War and The Space Race did much to advance technology that is in common use around us today. Even the Internet is a result of DARPA though not very useful in the beginning. GPS is another. These are both consumer benefits-products. Now when you get into metallurgy,electronics, machining, and fabrication, there are even more examples such as the origins of CNC technology, satellite communications, etc.

    I had this discussion one night with my boss. We were debating, "Which is better for the economy and society as a whole, spend money on social programs or spending money on defense projects?" This does get complicated in practice and most all would agree that killing people and breaking things is not good however there is a beneficial side to this that often gets ignored in discussions.
    There's no denying that weapon manufacturing has produced beneficial products. The sad part is that those beneficial products weren't the goal.

    I wonder how many of survivors to the millions killed appreciated the beneficial side effects?

    How many people died in all the wars in the 20th century? - Quora

    By far the most costly war in terms of human life was World War II (1939–45), in which the total number of fatalities, including battle deaths and civilians of all countries, is estimated to have been 56.4 million, assuming 26.6 million Soviet fatalities and 7.8 million Chinese civilians were killed.

    I've never understood why military expense is referred to as "defense". Most is intended for aggression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    There's no denying that weapon manufacturing has produced beneficial products. The sad part is that those beneficial products weren't the goal.

    I wonder how many of survivors to the millions killed appreciated the beneficial side effects?

    How many people died in all the wars in the 20th century? - Quora

    By far the most costly war in terms of human life was World War II (1939–45), in which the total number of fatalities, including battle deaths and civilians of all countries, is estimated to have been 56.4 million, assuming 26.6 million Soviet fatalities and 7.8 million Chinese civilians were killed.

    I've never understood why military expense is referred to as "defense". Most is intended for aggression.
    The development of the weapons in of themselves did not directly cause the war causalities. It was when the politicians got involved with the military that war began. WWI was a family dispute with the armistice agreement laying the foundation for WWII. WWII laid the foundation for many of today's problems.

    You still get back to the question," Which hurts worse, winning or losing?"

    Nevil Chamberlain could have possibly prevented WWII if he would have taken action at the appropriate time. He nor the British public had the stomach for what the price of action would have required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    The development of the weapons in of themselves did not directly cause the war causalities. It was when the politicians got involved with the military that war began. WWI was a family dispute with the armistice agreement laying the foundation for WWII. WWII laid the foundation for many of today's problems.

    You still get back to the question," Which hurts worse, winning or losing?"

    Nevil Chamberlain could have possibly prevented WWII if he would have taken action at the appropriate time. He nor the British public had the stomach for what the price of action would have required.
    You and I obviously see several things differently (being 77 years old gives me another perspective) so let's just leave it at that

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    Getting back to the F-35. It's much louder than the F-16 so how much stealth is there in a louder plane apart from the fact it's harder to detect from a distance?

    Couldn't a missile go after noise rather than heat?

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    far from knowing squat about it but would think by the time noise came into it it would already be a done deal....just like when USAF does a fly over here you hear the plane after its gone?

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    Modern fighters have supersonic capability so trying to aim by sound is a little like trying to duck high velocity bullets shot at you. The bullet strikes well before you hear the crack from the muzzle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    far from knowing squat about it but would think by the time noise came into it it would already be a done deal....just like when USAF does a fly over here you hear the plane after its gone?
    If flying low then they are fast. I live 25 km from an international airport and 25 km (in the opposite direction) from the Danish F-16 fighter base.

    I get a chance to see both types of planes (many more commercial) now and then. Once 2 F-16 planes flew so low over my house I could see the pilots. They weren't flying more than the speed of sound Fantastic.

    What I was thinking was that since radar isn't optimal for stealth planes then maybe a device located at distance that could pick up the probably special sound a particular plane makes.

    If that's possible the military is probably keeping it secret and if not then somebody somewhere will probably be working on something to detect.

    YouTube

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    No secret, they used that type of listening technology bewteen WW1 to mid WW2 before radar became more common and bombers flew higher.
    acoustic_locator_3.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    No secret, they used that type of listening technology bewteen WW1 to mid WW2 before radar became more common and bombers flew higher.
    acoustic_locator_3.jpg
    So "they" have had plenty of time for improvements

    Hmmm advanced satellite surveillance?

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    It seems like we can’t be too far from being able to view wave propagation, heat and moisture signature from space...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    It seems like we can’t be too far from being able to view wave propagation, heat and moisture signature from space...?
    We can already do that for many things but a jet is too small and fast to reliably locate in real time. Knowing where it's been isn't much use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    We can already do that for many things but a jet is too small and fast to reliably locate in real time. Knowing where it's been isn't much use.
    Horrible thought but that depends on what is used as retaliation knowing the area it came from.

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    A few random observations-

    There has been mention of the fight with the Barbary pirates. If you look into the whole story, this was one of the sickest, most disgusting episodes in the early days of the US. Stephen Decatur did his job well and was sold out, along with the local troops they recruited.

    I hate the whole military industrial complex and got out of it in 1962 by generating a job for myself in medical electronics. Nevertheless, we need some military. If we didn't have it, within months this country would be picked clean bones. However, this doesn't extend to arming petty dictators and bombing helpless cities.

    Spinoffs from military developments is nonsense. Some have happened, but at what cost? Having spent a large part of my life in some form of R&D, I can tell you that the best way to find a cure for cancer is to set out to find a cure for cancer, not to develop a bedbug poison and find out that it also attacks cancer cells.

    Back when we were all worried about nuclear war and school children were taught to shield themselves from radiation, I asked the question, if you were president and had confirmation that many Russian missiles were coming over the pole, should you launch our missiles? My answer was no. Between the deaths from radiation and the nuclear winter likely to follow, Communism and Capitalism would both be disfunctional and the old rivalry would no longer mean anything. The issue then would be survival of people anywhere. Launching missiles to punish people who probably had little to do with the decision to attack and were already suffering would be pointless. What we have to worry about is nutcases who regard nuking us as their first class ticket to paradise.

    In "Hitler and I" by Otto Strasser, he says the same things we see now, Hitler's tantrums and cruelty, irrational orders, etc. and he says that the Allies need to strike a decisive blow, taking a firm stand against Hitler and that a defeat then would prevent an extension of his influence. Same old stuff (yawn), except that it was written in 1939, when Hitler was at the top of his power.

    Bill

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    I haven't read every single post, but a few things come to mind...
    1) I'm really glad military decisions are not made on internet forums.
    2) It seems most here want to offer an opinion on the F35 without talking to pilots who fly them...and there aren't pilots that have only flown F35's, many go back to the F15...and I've never talked to a pilot of an F35 that was unhappy with the performance compared to other modern aircraft.

    3)The written history of wars and the politics behind them change on paper after it's over. Without being on the ground, it's hard to say what good or bad came from them to a certain degree.

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    Interesting items in the news lately re the F35. Apparently sales to Turkey are being cancelled because they recently bought Russian S-400 air defense systems. The given reason for the cancellation was the fear that the Russian system could be used to analyze the stealth capabilities of the F35 and the Russians would obtain the data.

    Apparently several nations are eagerly awaiting them. I can't find the link but I read a very favorable review by a Norwegian pilot who flew one in training in the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Interesting items in the news lately re the F35. Apparently sales to Turkey are being cancelled because they recently bought Russian S-400 air defense systems. The given reason for the cancellation was the fear that the Russian system could be used to analyze the stealth capabilities of the F35 and the Russians would obtain the data.

    Apparently several nations are eagerly awaiting them. I can't find the link but I read a very favorable review by a Norwegian pilot who flew one in training in the USA.
    Both Norway and Denmark have bought the F 35.

    Second set of F-35 stealth fighter jets arrive in Norway

    https://www.f35.com/global/participation/denmark

    Those here that are opposed to the F-35 are those living next to the military airport 25 km south of me. Seems they are much noisier than the F-16.

    Bit like building a house next to a pig farm and complaining about the smell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Bit like building a house next to a pig farm and complaining about the smell
    Get that problem around here a lot with some developer buying up a bunch of land near a gun range that's been around for decades, putting up a bunch of cheap 0 Lot houses on it then the people who move in start petitioning for the gun range to close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Interesting items in the news lately re the F35. Apparently sales to Turkey are being cancelled because they recently bought Russian S-400 air defense systems. The given reason for the cancellation was the fear that the Russian system could be used to analyze the stealth capabilities of the F35 and the Russians would obtain the data.

    Apparently several nations are eagerly awaiting them. I can't find the link but I read a very favorable review by a Norwegian pilot who flew one in training in the USA.
    More to the no sale to Turkey story:
    Israel reportedly lobbied Washington to drop Turkey from F-35 program | The Times of Israel

    Same story here but with the addition of some good comments:
    Israel Fought Behind The Scenes To Drop Turkey From US F-35 Program: Report | Zero Hedge


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