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  1. #101
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    In 1993 when I quit to work for myself, I was making $28.50 an hour. They cut my vacation from 7 weeks to 6 weeks was the reason I quit. $25 an hour is nothing today. Pay $40+ an hour with good benefits and you won't have any problem finding employees. Unfortunately profit margins are too tight to pay living wages.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Sorry folks...why would someone go into a smelly, field that doesn't pay as well as retail?
    There was a time when manufacturing paid better than other fields, it doesn't now and never will.

    As I said, pee clean work at lowes make 13.50 or make 17.50 using actual skills starting at 4am.
    "it doesn't now and never will".......I'm beginning to think the same thing.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    I have a kid who lives in Seattle- Restaurants there start at 13 to 15 an hour, plus tips. He can make 200 bucks in a 4 hour shift some nights, as a server. Its clean, warm, you get a free dinner, and you dont get dirty. Thats what machine shops are competing with around here.

    The good employees have always been scarce on the ground. I have posted a couple of times here a quote from a study of machinists apprentices in 1900- and the stuff they said about the quality of worker they could get- my favorite quote is
    "lazy, idle, stupid, careless, vicious or any one of a dozen other indesirable things" and those were shops that paid well for the industry.

    Another good quote from about 1905-
    too few of the desirable types were interested in becoming machinists due to-
    1- lack of social status of machinists
    2-poor working condtions
    3-poor quality of apprentice training in many shops
    4-lack of opportunity for advancement of shop trained men
    5-the desire on the part of many boys to make as much money as possible in a short time

    thats 100 years ago- and things havent changed.

    If you pay enough, you can find good kids out there- but you have to have a civilized working environment too.

    There are shops near me that are notorious for racism, crappy worn out tools, boring repetitive work, low wages, and nasty jobs- and, surprise surprise, they are always hiring. The place that rewelds the aluminum beds of garbage trucks, with garbage remains still in em, all week every week, mysteriously constantly needs new employees.
    Same with the 'automation' scare these days. I just read a few articles from the late 1950's and automation was the big scare. Here it is 60 years later...

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffm8622 View Post
    Same with the 'automation' scare these days. I just read a few articles from the late 1950's and automation was the big scare. Here it is 60 years later...
    Well, the jokes on us there.

    We've reduced manufacturing jobs in the US by over 50% since 1950. Meanwhile, industrial output has grown 500%. Automation, efficiency, mechanization, economy of scale. call it what you like, more stuff being made by less people.

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  6. #105
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    And that's what creates the "hour glass" shape of jobs in mfg. People who can design, build, maintain, alter, automated processes, or even more, the machinery to perform them? From what I see pays relatively well, and certainly less boring that the green button pusher job.

    The green pushers, well, those jobs will continue to have value-add taken out of them, will continue to pay poorly relative to everything else. Those are the jobs that will increasingly be taken away by automation.

  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    All those Millennials making $25 to $50 or more per hour (most of it illegally tax free) waiting tables and bar tending as a "career" need to look around.

    What will they notice?

    Virtually all bar and restaurant workers making those big bucks are YOUNG.

    There simply isn't much opportunity for "older" folks in these types of easy, high-paying service jobs.

    After all these Millennials get some years on them - and are no longer needed down at the pub, they will realize it's going to be quite difficult to make the kind of money they had enjoyed making all those youthful years.

    Reality will be a bitter pill to swallow for those folks...but they will have to.
    Absolutely

    here is the problem, these are the jobs that are left.

    20 years ago I made money with 3 cnc mills and a few guys.

    I wouldn't even bother with a regular VMC because they were not productive enough to be worth the payment.

    After recovering from the Asian crisis and then 9/11 I made the conscious decision to go automation over employees and with my DMG[nearly Brother fast but could machine an engine block] if I chose to I could do the same amount of the same work that took 3 guys by myself. Guys that run slow VMCs and complain about profit margin are doing themselves and their employees no favors.
    I don't do high production stuff anymore, but the guys who are running state of the art either Brother style or pallet changing horizontals can compete with offshore production and pay people a decent wage. However, as you get more affordable robotics then the employee count will continue to drop

    Oh, and as a side note, when I went to Vegas some years back for a trade show, the number of 50 something cocktail waitresses was a little disconcerting.....

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  9. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffm8622 View Post
    Same with the 'automation' scare these days. I just read a few articles from the late 1950's and automation was the big scare. Here it is 60 years later...
    Well...it is where all those low skilled jobs went.
    So...it's a real thing...not a scare.

    I have personally made machinery that has put hundreds if not thousands of people out of work.

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  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    All those Millennials making $25 to $50 or more per hour (most of it illegally tax free) waiting tables and bar tending as a "career" need to look around.

    What will they notice?

    Virtually all bar and restaurant workers making those big bucks are YOUNG.

    There simply isn't much opportunity for "older" folks in these types of easy, high-paying service jobs.

    After all these Millennials get some years on them - and are no longer needed down at the pub, they will realize it's going to be quite difficult to make the kind of money they had enjoyed making all those youthful years.

    Reality will be a bitter pill to swallow for those folks...but they will have to.
    I dunno which IRS you guys have in Virginia, but the one we have here in Washington State taxes your tip income whether you claim it or not.
    All the restaurants my son has worked at report tip income to the IRS.
    So where exactly that "illegally tax free" stuff comes in, I dont know.
    I am doing his taxes with him right now, because I buy the Turbo Tax program, and I can assure you, restaurant tip income is taxed.

    And he is going to school part time while working, like most of the kids his age I know.
    He is going to a community college, so he wont have student loan debt.

    Our community college system here is full of kids who work several jobs and go to school too.
    I hire those kids every year to work in my shop.

    It has been my experience that most of the old guys who know everything about "millenials" havent spent even five minutes talking to one, much less worked with the vocational programs at their local schools.
    You ought to try it, they will surprise you.
    Not every one, of course- there will always be kids who spend their entire paycheck on crap they dont need- when I was a kid in the sixties, it was a car- but now that cars cost $35,000 on average, its more likely to be a phone...

  12. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    I dunno which IRS you guys have in Virginia, but the one we have here in Washington State taxes your tip income whether you claim it or not.
    All the restaurants my son has worked at report tip income to the IRS.
    So where exactly that "illegally tax free" stuff comes in, I dont know.
    I am doing his taxes with him right now, because I buy the Turbo Tax program, and I can assure you, restaurant tip income is taxed.

    And he is going to school part time while working, like most of the kids his age I know.
    He is going to a community college, so he wont have student loan debt.

    Our community college system here is full of kids who work several jobs and go to school too.
    I hire those kids every year to work in my shop.

    It has been my experience that most of the old guys who know everything about "millenials" havent spent even five minutes talking to one, much less worked with the vocational programs at their local schools.
    You ought to try it, they will surprise you.
    Not every one, of course- there will always be kids who spend their entire paycheck on crap they dont need- when I was a kid in the sixties, it was a car- but now that cars cost $35,000 on average, its more likely to be a phone...
    The milenials I've worked with have been good and solid.
    Often working harder than their more experienced coworkers.

  13. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Absolutely

    here is the problem, these are the jobs that are left.

    20 years ago I made money with 3 cnc mills and a few guys.

    I wouldn't even bother with a regular VMC because they were not productive enough to be worth the payment.

    After recovering from the Asian crisis and then 9/11 I made the conscious decision to go automation over employees and with my DMG[nearly Brother fast but could machine an engine block] if I chose to I could do the same amount of the same work that took 3 guys by myself. Guys that run slow VMCs and complain about profit margin are doing themselves and their employees no favors.
    I don't do high production stuff anymore, but the guys who are running state of the art either Brother style or pallet changing horizontals can compete with offshore production and pay people a decent wage. However, as you get more affordable robotics then the employee count will continue to drop

    Oh, and as a side note, when I went to Vegas some years back for a trade show, the number of 50 something cocktail waitresses was a little disconcerting.....
    Yep...jobs are gone, to young to retire.
    Hardware stores are full of older folks, when it used to be kids.
    Hell, we had to find a kid to get some thing off the top shelf because we aren't spring chickens any more.

  14. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Well, the jokes on us there.

    We've reduced manufacturing jobs in the US by over 50% since 1950. Meanwhile, industrial output has grown 500%. Automation, efficiency, mechanization, economy of scale. call it what you like, more stuff being made by less people.
    (also to miguels244) yes, all those things are true....I remember reading an article many years ago that stated between 1967 and 1987 there were about 180,000 manufacturing jobs lost in Chicago, due to automation and also overseas manufacturing.
    What I meant by the big 'scare' was, in the 1950's article the general scare was all the manufacturing jobs would be replaced by 'automation' within a few years.

  15. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    A right to work...for peanuts...state.
    Surprised it took you this long.
    Were you in the bathroom?

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